Why does SA/DA pistol fire hammer down on first shot in production

[Nik Habicht]

So basically you two don't have a clue how the pistols I'm talking about work, so you trot out "the rules"

Got it

I've played with Vlad's 75b and read a bit about the gun. I've got a clue as to how it was designed to work. None of that matters when I'm officiating a USPSA match -- because we fortunately don't write rules for inclusive divisions based on individual design characteristics or idiosyncrasies of the guns that can play in the division.

Suggesting that you don't want to hear about the rules -- that you're rejecting that argument -- however really suggests that you don't want to have the conversation.....

[Nik Habicht]

I'm so confused.

Really? At the start signal the gun needs to be in DA mode -- i.e. no selecting cocked and locked mode if available on your brand of handgun. Once the buzzer sounds, if you'd like to manually cock the hammer, have at it......

[d_striker]

I'm so confused.

Really? At the start signal the gun needs to be in DA mode -- i.e. no selecting cocked and locked mode if available on your brand of handgun. Once the buzzer sounds, if you'd like to manually cock the hammer, have at it......

Ok. I'm back on track. Sorry, I'm slow sometimes.

So it used to be first shot had to be DA but it was changed. I hear so many people say that first shot has to be DA so I always assumed it was true. Thought I even read it in the rulebook somewhere but I must have imagined it as I definitely couldn't find anything.

[fishsticks]

So basically you two don't have a clue how the pistols I'm talking about work, so you trot out "the rules"

Got it

Actually I do. I shoot a CZ in production. And, I hate range lawyering as much as the next guy.

Unfortunately we agree to play by the rules of the game or go home.

Is it inherently safe or not is irrelevant to the conversation. If you don't like the rules as written either work to get them changed or don't play.

[vixty]

I wonder if I was to drop my shadow after the make ready command and it landed on the hammer if it would set off the primer due to the extended firing pin. I understand that we lower the hammer to make it fair but is it really safe....who knows.

[elguapo]

Vixty, safety doesn't matter so long as the rules are followed.

[Nimitz]

care to point out a factual, known unsafe condition that arises by following USPSA rules?

[JAFO]

Not knowing much about CZ's, do 75's not have a firing pin block? A hammer resting on a firing pin in a loaded gun with no firing pin block would have a greater chance to go off if dropped on the hammer than if it was left at half-cock. If the 75 does have a firing pin block, then I don't really see the problem.

[d_striker]

Not knowing much about CZ's, do 75's not have a firing pin block? A hammer resting on a firing pin in a loaded gun with no firing pin block would have a greater chance to go off if dropped on the hammer than if it was left at half-cock. If the 75 does have a firing pin block, then I don't really see the problem.

SP01 Shadows don't have a firing pin block.

Pre B 75's don't have a block.

75B's have a block.

Non shadow SP01's have a block.

Not sure about SP01 Tacticals or 85's.

Edited August 6, 2015 by d_striker

[elguapo]

care to point out a factual, known unsafe condition that arises by following USPSA rules?

Yes. It is unsafe to lower the hammer all the way down to the firing pin on any non-FPB CZ 75 (every single Shadow, for instance).

It is unsafe for the same exact reason that it is unsafe to have a cartridge under the lowered hammer of any revolver with the original Colt Model of 1873's lockwork

Are you now understanding the reason for the half cock notch on CZs?

Edited August 6, 2015 by elguapo

[BeerBaron]

Can someone explain to me why is it unsafe to leave the hammer at the half cock notch on a 75B but not on a 75BD?

The half cock notch is identical on both. CZ designed the pistol to be carried with the hammer at half cock. That's where the decocker drops it to.

And no, "because the rules say so" is not an acceptable answer

no. a decocker model drops the hammer to half cock as they don't risk dropping the hammer to full cock. in a non-decocker gun the correct carry condition is with the hammer FULLY decocked.

as far as the rules they are totally correct. a DA/SA gun should start first shot double action. where it not for that first double action pull those guns wouldn't be allowed in production at all and would be in limited etc with all the other single action guns. it's not hard to understand really.

[BeerBaron]

care to point out a factual, known unsafe condition that arises by following USPSA rules?

Yes. It is unsafe to lower the hammer all the way down to the firing pin on any non-FPB CZ 75 (every single Shadow, for instance).

It is unsafe for the same exact reason that it is unsafe to have a cartridge under the lowered hammer of any revolver with the original Colt Model of 1873's lockwork

Are you now understanding the reason for the half cock notch on CZs?

here's the thing. the CZ75 etc are primarily carry guns/duty guns. they have firing pin blocks and the correct 'carry condition' is fully decocked (or if fitted with decocker lowered to half-cock). like IPSC, USPSA rules at least started in a practical environment and so the start condition for DA/SA guns mirrors it's usual carry condition. Now, the SP01 Shadow comes along purely designed for competition. since it's a competition gun, not a carry/duty gun they remove the firing pin block. no one is likely to actually carry it decocked. Yes we decock and start stages that way, but we're talking about a few moments of it sitting in the holster (not in a pocket or tucked into pants, or concealed holster etc) before the start. Yes, with an extended firing pin if it fell on the hammer somehow it 'could' go off. I also might get struck by lightening. and if really unlucky both things might happen at once. I have never heard of anyone dropping a decocked shadow and have it fire. have you?

