Minimum trigger pull in Production?

[Southpaw]

Would you support a rule adding a minimum trigger pull to Production? I'm not talking about a minimum trigger pull on just the first shot like in IPSC (I don't shoot IPSC, but this seems like a terrible rule). But what about say a 4 lb. minimum trigger pull on every shot (both DA and SA)? I'm fairly certain very few of you are going to agree with me on this; I'm curious as to why.

Personally I would take it a step further and say you can't modify the trigger to change the length of travel or reset point as well. So no aftermarket triggers that reduce take-up, short re-set triggers, etc.

I think Phil has a point in his Carry Optics post about these "Limited Minor" guns in Production, but I think it has more to do with the trigger than the weight of the gun. And I'm not trying to single out the triggers on steel framed guns; I haven't tried many of the aftermarket triggers out there, but I understand you can give some of the polymer Production guns pretty incredible triggers as well.

I like the idea of Production being a lower cost division where you don't feel compelled to spend another few hundred on aftermarket trigger parts and I think Production should feel like less of an "arms race" than Limited and Open. Yes I know it'll always be an arms race, but if we can lessen this I think that's a good thing.

I've tried triggers on Production guns that felt just as good as a nice 1911 trigger; this did not seem like a "production" trigger to me that you can find on the guns on the shelves in your typical local gun shop.

If you don't agree with me on these trigger restrictions, as I'll bet most of you don't, do you support allowing 1911s shooting minor in Production? Why not if Production guns are allowed to have triggers just as nice as a 1911 trigger? Personally I like keeping Production and Single Stack separate, and I enjoy shooting in both divisions.

[Sarge]

I doubt you will get much support since the metal frames are able to have some excellent triggers.

What production gun did you shoot that had as good a trigger as a 2011?

[BritinUSA]

It's been tried before. USPSA tried to bring in a 3lb trigger pull for Production. The backlash was quite impressive.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=142216&p=1597775

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=142307&p=1599077

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=43185&p=493092

[MarkCO]

Anyone who says striker fired triggers can be as good as 1911 triggers is just not being honest. I have a great trigger in my M&P, but if you keep all the safeties operational, it just can't get as good as a 1911. There are a lot of polymer framed pistols out there with the safety plunger removed and other geometries that compromise the designers safety features. And, it is not just the trigger. The 1911/2011 platform is certainly more accurate than any of the polymer framed pistols. Yes, for USPSA, it likely makes little difference. But put a plate rack at 40 yards and I can clean it with a 1911/2011 one for one and with a polymer framed pistol, I can not.

I have always looked at USPSA as racing with guns. Define a division and let people figure out how to win the best. Imposing restrictions on an established division is not a good idea and I would not support it. I thought Limited10 was a bad idea too FTR.

[d_striker]

You could pretty much count on me not shooting Production anymore...Ever.

I recently made the switch from an XDm to CZ. It wasn't for the trigger or the weight. It was purely for the accuracy. The trigger in my XD was really good. Less take up and overtravel than in my CZ.

The trigger in my CZ is really good as well. Still not as good as a 1911. I've never felt any pivot trigger that comes as close to a tuned 1911 trigger. Just my opinion.

I wouldn't care if people shot 1911's in Production as long as they leave the magwells off, but why would they? They already have their very own division.

[Southpaw]

What production gun did you shoot that had as good a trigger as a 2011?

A CZ Shadow something with some kind of wiz bang CZ Custom trigger job (I don't remember the exact model or type of trigger work).

It's been tried before. USPSA tried to bring in a 3lb trigger pull for Production. The backlash was quite impressive.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=142216&p=1597775

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=142307&p=1599077

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=43185&p=493092

Wow, that's a lot of outrage over a 3lb. limit which seems pretty mild to me. But this proposed rule was just for the first shot like in IPSC? That seems like a horrible rule to me; I'd vote against that as well since it gives a clear advantage to DA/SA guns.

And, it is not just the trigger. The 1911/2011 platform is certainly more accurate than any of the polymer framed pistols. Yes, for USPSA, it likely makes little difference. But put a plate rack at 40 yards and I can clean it with a 1911/2011 one for one and with a polymer framed pistol, I can not.

Imposing restrictions on an established division is not a good idea and I would not support it.

There are Production guns which are more accurate than many non-custom 1911s, such as the Accu-Shadow. And with a custom fit barrel I'll bet you can make a Glock accurate enough that if you're missing that 40 yard plate rack it's you, not the gun. (I'm not implying I'd do well on that 40 yard plate rack ).

