MilkMyDuds Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I have trained to ride my left hand thumb between the take-down lever and slide of the MP9 Pro. It has worked OK so far. I don't see any accuracy issues shooting either slow or fast. However, in a recent live-fire training session, due to the scorching hot Texas sun, the slide + the take-down lever were so hot in the middle of the session that I was forced to move my left hand thumb away from them. Then I noticed something interesting during some shooting on the move drills - my grouping appeared to be tighter given the same splits. I then did some offhand group shooting at 25 yards, and confirmed that by moving away my left hand thumb from the gun, I am getting about 1 inch improvement on the grouping (2-3 inches vs. 3-4 inches). During my dry fire, I never notice any sight movement due to the left hand thumb touching the slide. So this problem must be present only in live fire where the slide moves. I recall in Ben Stoeger's book he suggested most shooters should keep non-dominant hand thumb away from the gun. However, I am not exactly sure why it would matter, as long as the sight is still aligned when then bullet is out of the barrel. Unless, the slide movement causes the thumb to apply different forces on the slide during the time to take the bullet fly out of the 5'' barrel... I don't know if that is possible because the slide won't really start much movement until the bullet is on its way. Anyone notices this as well? I wonder if it is worth retrain my grip with my latest observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 As I understand it, the support hand thumb touching the gun can disturb accuracy, even though we don't intend it or think it's happening. Keeping the support hand thumb floating there, relaxed, not touching the gun, is a new thing for me but think it will be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilkMyDuds Posted July 15, 2015 Author Share Posted July 15, 2015 Yes it seems to be common wisdom that the support hand thumb should not touch the gun, though few top shooters do wrap their support hand fingers around trigger guard which seems to be more likely to disturb accuracy. Ben's book suggests most shooters should keep support thumb away, but it also says depending on the gun and hand it may not be a problem. I am trying to convince myself that with my short left hand thumb and smooth MP slide side it won't be a problem for me I probably will retrain the grip when I switch platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EngineerEli Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 This is interesting. I reply to your question with a question... If this is the case, then why do so many people add grip tape, or stipple there frame where the weak hand thumb rests against it? If your weak hand thumb isn't supposed to be touching the gun, then how do you explain thumb rests/gas pedals, which seem to be relatively proven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) They might have trained themselves to use the support hand thumb as a useful tool in keeping the gun on target and/or managing recoil. Those who haven't put much thought/effort into controlling that thumb as it touches the gun, probably get no benefit, or even detriment, to their accuracy. Edited July 15, 2015 by GunBugBit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTDMFR Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Yes it seems to be common wisdom that the support hand thumb should not touch the gun, though few top shooters do wrap their support hand fingers around trigger guard which seems to be more likely to disturb accuracy. Ben's book suggests most shooters should keep support thumb away, but it also says depending on the gun and hand it may not be a problem. I am trying to convince myself that with my short left hand thumb and smooth MP slide side it won't be a problem for me I probably will retrain the grip when I switch platform. Be careful... Last weekend, I caused my M&P Pro to fail to pick up a new round by riding my thumb on the slide. It was a first for me. My support hand thumb usually never touches the slide or the frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 yes,classic wisdom is to not touch the gun with your thumbs since if you are putting any forces on one side of the gun you need to then apply forces to the other side to balance them out .... you always want a neutral grip .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilkMyDuds Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 I did some research tonight, and found this: THUMBS ON OR OFF?Brian Enos considers not touching the side of the gun with the support-hand thumb a key element to consistent sight tracking, but not everyone agrees with that. Dave Sevigny does indeed touch the side of the gun with the support-hand thumb and considers that a significant part of his technique. He explained, “I think it’s very important not to overcompensate for anything; if you’re doing something on one side of the gun, you should do the same thing on the other side as much as possible. I put side-to-side pressure on the gun with my left hand and front-to-rear pressure with the right hand; I put the gun out there, muscling it just enough to keep it where I want it to be while I’m pulling the trigger. But you still have to pull the trigger with your right hand. I find that getting my thumb against the side of the gun balances everything out so you can resist trigger torque; you don’t wind up moving the gun off target when you pull the trigger. Placing the support-hand thumb along the frame seems to balance everything out for me, especially when pressing a four- to six-pound Glock trigger pull for every shot.”Read more: http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics-training/tactics_training_combatg_100306/#ixzz3g1UfPN6t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckie45 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 "Then I noticed something interesting during some shooting on the move drills - my grouping appeared to be tighter given the same splits. I then did some offhand group shooting at 25 yards, and confirmed that by moving away my left hand thumb from the gun, I am getting about 1 inch improvement on the grouping (2-3 inches vs. 3-4 inches)." You've already proven that for you and your current gun there is a marked improvement. I think you've found the answer for you. Don't ignor it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 I used to keep my support thumb on the frame, before starting to compete, with a grip very similar to Dave Sevigny's. After shooting quite a few rounds in a short time, it got hot enough that I wanted to keep my thumb away. The gun doesn't heat up that much during a typical USPSA or practice stage to make it an issue, but I see wisdom in keeping that thumb off the gun apart from the heat thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 my support thumb BARELY touches the side of the gun, sometimes the actual tip of the thumb not at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 I can tell you from my experience, when I made a conscious effort to not touch the gun with the support hand thumb, my shooting improved drastically. I used to have my thumb ride the frame and would wear a spot out on the blueing. Little did I know I was stearing the gun with this thumb. When I stopped riding the frame, my shots would be off to the right (Lefty) because I was used to compensating with that thumb. It only took a week to get over this. Good for you for discovering this,, it was an eye opener for me.