d_striker Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) All too often, especially lately, I notice RO's using their overlays incorrectly. Especially when using two overlays with one to indicate the perforation. For instance, when determining whether a hit is an 1.) Alpha/Charlie, 2.) Charlie/Delta, or 3.) Delta/Mike the overlay used to indicate the perf should be placed on the outer edge of the perf. In other words, on the side closer to the bullet hole. The overlay used to indicate the perf does not go on the inner edge of the perf or even down the middle. It goes on the very outer edge. As explained by an NROI instructor: "What you are looking for is if the hit touched the perf. The perf is "active" in this measurement.....The perf is deemed the scoring line and per 9.5.2 if it touches the scoring line it scores the higher value." Edited September 27, 2015 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 Pretty basic skill, using an overlay? Get a bad call or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted September 27, 2015 Author Share Posted September 27, 2015 Not often myself. But standing next to targets waiting to paste for other shooters, I've observed questionable overlay use. I'm not going to correct an RO on the matter when I'm not the shooter. The one time it happened to me at a major over the summer, I told the RO that it looked like he was placing his perf overlay on the wrong side as he was placing it on the inside of the perf. His reply was, "that's where it goes." I didn't argue with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 All too often, especially lately, I notice RO's using their overlays incorrectly. Especially when using two overlays with one to indicate the perforation. For instance, when determining whether a hit is an 1.) Alpha/Charlie, 2.) Charlie/Delta, or 3.) Delta/Mike the overlay used to indicate the perf should be placed on the outer edge of the perf. The overlay used to indicate the perf does not go on the inner edge of the perf or even down the middle. It goes on the very outer edge. As explained by an NROI instructor: "What you are looking for is if the hit touched the perf. The perf is "active" in this measurement.....The perf is deemed the scoring line and per 9.5.2 if it touches the scoring line it scores the higher value." Inner and outer is a tad confusing. I would say that the overlay goes on the side of the perf closest to the bullet hole, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted September 27, 2015 Author Share Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) All too often, especially lately, I notice RO's using their overlays incorrectly. Especially when using two overlays with one to indicate the perforation. For instance, when determining whether a hit is an 1.) Alpha/Charlie, 2.) Charlie/Delta, or 3.) Delta/Mike the overlay used to indicate the perf should be placed on the outer edge of the perf. The overlay used to indicate the perf does not go on the inner edge of the perf or even down the middle. It goes on the very outer edge. As explained by an NROI instructor: "What you are looking for is if the hit touched the perf. The perf is "active" in this measurement.....The perf is deemed the scoring line and per 9.5.2 if it touches the scoring line it scores the higher value."[/size] Inner and outer is a tad confusing. I would say that the overlay goes on the side of the perf closest to the bullet hole, no?You are correct. sorry. Edited OP for clarification. Edited September 27, 2015 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 so your score might be different, depending on what the perf is like on the particular brand or batch of targets you are using? It makes more sense to me to treat the perforation as an actual line (width of zero), rather than as an object with a width dimension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 (edited) so your score might be different, depending on what the perf is like on the particular brand or batch of targets you are using? Yup. If the targets are from a licensed supplier, the only things that are important for the shot under scrutiny is where the hole is and where the edge of the perf is on that particular target. Other targets are not relevant. Edited September 28, 2015 by ChuckS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 (edited) so your score might be different, depending on what the perf is like on the particular brand or batch of targets you are using? It makes more sense to me to treat the perforation as an actual line (width of zero), rather than as an object with a width dimension. Using overlays correctly doesn't matter what the perf is like from brand to brand. A line does not have a width of zero. Edited September 28, 2015 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 (edited) more sense to me to treat the perforation as an actual line (width of zero), rather than as an object with a width dimension. Using overlays correctly doesn't matter what the perf is like from brand to brand. A line does not have a width of zero. A line does in fact have a width of zero, from a mathematical standpoint, and treating it otherwise is a recipe for inconsistency imho. If you are treating the perf as an object that has width, and only measuring from one edge, then different perfs will yield different results. Nonetheless, I'm interested in this topic. Is your method of overlaying supported in the rulebook anywhere, or has it been published as NROI policy, or is it just the opinion of one NROI instructor? From my perspective, where to measure to doesn't seem like a big issue. What I more often see is people not being careful to get their eyes perpendicular to overlay. If one views from an angle, one will get a different perspective as to where the overlay rests in relation to the perf. Edited September 28, 2015 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 (edited) more sense to me to treat the perforation as an actual line (width of zero), rather than as an object with a width dimension. Using overlays correctly doesn't matter what the perf is like from brand to brand. A line does not have a width of zero. A line does in fact have a width of zero, from a mathematical standpoint, and treating it otherwise is a recipe for