I agree it's not easy to take a current division and make it more restrictive (I didn't anticipate getting much support for my proposal). I suppose I'm more wondering in an ideal world if we could go back and change the rules of Production when it first came out to have these trigger restrictions I described would everyone be in favor of that? And if not, why?

You could pretty much count on me not shooting Production anymore...Ever.

I recently made the switch from an XDm to CZ. It wasn't for the trigger or the weight. It was purely for the accuracy. The trigger in my XD was really good. Less take up and overtravel than in my CZ.

So you like the CZ because of it's mechanical accuracy and not the trigger, but you'd be opposed to putting some heavier springs in it or something to slightly increase the trigger pull?

[d_striker]

The trigger is a bonus. I don't think it gives me an advantage over the trigger in my XD though. SA trigger in my CZ is about 2lbs. XD is about 2.25lb. My splits with both guns are about the same. My first shot is faster with the XD. My XD in 40 minor actually shoots softer than the CZ. If my XD had the same accuracy as the CZ, I would just shoot it.

To get a 4lb SA trigger, I would have to put a REALLY heavy main spring in. I don't even know if it's possible at this point, even with a heavy main spring, with all of the polishing I've done. Maybe if I got a bunch of new stock parts and left it rough I could get there.

That's my point though...Why would I spend more money and time to get a heavier trigger? I wouldn't have a Production legal gun without having to undo all of the work I've put into both platforms. I would rather spend money on a 2011 with a trigger pull weight I prefer to use and shoot Limited.

For the record, my 2lb SA CZ trigger is not as good as a 2lb 1911 trigger. I think a "good trigger" is pretty subjective but most people would agree with me that a pivot trigger with takeup and overtravel just can't compare to the mechanical design and function of a 1911 trigger.

Edited July 28, 2015 by d_striker

[Southpaw]

Yeah that's totally understandable. I wouldn't enjoy spending money on making a trigger worse either

I guess what I'm wondering is, thinking objectively, does everything think the types of modifications allowed on current Production guns is a good thing (if we could go back in time and change it)? Or should they have made the restrictions on modifications more strict?

Ideally I think the types of triggers that should be found on Production guns should be a lot closer to how they come out of the box. I don't really like that most people feel compelled to spend a few hundred bucks on upgrading a Production trigger.

[d_striker]

Idk. I think placing certain restrictions just creates inefficiencies and dumb workarounds. Not to bring politics into the matter, but I see things like this as being tantamount to liberal political thought.

If USPSA had run with that 3lb trigger rule, they would have set off the CZ/Tanfo madness a lot sooner than it naturally happened.

If the true intent of your question is to limit Prd division to stock triggers, I think the weight would have to be more like 7lbs. Sounds pretty gross.

[Southpaw]

Idk. I think placing certain restrictions just creates inefficiencies and dumb workarounds.

Oh there's plenty of that already in Production . Can't externally modify the trigger so people figure out ways to internally modify them to reduce take-up and over-travel, for example.

There are actually quite a few rules in Production which I would support eliminating or making more lenient that I think are needlessly restrictive. I just think the trigger rules are far too generous and make Production more of an arms race than I'd like it to be.

[kneelingatlas]

Practically speaking, different people testing trigger weights on DA pistols like CZs with a bunch of different shaped triggers would be problematic.

Regardless, your proposal would handicap the most popular platform in the division (DA/SA) to a much greater degree than their striker fired counterparts. Shadows come from the Factory with sub 4# SA triggers, so no Shadows? Even a high mileage 75B is under 4#.

The more asenine rules you create for the Production division, the more difficult the enforcement, handicapping honest shooters and giving the advantage to those who disregard the rules.

In reality, the "Production arms race" is all in your head

[d_striker]

Idk. I think placing certain restrictions just creates inefficiencies and dumb workarounds.

Oh there's plenty of that already in Production . Can't externally modify the trigger so people figure out ways to internally modify them to reduce take-up and over-travel, for example.

There are actually quite a few rules in Production which I would support eliminating or making more lenient that I think are needlessly restrictive. I just think the trigger rules are far too generous and make Production more of an arms race than I'd like it to be.

I don't buy into the "arms race" argument. If the intent of the division was for bone stock guns, they should have just said NO modifications what so ever. No stippling, grip tape, trigger mods, after market sights, etc. It would be interesting to see what participation levels would be in the division. My guess is it wouldn't have been as successful as it is today.

I prefer light triggers on ALL of my guns. My AR's, pistols, and bolt guns all have less than 3lb triggers. The only gun I own that has a trigger heavier than 5lb is my shotgun.

That's just how I like to shoot.

[pmt]

Another person that believes Production Division = crappy trigger.

