d_striker Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 It's clear that when the WSB states hands touching something, there is no requirement to look uprage/downrange. When feet are required to touch something, WSB can require facing uprange/downrange. -If feet are required to touch something and facing downrange is not specified, does default of facing downrange apply? -If feet are required to touch something while in surrender position, and facing downrange is not specified, does default of facing downrange apply? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I've asked Troy about start positions in the past. His response: "Once the stage briefing specifies any other start position, then all bets are off. If it specifies "toes on X marks", and nothing else, then the competitor can be turned however he wishes. He cannot, of course, start touching his gun or ammo." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amokscience Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 There are many 'feet touching' start positions where it would be impossible to comply with also facing downrange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) Here in Australia ( for IPSC) we normally use the 'RO will now demonstrate the start position' to the squad and then will not start them in any other position, which is also written into the stage brief. Edited October 12, 2015 by terrydoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) One thing that is brought up at most matches is the proper start position for a stage. The rulebook (8.2.2) states that "unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides," with an example provided for arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides. It's the "unless otherwise specified" part that confuses many. The key to understanding this rule is that it's not something to be parsed — if the WSB says where your feet go, but doesn't specify hand position, it does mean that the default is hands at sides, facing downrange. However, if the WSB spells out a hand position or any other position besides where to stand, then the default does not apply. Example: Standing with toes on marks — unless something else is specified, then the default is hands naturally at sides and facing downrange. Or standing against wall, hands on marks. This means that feet and head can be pointed in any direction — looking at targets, pointing the way to go, etc. This is an all or nothing rule — you must write your WSB so that the start position is clearly spelled out, in detail. If you don't, the competitor is free to interpret it as they wish, which can cause inconsistency and sometimes having to withdraw a stage from the match. ROs should not interpret or ad lib start positions to their liking. Clarify with the RM if there is any doubt, and get it written down. When designing stages, freestyle is key, but not so much when it comes to start positions, if you are particular about how each competitor starts. Attention to detail will prevent a lot of controversy. Troy McManus Director, National Range Officers Institute Edited October 12, 2015 by NickBlasta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted October 12, 2015 Author Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) One thing that is brought up at most matches is the proper start position for a stage. The rulebook (8.2.2) states that "unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides," with an example provided for arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides. It's the "unless otherwise specified" part that confuses many. The key to understanding this rule is that it's not something to be parsed — if the WSB says where your feet go, but doesn't specify hand position, it does mean that the default is hands at sides, facing downrange. However, if the WSB spells out a hand position or any other position besides where to stand, then the default does not apply. Example: Standing with toes on marks — unless something else is specified, then the default is hands naturally at sides and facing downrange. Or standing against wall, hands on marks. This means that feet and head can be pointed in any direction — looking at targets, pointing the way to go, etc. This is an all or nothing rule — you must write your WSB so that the start position is clearly spelled out, in detail. If you don't, the competitor is free to interpret it as they wish, which can cause inconsistency and sometimes having to withdraw a stage from the match. ROs should not interpret or ad lib start positions to their liking. Clarify with the RM if there is any doubt, and get it written down. When designing stages, freestyle is key, but not so much when it comes to start positions, if you are particular about how each competitor starts. Attention to detail will prevent a lot of controversy. Troy McManus Director, National Range Officers Institute The part in bold contradicts what has been said in this thread. Edited October 12, 2015 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 The part where your feet on Xs means facing down range, but hands on marks means facing where ever you want makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 One thing that is brought up at most matches is the proper start position for a stage. The rulebook (8.2.2) states that "unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides," with an example provided for arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides. It's the "unless otherwise specified" part that confuses many. The key to understanding this rule is that it's not something to be parsed — if the WSB says where your feet go, but doesn't specify hand position, it does mean that the default is hands at sides, facing downrange. However, if the WSB spells out a hand position or any other position besides where to stand, then the default does not apply. Example: Standing with toes on marks — unless something else is specified, then the default is hands naturally at sides and facing downrange. Or standing against wall, hands on marks. This means that feet and head can be pointed in any direction — looking at targets, pointing the way to go, etc. This is an all or nothing rule — you must write your WSB so that the start position is clearly spelled out, in detail. If you don't, the competitor is free to interpret it as they wish, which can cause inconsistency and sometimes having to withdraw a stage from the match. ROs should not interpret or ad lib start positions to their liking. Clarify with the RM if there is any doubt, and get it written down. When designing stages, freestyle is key, but not so much when it comes to start positions, if you are particular about how each competitor starts. Attention to detail will prevent a lot of controversy. Troy McManus Director, National Range Officers Institute The part in bold contradicts what has been said in this thread. Not really. I believe what Troy is getting at is that "toes on marks" specifies a location where the competitor is to assume the start position. Since nothing is specified for the actual start position (of the body, i.e. hand or foot or head position) the competitor needs to face downrange, etc. Whereas when the start specifies "standing against wall, hands on marks" that specifies both a location (against this specific wall, and more specifically in such a place against this wall that your hands can still reach the marks) as well as a start position for the shooters body (in that the hands are not hanging naturally at sides, but are touching specific marks.) If nothing is said about feet, or head position, those decisions are left to the competitor...