inconsistency imho. If you are treating the perf as an object that has width, and only measuring from one edge, then different perfs will yield different results. Nonetheless, I'm interested in this topic. Is your method of overlaying supported in the rulebook anywhere, or has it been published as NROI policy, or is it just the opinion of one NROI instructor? From my perspective, where to measure to doesn't seem like a big issue. What I more often see is people not being careful to get their eyes perpendicular to overlay. If one views from an angle, one will get a different perspective as to where the overlay rests in relation to the perf. Perhaps from a mathematical standpoint. My background is engineering and manufacturing within the medical device industry. Treating a line as having a width of zero on a critical tolerance could potentially result in catastrophic failure and possibly loss of life. In the case of a perf, it's easily apparent that it's not a width of zero. A piece of paper has a thickness of about .004". The width of the perf is much bigger than the thickness of a piece of paper. I couldn't find anything in the rulebook that describes how to use overlays. This information was from an RO class so perhaps it's just one instructor's opinion? Edited September 28, 2015 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 From the February 2014 handgun rules: 9.5.2 "If the bullet diameter of a hit on a scoring target touches the scoring linebetween two scoring areas, or the line between the non-scoring border and a scoring area, or if it crosses multiple scoring areas, it will be scored the higher value." The key word there is "touching" not "breaks". The line has a width, you can measure it. You only need to touch the line, therefore you would measure it from the side of the line closest to the hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 Thanks Pat. For the record, I measured the width of the perf best I could and came up with .030". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSteel Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 So based on the attached target specs, dimensions would indicate you are not scoring unless the perf is actually broken (contact on INSIDE line of perf). Outer ring indicates .5cm non scoring zone around outside edge of target and every spec target I checked tonight brings that measurement to inside line of perf??? Seems confusing to me..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 So based on the attached target specs, dimensions would indicate you are not scoring unless the perf is actually broken (contact on INSIDE line of perf). Outer ring indicates .5cm non scoring zone around outside edge of target and every spec target I checked tonight brings that measurement to inside line of perf??? Seems confusing to me..... Bullet hole only has to touch perf, not break it. I'm not sure why you're getting confused about the non scoring border. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSteel Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 (edited) Indication is .5cm NON scoring from edge. The targets I've measured means at .5cm the perf IS broken.. My confusion is that if that perf must be broken to score wouldn't the others be the same?? Again, the perf would be broken and inner line touched.... Not an R.O., just asking as a competitor..... Edited September 29, 2015 by NoSteel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 (edited) Indication is .5cm NON scoring from edge. The targets I've measured means at .5cm the perf IS broken.. My confusion is that if that perf must be broken to score wouldn't the others be the same?? Again, the perf would be broken and inner line touched.... Not an R.O., just asking as a competitor..... Not sure, but I think I understand what your asking. Just keep in mind that when the RO scores there is no interest in the exact measurement from the edge of the target to the perf when scoring for that particular target. The RO is is looking at wether the diameter of the hit touches the perf, The hit doesn't have to cross over to the middle or inside of the perf to count. In other words, get rid of any notion of a hole having to break the perf. Edited September 29, 2015 by grapemeister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 (edited) Indication is .5cm NON scoring from edge. The targets I've measured means at .5cm the perf IS broken.. My confusion is that if that perf must be broken to score wouldn't the others be the same?? Again, the perf would be broken and inner line touched.... Not an R.O., just asking as a competitor..... I think I see what you're asking now. I think you're assuming that the .5cm non scoring border is an absolute critical dimension. For all we know, it could be a dimension of .5cm with a tolerance +/- who knows what. All that matters is the perf. FWIW-I measured the targets I have and it's 5.2mm from edge to perf. Edited September 29, 2015 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 So based on the attached target specs, dimensions would indicate you are not scoring unless the perf is actually broken (contact on INSIDE line of perf). Outer ring indicates .5cm non scoring zone around outside edge of target and every spec target I checked tonight brings that measurement to inside line of perf??? Seems confusing to me..... Bullet hole only has to touch perf, not break it. I'm not sure why you're getting confused about the non scoring border. Most R.O.'s even C.R.O.'s I have seen score have said it has to break the perf. I will have to remember this rule and tab it in my rule book. