Minimum trigger pull in Production?

[rvb]

Do all of you who support allowing 1911s and other single action guns in Production actually shoot Production as your primary division? I'm surprised there's actual support for this. And even if merging divisions wouldn't bother you, can't you objectively realize this would not be a good thing for the sport

Yes, I've primarily shot production for the last several years. A Glock even. I think you're kidding yourself if you think competing against a 1911 would put me at a significantly greater competitive disadvantage relative to a cz or tangfo. I'd rather have a deeper pool to play in.

"But DA!!!" .... Ha. It affects maybe a dozen shots over a several hundred round major match. That's basically the difference between the two divisions at this point as far as the gun is concerned.

-rvb

Edited July 29, 2015 by rvb

[peterthefish]

Anyone who says striker fired triggers can be as good as 1911 triggers is just not being honest.

I disagree. While there may not be any striker fired guns out there as good, the potential exists. If you look at the Walther PPQs firing mechanism, you can see that it would be readily adaptable to a (striker fired) 1911. While M&Ps and Glocks load the striker when pulling the trigger, the PPQ and XD (which I'm less intimately familiar with) are both true SA striker fired guns.

The PPQ actually fires by the trigger bar pushing back on the disconnector to release the sear which releases the fully cocked striker. It falls short of a 1911 because it uses a pivoting trigger, a coil trigger return spring that's harder to tweak than a 1911 seat spring, and because the safe-action style trigger isn't amenable to reducing pre-travel. On a PPQ, only about 8 oz of force is needed to trip the sear (https://lanzerbot.wordpress.com/2015/02/08/case-study-ppq-vs-vp9-trigger/) - the other 5 lbs is all in the trigger return spring.

With some minor re-engineering (the disconnector is triggered by the slide pushing down on the trigger bar allowing the sear to reset - this function would need to be separated to allow a true 1911 style trigger) it could be readily adapted to the 1911/2011 platform - the patent has expired.

I'd love to see STI put these guns out there and the reaction from all the production shooters who say the arms race is much ado about nothing when it became another 2011 dominated division.

Edited July 29, 2015 by peterthefish

[Southpaw]

Do all of you who support allowing 1911s and other single action guns in Production actually shoot Production as your primary division? I'm surprised there's actual support for this. And even if merging divisions wouldn't bother you, can't you objectively realize this would not be a good thing for the sport

Yes, I've primarily shot production for the last several years. A Glock even. I think you're kidding yourself if you think competing against a 1911 would put me at a significantly greater competitive disadvantage relative to a cz or tangfo. I'd rather have a deeper pool to play in.

"But DA!!!" .... Ha. It affects maybe a dozen shots over a several hundred round major match. That's basically the difference between the two divisions at this point as far as the gun is concerned.

-rvb

Doesn't this support exactly what I've been saying about the triggers in Production?

Have you ever shot a CZ Russel? The biggest difference between a factory pistol and a tuned accushadow is the hammer hooks, you can buy a race hammer or file them yourself, but a 2# SA pull is possible with nothing more than a file and sand paper. Accushadows cost $2K because people want them, they're not some magical supergun.

I wrote a beginner's tuner's guide to prove you can get top performance with a minimal investment: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=191773

Not really, I've put a few rounds through a friend's CZ, that's about it. I try to avoid shooting CZs and 2011s so I don't start wanting one .

[Nik Habicht]

Russell,

I was shooting Production shortly after its inception -- started right around 2002. Vanek triggers arrived on the scene around then, certainly by 2003-4; Ernest Langdon had a speed-bump (I think that's what it was called) trigger mod for Berettas, there's instructions for a 25 cent Glock trigger job on this forum from around that time, and a bunch of folks were tuning other blasters. Bruce Grey was working on Sigs, the S&W custom shop was doing excellent trigger work on the 4 digit autoloaders way before production was even conceived.....

Pursuit of great triggers is nothing new; it's been going on since the division started.....

I still think that most of what you need with any production platform, is new sights, a little trigger work, and some grip tape. Everything else is usually gravy....

[Southpaw]

Ha, I see this thread got some attention on a certain other forum where it looks like one or two people actually at least acknowledged that I might have a point (which is more than I can say for this thread ), but then that other thread devolved into I don't know what

And for the record I don't think I ever said Production is "messed up"/broken. I still enjoy shooting Production. I do think some of the rules could be improved upon. Is there anyone here who really thinks the Production rules are perfect as they are and can't possibly be improved upon...