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 The part in bold contradicts what has been said in this thread. Not really. I believe what Troy is getting at is that "toes on marks" specifies a location where the competitor is to assume the start position. Since nothing is specified for the actual start position (of the body, i.e. hand or foot or head position) the competitor needs to face downrange, etc. Whereas when the start specifies "standing against wall, hands on marks" that specifies both a location (against this specific wall, and more specifically in such a place against this wall that your hands can still reach the marks) as well as a start position for the shooters body (in that the hands are not hanging naturally at sides, but are touching specific marks.) If nothing is said about feet, or head position, those decisions are left to the competitor...... Read post #2: "Once the stage briefing specifies any other start position, then all bets are off. If it specifies "toes on X marks", and nothing else, then the competitor can be turned however he wishes. You don't see how that statement contradicts what Troy wrote which I bolded above? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Next you'll tell me that if I write "in Box A" the competitor can do anything he wants? I think from now on I'll just recommend that folks attend and RO class or three when they have rulebook questions..... There's a difference between specifying a start location -- your feet need to be touching marks at this location, or you need to be standing in this box or you need to be standing inside the free fire zone and specifying the position a competitor's body needs to be in...... In any event -- good ROs won't start you if you're not in compliance with the start position..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) Next you'll tell me that if I write "in Box A" the competitor can do anything he wants? I think from now on I'll just recommend that folks attend and RO class or three when they have rulebook questions..... There's a difference between specifying a start location -- your feet need to be touching marks at this location, or you need to be standing in this box or you need to be standing inside the free fire zone and specifying the position a competitor's body needs to be in...... In any event -- good ROs won't start you if you're not in compliance with the start position..... Not sure why you'd say that. I'm not telling anyone anything about this. I'm ASKING because I've heard mixed things out there. And I'm hearing mixed things here. Also, since you know more about rules than most everyone on here, why not just answer the two questions in first post so we can all be better RO's and not start someone that is not in compliance with the start position? Simple yes/no answers would suffice Edited October 13, 2015 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvc4you Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Sooo... If the briefing says "Toes on X" and nothing else, can I start with my hand on the gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 Sooo... If the briefing says "Toes on X" and nothing else, can I start with my hand on the gun? When are you ever allowed to start touching ammo or gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 The rule book is available here: http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-rules.php It reads: "8.2.3 A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the “Standby” command and before the “Start Signal” (except for unavoidable touch- ing with the lower arms)." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Well I'll venture into dangerous territory I guess. My opinion only. The rule says if not otherwise stated, and you use the words facing down or up range the the default position applies. Now if you say "facing up range toes touching rear fault line" then the rest of the default position applies. If you say toes touching rear fault line then I believe the rest is on the shooter since they have complied with the WSB. Using the Your mileage may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 Well I'll venture into dangerous territory I guess. My opinion only. The rule says if not otherwise stated, and you use the words facing down or up range the the default position applies. Now if you say "facing up range toes touching rear fault line" then the rest of the default position applies. If you say toes touching rear fault line then I believe the rest is on the shooter since they have complied with the WSB. Using the Your mileage may vary. Gary, perhaps you can answer this. Let's say the WSB states, "standing inside shooting area, heels touching x's." Can the shooter face any direction they want or does the default of facing downrange apply? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 My opinion as long as your heels are on "X's" the rest of the position is up to the shooter,. If the words "facing up or down range" are not used that takes the entirety of the default position out of the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 That's what I always thought also. But that article that Troy wrote contradicts this....Hence my confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Sometimes giving answere off the cuff leads to confusion. It seems there are two answers from Troy that are 180 degrees out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvc4you Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 ok. no touching but close ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 My opinion as long as your heels are on "X's" the rest of the position is up to the shooter,. If the words "facing up or down range" are not used that takes the entirety of the default position out of the picture. Agreed. The simplest thing would be for the rule to state"if facing downrange/uprange is not specified in the WSB then it's not required." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BARRYJ Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 A simple fix would be for there to be better written stage briefings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 A simple fix would be for there to be better written stage briefings. What is your response to the RO that says you have to face down range when the WSB states: "standing inside shooting area, heels touching x's." What is your suggestion for a better written WSB for this position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BARRYJ Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 By the time a shooter enters the start area, it's too late to write a better stage description. I would shoot it like he wanted me too, and if I felt strongly enough that it was wrong, I would find a range master. If all it says is standing inside shooting area with heels on x's, you should be able to face any way you want. But, why would you want to face anything other than downrange? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 But, why would you want to face anything other than downrange? Targets to the left or right, obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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