Edited August 7, 2015 by BeerBaron

[elguapo]

care to point out a factual, known unsafe condition that arises by following USPSA rules?

Yes. It is unsafe to lower the hammer all the way down to the firing pin on any non-FPB CZ 75 (every single Shadow, for instance).

It is unsafe for the same exact reason that it is unsafe to have a cartridge under the lowered hammer of any revolver with the original Colt Model of 1873's lockwork

Are you now understanding the reason for the half cock notch on CZs?

here's the thing. the CZ75 etc are primarily carry guns/duty guns. they have firing pin blocks and the correct 'carry condition' is fully decocked (or if fitted with decocker lowered to half-cock). like IPSC, USPSA rules at least started in a practical environment and so the start condition for DA/SA guns mirrors it's usual carry condition. Now, the SP01 Shadow comes along purely designed for competition. since it's a competition gun, not a carry/duty gun they remove the firing pin block. no one is likely to actually carry it decocked. Yes we decock and start stages that way, but we're talking about a few moments of it sitting in the holster (not in a pocket or tucked into pants, or concealed holster etc) before the start. Yes, with an extended firing pin if it fell on the hammer somehow it 'could' go off. I also might get struck by lightening. and if really unlucky both things might happen at once. I have never heard of anyone dropping a decocked shadow and have it fire. have you?

You do realize that the fact that the ORIGINAL CZ 75 was made without a firing pin block renders your argument invalid, don't you?

Non-FPB CZs most certainly did not begin with the Shadows.........

And if the half cock notch is not needed on non-decocker CZs, as you erroneously claim, why has that notch been a feature of the CZ 75 from the very first one (which was not a decocker)?

Edited August 7, 2015 by elguapo

[mrpredictable]

Not knowing much about CZ's, do 75's not have a firing pin block? A hammer resting on a firing pin in a loaded gun with no firing pin block would have a greater chance to go off if dropped on the hammer than if it was left at half-cock. If the 75 does have a firing pin block, then I don't really see the problem.

SP01 Shadows don't have a firing pin block.

Pre B 75's don't have a block.

75B's have a block.

Non shadow SP01's have a block.

Not sure about SP01 Tacticals or 85's.

Sp01 and sp01 tactical have a FPB

85b has a block, 85c does not.

[PatJones]

I believe the CZ 75 has an inertial firing pin just like a 1911.

An inertial firing pin is not long enough to reach the primer with the hammer in the fully forward position. You need to hit the pin with enough energy for it to continue forward alone and strike the primer. This is not possible from the resting position, the rear of the slide is blocking forward movement.

If the hammer is at half cock, and it is struck hard enough to fail and move forward, there is potential to hit the firing pin hard enough to go bang.

[PatJones]

And if the half cock notch is not needed on non-decocker CZs, as you erroneously claim, why has that notch been a feature of the CZ 75 from the very first one (which was not a decocker)?

A half cock notch is a safety system. If the sear surface fails, it intercepts the sear and stops the hammer from continuing forward. It is a safety feature that has been common in hammer-fired arms since before self-contained cartridges.

Gunsmithing 101.

[bikerburgess]

^^^^^ this

[d_striker]

Not exactly.

Most SP01 shadows (CZC and AA) come with an extended firing pin. I just checked mine and the firing pin absolutely protrudes when the it's pressed flush from the rear.

Edited August 7, 2015 by d_striker

[BeerBaron]

care to point out a factual, known unsafe condition that arises by following USPSA rules?

Yes. It is unsafe to lower the hammer all the way down to the firing pin on any non-FPB CZ 75 (every single Shadow, for instance).

It is unsafe for the same exact reason that it is unsafe to have a cartridge under the lowered hammer of any revolver with the original Colt Model of 1873's lockwork

Are you now understanding the reason for the half cock notch on CZs?

here's the thing. the CZ75 etc are primarily carry guns/duty guns. they have firing pin blocks and the correct 'carry condition' is fully decocked (or if fitted with decocker lowered to half-cock). like IPSC, USPSA rules at least started in a practical environment and so the start condition for DA/SA guns mirrors it's usual carry condition. Now, the SP01 Shadow comes along purely designed for competition. since it's a competition gun, not a carry/duty gun they remove the firing pin block. no one is likely to actually carry it decocked. Yes we decock and start stages that way, but we're talking about a few moments of it sitting in the holster (not in a pocket or tucked into pants, or concealed holster etc) before the start. Yes, with an extended firing pin if it fell on the hammer somehow it 'could' go off. I also might get struck by lightening. and if really unlucky both things might happen at once. I have never heard of anyone dropping a decocked shadow and have it fire. have you?