[rvb]

The real problem is so many people think it's the gear that really matters. So long as we have that perception, the division will never seem "fair." The gear might matter if you are trying to break into the top 8 at Nats. Otherwise, pick a gun and shoot it. I bet which one you pick won't make more than 1% difference in your score.

Good triggers have been around for a long time in other guns (my worked-over Beretta 92 trigger was awesome). That's not new. The weight IS the unique feature of the current production hotness.

I currently shoot a glock. I do NOT support a trigger pull restriction. And from an officiating standpoint, it sounds like a headache. If glock wants to regain market share, they need to build a better product. evolve and actually innovate vs ride a 30 yr old design.

I do support 1911s in production. I've felt for years there is no reason for two separate divisions. 8 major / 10 minor for all. Top 16 at nats might be all 1911s or tangfos. Who cares!

-rvb [jaded on the equipment race]

Edited July 28, 2015 by rvb

[kneelingatlas]

I do support 1911s in production. I've felt for years there is no reason for two separate divisions. 8 major / 10 minor for all. Top 16 at nats might be all 1911s or tangfos. Who cares!

I like your thinking

There's no good reason a new guy who owns a .40 Glock shouldn't be scored Major in Production.

[Peally]

No need. I guarantee even if you did create the rule that the same usual people would be destroying the same matches just with slightly different triggers. I'm not well traveled around the country USPSA-wise but the sole, massive, horrifyingly gigantic handicap that's blatantly obvious for most shooters is they'd rather pick their nose at home than practice once a year. At the higher end of the game those folks are just plain old badasses no matter what gun they end up practicing on.

I would like to be able to put my low profile slide release into my HK so the dang thing functions correctly with my grip, without violating production rules, but you can't win em all.

ETA: I do shoot a 45 in production and I don't feel like I have a big handicap being scored minor for what it's worth. With reloads that would make major I still feel like 9mm in many popular guns has a sharper recoil hit, but maybe I'm just used to what I'm used to.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Peally

[Southpaw]

So you all seem to support allowing 1911s in Production, if we're going to allow 1911s why not 2011s as well? So we'll eliminate Production and Single Stack, merge them all into L10, 10 rounds minor, 8 major. Sounds like a great idea right...

[kneelingatlas]

Doesn't matter to me

[BritinUSA]

So you all seem to support allowing 1911s in Production, if we're going to allow 1911s why not 2011s as well? So we'll eliminate Production and Single Stack, merge them all into L10, 10 rounds minor, 8 major. Sounds like a great idea right...

Nope I'm not in favor of that at all. Production was designed as a division for DA/SA guns only. Not an entry level, or a cheap division. It's become known as entry level and cheap because the cost of many of the guns are cheaper than the guns in other divisions.

L10 was created as a place for low capacity 1911's (before SingleStack became a division), then Single Stack became a division.

L10 then became an option for those in restrictive states.

[d_striker]

So you all seem to support allowing 1911s in Production, if we're going to allow 1911s why not 2011s as well? So we'll eliminate Production and Single Stack, merge them all into L10, 10 rounds minor, 8 major. Sounds like a great idea right...

Sure why not?

But you do realize the mega butt hurt from the plastic gun owners will be of a magnitude you couldn't imagine, right?

[Tim/GA]

A big sticking point with many of us back when this came up (in particular those of us running matches) was how tough measuring the trigger pull at level 1 matches AND also doing it accurately would be.

We don't have the time for that at those matches, not to mention often not having a good location and/or personnel for the job. Would have been a nightmare.

[rbebeau]

Someone once mentioned to me having a minimum trigger pull on A shot. I.E. If there was a #3 min then #5 DA, #2SA - OK or #3striker - OK.

I know it's hard to enforce (for the life of me I can't understand why some one can't build a good force meter). Just thought I'd throw the idea into play.

[rvb]

Prod and SS are divisions based on guns you can buy off the shelf. They could be merged easily. L10 is a race gun division w/ fewer rounds in the mags thanks to fed [expired] and state AWBs. you can do slide lightening, rackers, big mag releases, etc etc in L10 so it doesn't make sense to merge it w/ the two factory-type divisions. I don't think L10 was made for SS guns, it was just the only place they could play somewhat competitively before SS came along.

-rvb

[Southpaw]

I wasn't yet shooting USPSA when Production first became a division. How do the triggers used by the top GMs now compare to those used in the first few years of Production? I have no idea the answer to this, but I'd imagine the triggers used the first few years were a lot closer to stock triggers than they are today, right? I'm assuming this since all the popular aftermarket trigger options now didn't even exist back then. I'm sure they did some polishing, playing with springs, etc. but the triggers overall were likely a lot closer to stock triggers?

