Sarge Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 This was pointed out to me at a class a couple years ago while working on calling the shot.. "Never DISRESPECT a target. at any distance.."This goes against what I learned when I switched to open. On some classifiers you can shoot an open gun faster with the dot turned off since you are not taking the time to call your shots. The targets are so close you just put them in the glass and stab the trigger For those types of targets, if you have a hard focus on the target, seeing the dot peripherally will not "slow you down." But newer open shooters sometimes struggle with the dot and it's kind of a waste of time to get a perfect sight picture in a target at practically arms reach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 he saying use it as efficiently as possible, peripherally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoomy Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 I saw a video of Taran Butler drawing an clearing a plate rack in 2.5 seconds shooting from the hip. Showmanship aside it shows that it is possible to totally ignore all the lessons about seeng the front sight, proper two handed grip and so on and shoot accurately and fast. This kind of talent is beyond most of us and we should not think this type of muscle memory shooting will improve our results. But the last few range trips I found point shooting without the use of sights seems to work out better for me when the targets are closer than 5 yards. If I take the time to look at the sights my times move higher by considerable amounts. There must be something wrong with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) I have to start this post with a disclaimer, I'm old and forget things . A while back at a match there was a stage that was a table start, 2 targets through a port directly in front of the table, then swing to the left and engage a series of targets along a trail. Well, I engaged the first 2 targets, swung to the third target and said to myself "Crap, I forgot to turn the dot on" so I engaged the third target and while moving to the next one, I turned the CMore on. As we were walking back, scoring the targets, I had all Alphas on the first 3 targets. I had a fleeting thought of "maybe I should forget to turn the dot on more often". It showed me that my muscle memory worked. (I now have notes written on my CMore in silver Sharpie to turn it on, haven't forgotten since that day). Edited September 4, 2015 by Bkreutz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 BB, it's been a while since I've shot open but when I did I don't remember even seeing the dot on real close targets. I remember lots of shooters saying "never saw the dot once" after finishing close speed shoots... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I think Brian has kind of answered it for me. I once would totally agree with you. and early on shooting open I did get distracted by the dot on close targets. in fact one stage that had no target further than 3 yards and was all about movement and fast splits I actually ran the stage with my dot turned off so i wouldn't bother trying to find it. Plenty of close targets I would have shot basically looking over the gun. it still worked at 3 yards and maybe even 5 yards but as you improve it's not any slower to have awareness of the dot. However, as you develop as a shooter what Brian says makes sense. Don't get me wrong, I still have more learning in front of me than I do behind me (and possibly always will) but at my current skill level on that type of stage now I'd be hard focused on the target but I'm 'aware' of the dot. So it's like I'm boring a hole into the middle of the A with my eyes and as the dot comes into that picture I release one shot, it moves a bit, settles again into the middle of my focus, release the second shot. then eyes move to the next target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 This was pointed out to me at a class a couple years ago while working on calling the shot.. "Never DISRESPECT a target. at any distance.."This goes against what I learned when I switched to open. On some classifiers you can shoot an open gun faster with the dot turned off since you are not taking the time to call your shots. The targets are so close you just put them in the glass and stab the trigger For those types of targets, if you have a hard focus on the target, seeing the dot peripherally will not "slow you down." But newer open shooters sometimes struggle with the dot and it's kind of a waste of time to get a perfect sight picture in a target at practically arms reach I agree with that too Sarge. As I posted when I started shooting open that was totally me. Trying to acquire the dot and get it all lined up nicely on close targets was way slower than just having hard target focus and getting the gun up there and pulling the trigger. As I've improved my ability to see more has improved a little too. I think now on most closer stuff I do have that hard target focus still but have an awareness of what the dot is doing. I can keep track of it without wasting time. I couldn't do that before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 BB, it's been a while since I've shot open but when I did I don't remember even seeing the dot on real close targets. I remember lots of shooters saying "never saw the dot once" after finishing close speed shoots... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ... So it's like I'm boring a hole into the middle of the A with my eyes and as the dot comes into that picture I release one shot, it moves a bit, settles again into the middle of my focus, release the second shot. then eyes move to the next target. They're ya go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) Seeing the sights for ALL shots fired allows you to instantly KNOW where the bullets are going without needing to look at the targets to confirm your hits. If you instantly KNOW where the bullets are going this allows you to do the next thing immediately after calling the shot. Since you know where your hits are instantly and can do the next thing immediately then seeing your sights is really the key to doing things "Faster". Technically you are really not doing things "Faster". You are simply allowing yourself to do the next thing Sooner, which results in the whole process taking less time. If you are using the proper gun handling mechanics, then seeing the sights when the gun is in between your face and the target takes ZERO extra time to