Russell,

I was shooting Production shortly after its inception -- started right around 2002. Vanek triggers arrived on the scene around then, certainly by 2003-4; Ernest Langdon had a speed-bump (I think that's what it was called) trigger mod for Berettas, there's instructions for a 25 cent Glock trigger job on this forum from around that time, and a bunch of folks were tuning other blasters. Bruce Grey was working on Sigs, the S&W custom shop was doing excellent trigger work on the 4 digit autoloaders way before production was even conceived.....

Pursuit of great triggers is nothing new; it's been going on since the division started.....

I still think that most of what you need with any production platform, is new sights, a little trigger work, and some grip tape. Everything else is usually gravy....

Nik, thanks for the info. I didn't mean to imply that I thought everyone was running completely stock triggers in Production up until a few years ago. But most of those older trigger mods like you're describing still yield a trigger pull that I would say more or less suits a Production gun (at least the one's I've tried). The triggers I've felt on some tuned CZs just felt like a night and day difference to me and I'd say are more comparable to a 1911 trigger than most other Production triggers. And I'm not trying to single out CZ; I've heard you can get an awesome trigger on the XD as well, for example, but haven't personally tried one so can't comment on them.

I actually had a Beretta 92G Elite back around that time that had a trigger job done by Ernest Langdon (a 92FS was actually my first gun, hence the username which I now hate since I never shoot Berettas anymore ). I wouldn't say that trigger job was anything like what I've felt on a CZ, it was just a bit lighter and smoother than a normal Beretta, but I don't think I had his top of the line trigger job with the speed-bump thing. And I've done Glock 25 cent trigger jobs, not a dramatic improvement. Never tried a Vanek trigger, aren't those now banned in Production?

[rvb]

Doesn't this support exactly what I've been saying about the triggers

Not sure how you made that leap....

-rvb

[Southpaw]

Doesn't this support exactly what I've been saying about the triggers

Not sure how you made that leap....

-rvb

You said there's really no longer any difference between some triggers in Production and Single Stack so there's no harm in allowing 1911s in Production. But if we weren't allowed to have those kinds of triggers on Production guns wouldn't you feel differently? That seemed to be what you were saying. However, if we had to shoot closer to stock triggers in Production then I think a 1911 would have a significant advantage. And I agree the first DA trigger pull is not a big deal over the course of a whole match.

[rvb]

so if we "what if" the rules to death, my thoughts on merging division might change?? that's a far cry from saying I agree we should change the rules. Because I do not think a min trigger pull is a good idea.

You've got some weird circular logic going.... You're saying IF I agree w/ your min trigger pull, my idea on merging the divisions might change, hence, I must agree w/ your min trigger pull??

production equipment rules are fine. ss equipment rules are fine. merge the divisions and the scoring rules and you'd have a fun, deep division w/ lots of off-the-shelf guns legal to shoot in it. and we could continue to debate for years (or maybe finally answer?) the 8 major / 10 minor debate.

-rvb

[Southpaw]

I never said that you do/should agree with a minimum trigger pull. I said your statement seems to support my thoughts on the currently available triggers in Production.

[CHA-LEE]

Its hard enough to police the existing Production gun modification/upgrade Rules and the majority of them are not even policed at the club match level. Adding a trigger pull weight rule will just add to the list of rules that still don't get enforced/checked at the local club match level. From a top level competition perspective the trigger pull weight would have minimal if any difference in the overall match results. The top shooters will continue to beat everyone by a significant margin.

What will happen is the bulk of the lower classification shooters overall match performance would reduce because the light trigger they use to have was masking their poor trigger control/press skills. Why would we want to deploy a new trigger pull weight rule when it will pretty much be a kick in the nuts for the bulk of the shooters participating in the division?

The whole "Ultra Expensive ARMS RACE" argument is moot as well given that basic competition shooting gear components cost more than a trigger job. That and making a trigger lighter and smoother makes for a more enjoyable gun to shoot. We are participating in these matches to have fun and enjoy the guns we are shooting. Not be forced to shoot a gun with a crappy trigger as a failed attempt to level the paying field, which it won't do.

Edited July 29, 2015 by CHA-LEE

[zhunter]

Want to allow 1911's in Production Division, fine..... hammer down start! Have at it

[kneelingatlas]

Even if you leave 1911s out of it, I think 10 minor/8 major would do something to make the division more inclusive/interesting.

[Nik Habicht]

Even if you leave 1911s out of it, I think 10 minor/8 major would do something to make the division more inclusive/interesting.

Given popularity of the division -- a close second to Limited nationwide, and far ahead in some places -- I'm not certain that we need to be even more inclusive......