If this is true then doesn't that imply that technological advances in aftermarket triggers has evolved Production guns into something that wasn't the initial intent of the division? And if so, is this a good thing? Phil referred to some Production guns as "Limited Minor" and I think he has a point. I'm surprised that more (any) of you don't think this is a bad thing...

Do all of you who support allowing 1911s and other single action guns in Production actually shoot Production as your primary division? I'm surprised there's actual support for this. And even if merging divisions wouldn't bother you, can't you objectively realize this would not be a good thing for the sport? Unlike Carry Optics, I'll bet there was a real demand for the Production division when it came out, and still today it's one of the most popular divisions. I think there'd be a lot of Production shooters upset if you made it open to SA guns (not necessarily the members on the forum, but a lot of the people you see at local club matches shooting Production).

Production was designed as a division for DA/SA guns only. Not an entry level, or a cheap division. It's become known as entry level and cheap because the cost of many of the guns are cheaper than the guns in other divisions.

Our current President seems to disagree with you on this, "The spirit of Production was to allow a place for entry-level shooters to be competitive without having to spend Limited/Open equipment prices. Production Division was intended to comprise of carry pistols with carry equipment on a somewhat level playing field."

I don't necessarily agree that Production is primarily for entry level shooters; however, I do think it should be friendly towards entry level shooters since it's likely the most common division people shoot when trying USPSA for the first time.

I suppose the way I think about it is if someone brand new to USPSA goes to a match to observe and sees a bunch of people shooting Production with more or less stock guns he's probably going to feel more comfortable trying that out, since those are likely the type of guns non-competition shooters already own (that or 1911s). But if this person then starts talking to all the Production shooters and realizes that the CZ on everyone's hip isn't just an SP-01 like the one he has at home that he got for $600, but is instead an Accu-Shadow that costs ~$2,000 this new shooter might feel like USPSA isn't for him since the guns he currently has aren't the type normally used by serious USPSA shooters.

No need. I guarantee even if you did create the rule that the same usual people would be destroying the same matches just with slightly different triggers. I'm not well traveled around the country USPSA-wise but the sole, massive, horrifyingly gigantic handicap that's blatantly obvious for most shooters is they'd rather pick their nose at home than practice once a year. At the higher end of the game those folks are just plain old badasses no matter what gun they end up practicing on.

No argument on that. That's not the point I'm trying to make. I think if Production were limited to more stock triggers it would be even MORE about a shooters ability and less about what gun he's shooting.

Prod and SS are divisions based on guns you can buy off the shelf. They could be merged easily. L10 is a race gun division w/ fewer rounds in the mags thanks to fed [expired] and state AWBs. you can do slide lightening, rackers, big mag releases, etc etc in L10 so it doesn't make sense to merge it w/ the two factory-type divisions.

Ok so merge the 3 divisions, but you have to shoot a "stock" 2011 and you need to take off the slide racker, magwell, etc. There are Production legal guns with slide lightening cuts, but those are somehow ok because they're done at the factory and not aftermarket...

A big sticking point with many of us back when this came up (in particular those of us running matches) was how tough measuring the trigger pull at level 1 matches AND also doing it accurately would be.

Do you chrono at level 1 matches? Or weigh guns, check them in boxes, measure mag lengths, etc? I've never seen that done at a level 1 match. I agree measuring trigger pulls would be difficult, but they somehow manage to do it in IPSC, right?

Another person that believes Production Division = crappy trigger.

Correct. What, you can't handle a "real" trigger?

Regardless, your proposal would handicap the most popular platform in the division (DA/SA) to a much greater degree than their striker fired counterparts. Shadows come from the Factory with sub 4# SA triggers, so no Shadows? Even a high mileage 75B is under 4#.

You think so? I'd think the 4lb. SA pull on most steel guns would still feel better than a 4lb. trigger on most polymer guns. I don't know much about all the CZ models. I said 4lbs. since I figured the SA pull on most factory guns is around 5lbs, that's what I've seen on Berettas, Sigs, etc. What's the weight of a stock CZ 75 or SP-01 and how's that compare to the Shadow? Are all those Shadow models factory produced guns from CZ, or do some of them come out of their custom shop or something? I don't see some models like the Accu-Shadow on their website.

[kneelingatlas]

Have you ever shot a CZ Russel? The biggest difference between a factory pistol and a tuned accushadow is the hammer hooks, you can buy a race hammer or file them yourself, but a 2# SA pull is possible with nothing more than a file and sand paper. Accushadows cost $2K because people want them, they're not some magical supergun.

I wrote a beginner's tuner's guide to prove you can get top performance with a minimal investment: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=191773

Edited July 29, 2015 by kneelingatlas