do. Knowing that fact, why on earth wouldn't you observe your sights at all times? Do you really want to sacrifice on target hit quality, and wasted time looking for holes to confirm your hits? If so, thank you for your donation in match points. Edited September 8, 2015 by CHA-LEE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Technically you are really not doing things "Faster". You are simply allowing yourself to do the next thing Sooner, which results in the whole process taking less time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewHewes81 Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 I shoot with my eyes closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 ...If you are using the proper gun handling mechanics, then seeing the sights when the gun is in between your face and the target takes ZERO extra time to do. Knowing that fact, why on earth wouldn't you observe your sights at all times?... Makes perfect sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NFLcavediver Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I shoot with my eyes closed. I had someone else shoot my gun, he said that the sights are dead on. I must be doing the same thing!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 ...If you are using the proper gun handling mechanics, then seeing the sights when the gun is in between your face and the target takes ZERO extra time to do. Knowing that fact, why on earth wouldn't you observe your sights at all times?...Makes perfect sense. I always get a good chuckle when I read about shooters who try to rationalize that not looking at their sights is faster & better somehow than looking at them ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 Seeing the sights for ALL shots fired allows you to instantly KNOW where the bullets are going without needing to look at the targets to confirm your hits. If you instantly KNOW where the bullets are going this allows you to do the next thing immediately after calling the shot. Since you know where your hits are instantly and can do the next thing immediately then seeing your sights is really the key to doing things "Faster". Technically you are really not doing things "Faster". You are simply allowing yourself to do the next thing Sooner, which results in the whole process taking less time. If you are using the proper gun handling mechanics, then seeing the sights when the gun is in between your face and the target takes ZERO extra time to do. Knowing that fact, why on earth wouldn't you observe your sights at all times? Do you really want to sacrifice on target hit quality, and wasted time looking for holes to confirm your hits? If so, thank you for your donation in match points. I agree. but I'd add a caveat of sorts to the sentence. "If you are using the proper gun handling mechanics, then seeing the sights when the gun is in between your face and the target takes ZERO extra time to do. " - for those that are capable of doing so. I can only really speak to my own experience but I think others may have a similar experience. As a new IPSC shooter I simply didn't have the ability to do that. My gun handling or NPA or Index were ok, but not perfect. Even more crucially I was not 'seeing' nearly as much as I am now (and I'm still only a hack shooter). I look back at earlier vids and a large part of my attention was on muzzle awareness, trigger finger discipline, operating the gun, even just finding the targets etc, executing. As I've improved those tasks are handled more subconsciously or at least with less 'conscious effort'. That enables me to do a whole bunch of things that I just could not do before. One of those things is 'seeing more'. Seeing more gives that 'time slows down' effect and when I'm doing it right I can observe a swinger pop out and see lots of things happening simultaneously (swinger moving out of hard cover, dot aligning with centre of target as it slows near the dwell point, shot is released and see the dot move and settle back in time that the swinger is now just accelerating at the other side of the dwell point, I can still see the dot and can now release the second shot - when I'm functioning properly that results in two hits exactly where I know they'll be and all takes place in maybe .50 of a second from the time the swinger is activated to the time my eyes move on to the next target). So while I can do that now I can't do it all the time. I think that's the biggest difference between the top guys and the mid pack guys. On a good run the mid pack guys can be up there in the top bunch. But they just aren't yet able to execute that level of performance stage after stage. To be anywhere near the top you need to be able to perform at your peak basically all the time. That's a whole other issue though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I see merit in point shooting for defensive close in work and for speed draw sort of shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 One of our practice stages last night had some of its targets at a 3-yard distance. I thought of this thread as watched my sights move up and down, pressing the trigger faster than I usually do. The speed of the trigger wasn't hindered in any way by having the sights aligned in front of my eyes. I accepted a rough sight picture for each shot, and it got me the A hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 ...If you are using the proper gun handling mechanics, then seeing the sights when the gun is in between your face and the target takes ZERO extra time to do. Knowing that fact, why on earth wouldn't you observe your sights at all times?...Makes perfect sense. I always get a good chuckle when I read about shooters who try to rationalize that not looking at their sights is faster & better somehow than looking at them ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 If you have a target inside 5 yards the only sight you need to see is the front sight... but you NEED to see that! The "proper sight picture" is variable depending upon target distance. The further away they are the more the sights need to be in proper alignment. The closer they are (inside 5 yards for me) the front sight will do just fine. Regardless... you need to see some portion of the sights for any distance. How precisely they need be aligned depends upon target distance. And Heaven Forbid... at closer distances you can even match that front sight with a 'trigger slap'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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