Production allows a ton more guns than SS -- so if we're going to make a division more inclusive, how about opening SS to all SS guns......

Heck you can shoot production with a wheel gun.....

[kneelingatlas]

Good point Nik

[Southpaw]

I just saw ChuckS's post in that Prod Nationals thread with the PDF on the philosophy behind IPSC Production division. I understand we don't have anything similar published for the intent/reasoning behind USPSA Production, but I thought that was a very interesting read and I agreed with a lot of it.

I've never shot a match under IPSC rules, but it sound like the IPSC Production rules make a lot more sense than the USPSA ones, except for having the trigger pull limit only on the first shot, that to me pretty much kills the whole division, I don't understand the logic behind that.

How do those who shoot both USPSA and IPSC Production feel about the different rules?

Its hard enough to police the existing Production gun modification/upgrade Rules and the majority of them are not even policed at the club match level. Adding a trigger pull weight rule will just add to the list of rules that still don't get enforced/checked at the local club match level. From a top level competition perspective the trigger pull weight would have minimal if any difference in the overall match results. The top shooters will continue to beat everyone by a significant margin.

What will happen is the bulk of the lower classification shooters overall match performance would reduce because the light trigger they use to have was masking their poor trigger control/press skills. Why would we want to deploy a new trigger pull weight rule when it will pretty much be a kick in the nuts for the bulk of the shooters participating in the division?

The whole "Ultra Expensive ARMS RACE" argument is moot as well given that basic competition shooting gear components cost more than a trigger job. That and making a trigger lighter and smoother makes for a more enjoyable gun to shoot. We are participating in these matches to have fun and enjoy the guns we are shooting. Not be forced to shoot a gun with a crappy trigger as a failed attempt to level the paying field, which it won't do.

I agree with most of this, maybe I wasn't clear about why I think a minimum trigger pull would be a good thing.

The same Production GMs would still be winning matches of course. And having a heavier trigger pull would affect worse shooters more. But this is Production division, I feel like that should test our ability to shoot guns with "production" triggers. If you can't handle a "real" trigger there are 4 other divisions you can choose to shoot where you can compensate for your poor trigger control with a super light, easy trigger. I like the idea of having some differentiation among our divisions, not coming up with mods to guns to make them more similar. If you can have triggers in Production comparable to what you can have in Limited/Open then now there's no division for triggers similar to what you find on normal factory guns. Why not have one division with stock triggers and if you can't handle a trigger like that choose one of the other 4 to compete in.

And again I'm not trying to "level the playing field", I'm trying to describe something that would make Production more about a shooter's performance/abilities than what gun he's shooting and what mods he's done to it.

[BritinUSA]

Having a better trigger makes it more fun, it doesn't make you a better shooter.

[Nik Habicht]

I just saw ChuckS's post in that Prod Nationals thread with the PDF on the philosophy behind IPSC Production division. I understand we don't have anything similar published for the intent/reasoning behind USPSA Production, but I thought that was a very interesting read and I agreed with a lot of it.

I've never shot a match under IPSC rules, but it sound like the IPSC Production rules make a lot more sense than the USPSA ones, except for having the trigger pull limit only on the first shot, that to me pretty much kills the whole division, I don't understand the logic behind that.

How do those who shoot both USPSA and IPSC Production feel about the different rules?

Its hard enough to police the existing Production gun modification/upgrade Rules and the majority of them are not even policed at the club match level. Adding a trigger pull weight rule will just add to the list of rules that still don't get enforced/checked at the local club match level. From a top level competition perspective the trigger pull weight would have minimal if any difference in the overall match results. The top shooters will continue to beat everyone by a significant margin.

What will happen is the bulk of the lower classification shooters overall match performance would reduce because the light trigger they use to have was masking their poor trigger control/press skills. Why would we want to deploy a new trigger pull weight rule when it will pretty much be a kick in the nuts for the bulk of the shooters participating in the division?

The whole "Ultra Expensive ARMS RACE" argument is moot as well given that basic competition shooting gear components cost more than a trigger job. That and making a trigger lighter and smoother makes for a more enjoyable gun to shoot. We are participating in these matches to have fun and enjoy the guns we are shooting. Not be forced to shoot a gun with a crappy trigger as a failed attempt to level the paying field, which it won't do.

I agree with most of this, maybe I wasn't clear about why I think a minimum trigger pull would be a good thing.