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 So based on the attached target specs, dimensions would indicate you are not scoring unless the perf is actually broken (contact on INSIDE line of perf). Outer ring indicates .5cm non scoring zone around outside edge of target and every spec target I checked tonight brings that measurement to inside line of perf??? Seems confusing to me..... Bullet hole only has to touch perf, not break it. I'm not sure why you're getting confused about the non scoring border. Most R.O.'s even C.R.O.'s I have seen score have said it has to break the perf. I will have to remember this rule and tab it in my rule book. Thanks Disturbing to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 So based on the attached target specs, dimensions would indicate you are not scoring unless the perf is actually broken (contact on INSIDE line of perf). Outer ring indicates .5cm non scoring zone around outside edge of target and every spec target I checked tonight brings that measurement to inside line of perf??? Seems confusing to me..... Bullet hole only has to touch perf, not break it. I'm not sure why you're getting confused about the non scoring border. Most R.O.'s even C.R.O.'s I have seen score have said it has to break the perf. I will have to remember this rule and tab it in my rule book.Thanks Disturbing to say the least.I'm glad you said that Gary. I was going to suggest those folks need retrained. Hell, scoring targets is RO 101 and RMI's really drive it home in the course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWord Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 (edited) So based on the attached target specs, dimensions would indicate you are not scoring unless the perf is actually broken (contact on INSIDE line of perf). Outer ring indicates .5cm non scoring zone around outside edge of target and every spec target I checked tonight brings that measurement to inside line of perf??? Seems confusing to me..... Bullet hole only has to touch perf, not break it. I'm not sure why you're getting confused about the non scoring border. Most R.O.'s even C.R.O.'s I have seen score have said it has to break the perf. I will have to remember this rule and tab it in my rule book. Thanks Disturbing to say the least. Hmm, I guess we could hit it harder in class. Maybe some slides as examples? Yeah, that's the ticket. Hey, we do that already!!!!! I guess we will have to try harder. Where the "break" the line came from is a quantry. Maybe some older NRA scorers and their scoring plugs. It has never said that in our rulebooks back to 1986. (Rule 9.07 Line Shots: A shot on the target, the outside diameter which touches any scoring line, counts for the higher value. 3rd Edition January 1986.) I do not have an older rulebook than that, that's the one I learn on. Jay Edited September 29, 2015 by JayWord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 So based on the attached target specs, dimensions would indicate you are not scoring unless the perf is actually broken (contact on INSIDE line of perf). Outer ring indicates .5cm non scoring zone around outside edge of target and every spec target I checked tonight brings that measurement to inside line of perf??? Seems confusing to me..... Bullet hole only has to touch perf, not break it. I'm not sure why you're getting confused about the non scoring border. Most R.O.'s even C.R.O.'s I have seen score have said it has to break the perf. I will have to remember this rule and tab it in my rule book.Thanks Disturbing to say the least.I'm glad you said that Gary. I was going to suggest those folks need retrained. Hell, scoring targets is RO 101 and RMI's really drive it home in the course. The guy never said that they were certified... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 So based on the attached target specs, dimensions would indicate you are not scoring unless the perf is actually broken (contact on INSIDE line of perf). Outer ring indicates .5cm non scoring zone around outside edge of target and every spec target I checked tonight brings that measurement to inside line of perf??? Seems confusing to me..... Bullet hole only has to touch perf, not break it. I'm not sure why you're getting confused about the non scoring border. Most R.O.'s even C.R.O.'s I have seen score have said it has to break the perf. I will have to remember this rule and tab it in my rule book. Thanks Disturbing to say the least. Hmm, I guess we could hit it harder in class. Maybe some slides as examples? Yeah, that's the ticket. Hey, we do that already!!!!! Jay Somebody fell asleep Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSteel Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 So based on the attached target specs, dimensions would indicate you are not scoring unless the perf is actually broken (contact on INSIDE line of perf). Outer ring indicates .5cm non scoring zone around outside edge of target and every spec target I checked tonight brings that measurement to inside line of perf??? Seems confusing to me..... Bullet hole only has to touch perf, not break it. I'm not sure why you're getting confused about the non scoring border. Most R.O.'s even C.R.O.'s I have seen score have said it has to break the perf. I will have to remember this rule and tab it in my rule book.Thanks Disturbing to say the least.I'm glad you said that Gary. I was going to suggest those folks need retrained. Hell, scoring targets is RO 101 and RMI's really drive it home in the course. The guy never said that they were certified... For me, I indicated in my follow up that I'm not an RO, just a competitor wanting to know what is correct. I hear, " it didn't break the perf". All the time..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 So based on the attached target specs, dimensions would indicate you are not scoring unless the perf is actually broken (contact on INSIDE line of perf). Outer ring indicates .5cm non scoring zone around outside edge of target and every spec target I checked tonight brings that measurement to inside line of perf??? Seems confusing to me..... Bullet hole only has to touch perf, not break it. I'm not sure why you're getting confused about the non scoring border. Most R.O.'s even C.R.O.'s I have seen score have said it has to break the perf. I will have to remember this rule and tab it in my rule book.Thanks Disturbing to say the least.I'm glad you said that Gary. I was going to suggest those folks need retrained. Hell, scoring targets is RO 101 and RMI's really drive it home in the course. The guy never said that they were certified... He never said they weren't either. If somebody has heard a lot of RO's and CRO's misquote rules that's a problem no matter how you slice it. Either the Certified folks don't know the job or too many matches are running with non certified staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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