You do realize that the fact that the ORIGINAL CZ 75 was made without a firing pin block renders your argument invalid, don't you?

Non-FPB CZs most certainly did not begin with the Shadows.........

And if the half cock notch is not needed on non-decocker CZs, as you erroneously claim, why has that notch been a feature of the CZ 75 from the very first one (which was not a decocker)?

Yes I know the 75 came without a fpb. And I never said the half cock notch was not needed. It has a very valid purpose which is to stop the hammer at half cock if for example you let it slip while decocking or if it was cocked and somehow hammer bounced of the sear blade. It has a place but when you decock the pistol manually you lower the hammer all the way.

[GForceLizard]

Yes I know the 75 came without a fpb. And I never said the half cock notch was not needed. It has a very valid purpose which is to stop the hammer at half cock if for example you let it slip while decocking or if it was cocked and somehow hammer bounced of the sear blade. It has a place but when you decock the pistol manually you lower the hammer all the way.

If there's a chance it can bounce off the sear then there's a chance it could bounce off the half cock. Nothing's perfect but the probability is very low. Anyone have any statistics on the number of accidents caused by a fully lowered hammer on a CZ with no FPB...

Of course the real answer is that if a DA/SA gun doesn't have a decocker or a FPB then it should be removed from the USPSA production list because it's unsafe.

Edited August 7, 2015 by GForceLizard

[BeerBaron]

Agreed but I believe the design is made so that if hammer was at half cock, bounced off and struck firing pin it would not have enough energy to ignite a primer. Now I agree that's pretty loose. Some primers are softer than others, some firing pins longer, some hammers heavier etc but that's the basic idea.

I've never heard of a da/SA non fpb cz setting a round off when loaded with hammer down. But that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Probability wise it seems pretty low risk to me.

[motosapiens]

I've never heard of a da/SA non fpb cz setting a round off when loaded with hammer down. But that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Probability wise it seems pretty low risk to me.

seems like a worthwhile project to get a non-fpb cz and a rubber mallet and try it out.

[d_striker]

Agreed but I believe the design is made so that if hammer was at half cock, bounced off and struck firing pin it would not have enough energy to ignite a primer. Now I agree that's pretty loose. Some primers are softer than others, some firing pins longer, some hammers heavier etc but that's the basic idea.

I've never heard of a da/SA non fpb cz setting a round off when loaded with hammer down. But that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Probability wise it seems pretty low risk to me.

I agree and don't think a CZ would have enough force to set off a primer from half cock. Of course there are many variables that would play into this though. Primer depth is the biggest factor I can think of.

For those that haven't seen a CZ at half cock, we're talking about a VERY small distance. It's not half the distance as the name would imply.

I've never heard of a da/SA non fpb cz setting a round off when loaded with hammer down. But that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Probability wise it seems pretty low risk to me.

seems like a worthwhile project to get a non-fpb cz and a rubber mallet and try it out.

Exactly what I was thinking.

I'm certain it would go off with enough abrupt force. The question is duplicating roughly the same abrupt force that it would be subjected to from falling onto the ground on the hammer.

Edited August 10, 2015 by d_striker

[Nimitz]

Yes I know the 75 came without a fpb. And I never said the half cock notch was not needed. It has a very valid purpose which is to stop the hammer at half cock if for example you let it slip while decocking or if it was cocked and somehow hammer bounced of the sear blade. It has a place but when you decock the pistol manually you lower the hammer all the way.

If there's a chance it can bounce off the sear then there's a chance it could bounce off the half cock. Nothing's perfect but the probability is very low. Anyone have any statistics on the number of accidents caused by a fully lowered hammer on a CZ with no FPB...

Of course the real answer is that if a DA/SA gun doesn't have a decocker or a FPB then it should be removed from the USPSA production list because it's unsafe.

that's certainly one way for Glocks to become competitive again ....

[d_striker]

Yes I know the 75 came without a fpb. And I never said the half cock notch was not needed. It has a very valid purpose which is to stop the hammer at half cock if for example you let it slip while decocking or if it was cocked and somehow hammer bounced of the sear blade. It has a place but when you decock the pistol manually you lower the hammer all the way.

If there's a chance it can bounce off the sear then there's a chance it could bounce off the half cock. Nothing's perfect but the probability is very low. Anyone have any statistics on the number of accidents caused by a fully lowered hammer on a CZ with no FPB...

Of course the real answer is that if a DA/SA gun doesn't have a decocker or a FPB then it should be removed from the USPSA production list because it's unsafe.

that's certainly one way for Glocks to become competitive again ....