The same Production GMs would still be winning matches of course. And having a heavier trigger pull would affect worse shooters more. But this is Production division, I feel like that should test our ability to shoot guns with "production" triggers. If you can't handle a "real" trigger there are 4 other divisions you can choose to shoot where you can compensate for your poor trigger control with a super light, easy trigger. I like the idea of having some differentiation among our divisions, not coming up with mods to guns to make them more similar. If you can have triggers in Production comparable to what you can have in Limited/Open then now there's no division for triggers similar to what you find on normal factory guns. Why not have one division with stock triggers and if you can't handle a trigger like that choose one of the other 4 to compete in.

And again I'm not trying to "level the playing field", I'm trying to describe something that would make Production more about a shooter's performance/abilities than what gun he's shooting and what mods he's done to it.

Pretty much anywhere you end up -- you'll wind up making some guns less competitive.....

Set a 5 lb limit for the first shot -- and the advantage goes to traditional DA/SA guns -- which will have a much lighter pull for every subsequent shot......

Set a 5 lb limit for every shot -- and the striker fired auto may be the only option. Can you get a traditional DA/SA that heavy for the SA shots? And if you can, what will that first pull be like? 10 lbs?

If anyone were going to do it -- there's really only ways to set it: 5 lb first shot if the gun's DA/SA; 3 lb first shot if its striker fired. The DA/SA may be able to go lower than 3 for the SA shots, but the striker fired auto only has one pull to master.....

Realistically though -- it'll never change. Why? Because the BOD knows better than to annoy thousands of shooters who have spent as much as several hundred dollars to improve their triggers. How do we know this? Because the topic's come up a couple of times in the last 14 years and the Board was kind enough to listen to the voice of the membership....

[Southpaw]

Set a 5 lb limit for every shot -- and the striker fired auto may be the only option. Can you get a traditional DA/SA that heavy for the SA shots? And if you can, what will that first pull be like? 10 lbs?

Ha, walk into any random gun shop and try the triggers on a bunch of the the stock DA/SA guns in the case. I'll bet all or almost all of them will have >5lb. SA pulls. The only DA/SA gun I still own is a 92FS and it has a 5.25 lb. SA pull, and yes the DA is over 10 lbs. Other DA/SA guns I've owned over the years had similar stock trigger such as Sigs and HKs.

So since you're not allowed to modify the trigger at all in IPSC Production what are the triggers like on the most popular guns? You can't have the amazing triggers I've felt on CZ Custom guns, but what are the triggers like on the guns on their approved list? I see some Shadow models are allowed and some aren't, don't know enough about the differences. And I don't know what a stock Tanfo trigger feels like.

Although I would agree 5 lbs. would be a bit too high if the rule were for every shot since you could fail the trigger pull gauge just from having springs wear in and the trigger getting a bit lighter. I'd think 4 lbs. would be ok, or maybe 3.5lbs and then everyone can set theirs to around 4lbs. to account for variations in trigger pull gauges.

Realistically though -- it'll never change. Why? Because the BOD knows better than to annoy thousands of shooters who have spent as much as several hundred dollars to improve their triggers. How do we know this? Because the topic's come up a couple of times in the last 14 years and the Board was kind enough to listen to the voice of the membership....

I know it's never really going to change. I'm more interested in whether everyone likes the rules as they are or think it might've been a better idea to stick to more stock triggers from the start, and why? Which I suppose all boils down to what we all think is the intent/purpose for Production division...

[twodownzero]

I would totally support a 4 or 5 pound minimum trigger pull for Production. It's an unfortunate oversight that this was not part of the original rules. I would also support eliminating DOH holsters from Production so that the equipment rules would more closely mimic SS.

[Southpaw]

It took 44 posts, but finally I found one person who agrees with me! Thanks Tim

[d_striker]

The same Production GMs would still be winning matches of course. And having a heavier trigger pull would affect worse shooters more. But this is Production division, I feel like that should test our ability to shoot guns with "production" triggers. If you can't handle a "real" trigger there are 4 other divisions you can choose to shoot where you can compensate for your poor trigger control with a super light, easy trigger. I like the idea of having some differentiation among our divisions, not coming up with mods to guns to make them more similar. If you can have triggers in Production comparable to what you can have in Limited/Open then now there's no division for triggers similar to what you find on normal factory guns. Why not have one division with stock triggers and if you can't handle a trigger like that choose one of the other 4 to compete in.

And again I'm not trying to "level the playing field", I'm trying to describe something that would make Production more about a shooter's performance/abilities than what gun he's shooting and what mods he's done to it.

A "real" trigger? I'm not exactly sure what that means. I think by "real" you mean stock?