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcobean Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 In Enos' book, I believe he talks about the thumbs not being part of the firing grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Yes, Brian's description of the grip covers everything. Other descriptions of the same grip put it in different words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueknight749 Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Very interesting. While I haven't been shooing very long, in 2008 while attending the Border Patrol Academy, our firearms trainers always had us place our support side thumb along the edge of the slide. I remember they used to tell us that the support hand thumb, when parallel to the slide, should be the same length (or uniformed) to the trigger finger of the strong hand when the trigger finger is resting along the slide, I've been shooting this way since 2008 with great results but I'm curious to see if I will gain any noticeable improvements over what you talked about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 it's an interesting topic. I think the thumb rests you see on open and limited guns predominately provide a quick index point for your grip. much like the piece of grip tape or stipling. you know if you hit that mark with your thumb your grip is built correctly. many thumb rests are completely horizontal and as such may actually be providing a ledge to just rest the thumb without actually putting any force against the gun. others on more of a 45 degree angle do provide some kind of point to put some forward pressure against recoil. I think they work well on flat shooting open guns that recoil back quite hard but not up as much as non-compensated guns do. I agree if you shoot better with thumb off the gun then don't ignore that evidence. perhaps revist your thumb in time as your shooting grip and style evolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I rest my off hand thumb against the frame just lightly touching it for index. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanb Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 My thumb is on the slide. I just went through a Vogel course and he never mentioned that I should pull my thumb away. Im pretty sure he actually commented that it was a good grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaltonFeep Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) I have limited experience in USPSA/IDPA but in Bullseye (one hand) it is very important to relax the thumb to avoid using it as part of your grip. The idea is to use your hand like a vice to squeeze the front and rear straps together - like the jaws of a vice would if the pistol was perpendicular to the jaws. I would think the same idea applies to both thumbs when shooting with both hands. But I'm glad I saw this as in dry firing I have been resting the support hand thumb on the side of the frame. Edited September 4, 2015 by WaltonFeep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lior Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 This weekend I took a training session with my M&Ps (read: no thumb safety, no thumbrests), and made an effort (not yet subconscious) not to touch the gun with my thumbs. My shooting felt more relaxed, accurate and fast than usual. It's a project in progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jroback Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 My thumb is on the slide. I just went through a Vogel course and he never mentioned that I should pull my thumb away. Im pretty sure he actually commented that it was a good grip. When I took a class with Vogel last year, I remember an interesting response when someone asked him a few specific questions about the offhand thumb. As many who have seen his videos or taken his class probably remember, he is a big proponent of applying inward force on the gun with both hands. I thought he was going to answer the question by saying that his offhand thumb was used as another point to apply that inward force on the gun. However, the answer was more subtle. I remember him saying that he tries not to apply inward force with the offhand thumb because it would steer the gun too much, but he also doesn't leave that thumb relaxed. Instead he pushes it strongly downward, to the point it contacts his index finger, because that motion really tightens the muscle at the base of his thumb and then that resulting muscle mass is his focus point for applying inward pressure on the gun with his offhand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sray53txtn Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 I'm new to the thumb position and was wondering if there's a good site with photos of the different left thumb positions. I seem to have a problem with my position consistency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jroback Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 just off the top of my head, I would suggest going to youtube and searching: shannon smith grip, vogel grip, seeklander grip. Each of them have good videos where they go into detail on how they grip the pistol. You can probably get good views of their thumb placements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sray53txtn Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 jrobackI'll ck those out. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrocque Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Very interesting, never though of this before. I'll need to observe at the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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