Where are you getting 4lbs though? I'm no pistol expert, but I've bought at least 7 different brands/models of duty/defense (non-competition) type pistols in the past 14 years. All striker fired guns were well over 4lbs stock. 4 different xd's were probably closer to 7lbs. A couple Sigs were prob around 12/6 da/sa and a Ruger about the same. Lastly, a Keltec with a constant 10lbs every pull.

What's your response to the guy that starts a thread saying that 4lb triggers are too light in Production?

If you truly think that 4lb triggers make a division "more about a shooter's performance/abilities than what gun he's shooting" then there's no reason to discuss this any further. You've pretty much shined the spotlight on the source of your fuzzy logic. This merry-go-round, circular discussion has pretty much run its course. I'm jumping off.

[Southpaw]

The "real" trigger dig was clearly in jest. But you realize we USPSA shooters are a very small niche of the overall handgun market and the types of triggers many of us are shooting even in Production are much improved over the stock triggers that almost all the non-competition shooters have on their guns (which is 90 something % of the handgun market). So those non-competition shooters might call even our tuned Production triggers "gamer" triggers or something like that.

Why did I suggest 4 lbs? I don't want to turn Production into a striker fired only division. Many DA/SA guns as I already mentioned come stock around 5 lbs. in SA. So make the limit 4 lbs. giving margin for error on the trigger pull gauge since it varies based on where on the trigger you put the gauge.

I also in my original post said I'd support not only a trigger weight restriction, but also limit trigger modifications so you can't change original pull length or reset point. I would think these two restrictions combined would help make triggers across production more comparable (or as many in this thread would probably say, equally bad ).

Why these restrictions vs. just saying no trigger restrictions? I dunno, I'd support either. But if you said no trigger restrictions then everyone would be on here posting "what Production gun has the best out of the box trigger". With these rules you can get all triggers around the same weight with only a few bucks worth of springs and maybe a little polishing, but there'd be no reason to go out and spend a few hundred bucks on trigger mods (unless you just love spending money for almost no gain). And even if you kept the trigger completely stock it'd be pretty close to the limited mods you could potentially do.

To me a stock Glock trigger and a stock CZ 75 trigger seem pretty comparable (even excluding the DA pull), but give me some 2 lb. trigger with shortened reset, no over-travel, etc. and I'm clearly going to shoot a gun with that trigger better and to ME that seems more like the type of trigger that belongs in Limited/Open than Production. (Some people read my comments like this and interpret it as me saying gear is more important than skill or something like that, i.e., the whole Indian and arrow thing, but that's not what I'm saying at all)

[pmt]

To me a stock Glock trigger and a stock CZ 75 trigger seem pretty comparable (even excluding the DA pull), but give me some 2 lb. trigger with shortened reset, no over-travel, etc. and I'm clearly going to shoot a gun with that trigger better and to ME that seems more like the type of trigger that belongs in Limited/Open than Production. (Some people read my comments like this and interpret it as me saying gear is more important than skill or something like that, i.e., the whole Indian and arrow thing, but that's not what I'm saying at all)

But that's exactly what you're saying. You've gone on and on for 40+ posts saying that Prod should have crappy triggers and only Lim & Open should have good triggers. You said that bad triggers are real triggers. That by having a crap trigger it's more about the shooter and less about the gun. Bullshit. Production was a place for DA/SA & striker-fired guns to play - not a crappy trigger division. Minimum 4, 5, or 6 pound triggers in DA or SA is stupid and unenforceable. Two different gauges won't measure the same trigger the same way. Two different people won't measure the same way. IPSC did it to try keep people from modifying their trigger.... BUT.... they're allowed to use OEM parts. Everyone in IPSC with an SP01 or Tanfo changes springs to lighten trigger pull. They're also allowed to polish parts for 'reliability' Read whatever you want into that.

What is your ultimate goal with these rule changes you would like to see? Are you trying to somehow make all brands of guns equal? Are you trying to limit the cost of Prod guns? What is the point of your nonsensical rambling?

[Forrest Halley]

Open up the aftermarket trigger loophole on production and your polymers come right back into favor. Apex FSS is a pretty slick improvement on an M&P and there are other makers for xd and Glock.

This seems like a thinly veiled polymers can't compete against tanfo/cz thread. Seems to me as an ever so occasional production shooter it seems like it has been a cycle of this IS good and that WAS good.

[Nimitz]

I've let more than one of my Production div friends try shooting my STI .... didn't seem to make them a noticably better shooter ... it made their trigger control issues a liitle less noticable but they were still there if you knew what to look for ...

Edited July 30, 2015 by Nimitz