Sliding Wall Ports - Disappearing Targets?

[RaylanGivens]

One of our stage designers build an interesting new prop for last night's match... It is a wall with two ports in it - one port is high in the left side of the wall - a second port is low in the right side of the wall... a sliding panel the width of the wall sits at the top of the wall and covers the left-top port... shooting a steel activator drops the sliding panel so that it opens the left top port and hides the right lower port.

In last night's stage, two metric targets could only be shot through the lower right port. The sliding wall activator (popper) was also located within the same area and had to be shot through the lower right port.

Shooting the activating popper through the right lower port lowers the sliding panel and makes the two metric targets next to it unavailable. The metric targets can not be shot from anywhere else on the stage - you must shoot them before shooting the activator and closing the port.

Several shooters complained that these targets should be scored as disappearing targets... However, page 57 of the current USPSA rulebook, defines disappearing targets as follows:

"Disappearing target ..........A target which when activated and after completing its movement is no longer available for engagement."

The targets in our situation do not move. I don't see how they could be classified as disappearing targets. I tried to think of what the rules say, but there don't seem to be any rules that cover this situation. Moving targets, yes... Moving walls, no...

My opinion was that shooting the activator before shooting the two metric targets was simply bad stage planning... Don't close a port before you shoot all the targets through it...

People that wanted the two targets classified as disappearing, justified their opinion by stating that the targets "disappeared" if you shot the panel-lowering activator before shooting the two metric targets.

We classified the two targets as disappearing to end the discussion/debate, so we could start shooting the match.

Curious to others thoughts about this, and if there is something in the rulebook that clarifies this situation...

[gng4life]

One second, I misread one part of that scenario...did you have to engage the popper before the targets?

Edited June 24, 2015 by gng4life

[ktm300]

Assuming they were available before you shot the popper to activate the door you are good to go.

[RaylanGivens]

One second, I misread one part of that scenario...did you have to engage the popper before the targets?

No, after the targets...

Shoot the two paper targets, then the popper... The panel drops and you shoot through the upper left port at three different targets...

[Southpaw]

I would say they're disappearing targets. Same as a max trap where the no shoot fully blocks the scoring target after it competes its movement. The scoring target doesn't move on the max trap, just the no shoot, but still a disappearing target.

[StealthyBlagga]

The difference is that the target is not an APPEARING target - it is visible from the start and the shooter can engage it as much as they want before activating the wall.

With the above said, I have see this type of wall used several times, including at the 2013 IPSC Nationals and the last World Shoot - in both cases a very low and inconvenient port was provided that remained open so the targets were not deemed disappearing.

The "real world" rationale for the disappearing target rule (if anyone cares about such things), IIRC, is that the target has "retreated" and thus "is no longer a threat". In this context, I would bet on it ultimately being deemed a disappearing target.

This type of question is why I prefer 3-Gun IMA rules. Target disappeared? Sucks to be you

Edited June 25, 2015 by StealthyBlagga

[ron169]

DNroi@uspsa.org let us know what troy says

[Gary Stevens]

So if after I engage the targets as much as I want, and before I unload and show clear, I decide that I need to engage those targets again. However, now the port is closed and I can't re-engage. Upon scoring one of those two targets has a miss. How is that miss scored, a normal miss or a no penalty miss?

[Nik Habicht]

To me its really simple -- and I think Gary alluded to it -- if I can't fire on those targets to my hearts content, after firing on every other target, right up until the point I'm done -- they're disappearing.......

Make 'em available from somewhere inconvenient -- or make them disappearing. (Realistically 2 mikes per target are already going to hurt -- what will the FTE do on top of that, that the low port and inability to reengage didn't already do?)

[Southpaw]

To me its really simple -- and I think Gary alluded to it -- if I can't fire on those targets to my hearts content, after firing on every other target, right up until the point I'm done -- they're disappearing.......

Agreed, was thinking this same thing after I made my first post. When given the range command If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear, if you decide you're not finished and want to re-engage any target, but that target is now no longer visible from anywhere in the shooting area, it has disappeared and should be scored as such.

[9x45]

Usually max traps do not completely disappear, they still present some target value, unlike a drop turner, which is 90 degrees to your point of view, that would be scored as circle mikes.So if an activated max trap or drop out is visible from any where in the shooting area, and you walk by it, that should be failure and 2 mikes.

[Southpaw]

Usually max traps do not completely disappear, they still present some target value, unlike a drop turner, which is 90 degrees to your point of view, that would be scored as circle mikes.So if an activated max trap or drop out is visible from any where in the shooting area, and you walk by it, that should be failure and 2 mikes.

Agreed, not a disappearing target as long as 25% of the lower A zone or the entire upper A zone is visible as is usually the case with a max trap. Was just trying to give another scenario where there's a disappearing target that doesn't move and it's a moving no shoot or prop that causes it to be disappearing.

[Nik Habicht]

Usually max traps do not completely disappear, they still present some target value, unlike a drop turner, which is 90 degrees to your point of view, that would be scored as circle mikes.So if an activated max trap or drop out is visible from any where in the shooting area, and you walk by it, that should be failure and 2 mikes.

Agreed, as long as the minimum scoring remains visible. This situation however isn't that.....

[Nik Habicht]

The fix doesn't have to be hard -- pop a slit in a wall somewhere else, but don't allow the shooter to walk right up to it. If you do it right, each target could be wide open, but it could take careful foot movement to really see it. Surround the slit in the wall with no-shpots if you need to make it harder....

[gng4life]

Yeah, at first I had another thought but going back to my original post, I would look at 9.9.1 and 9.9.2. Since the the required A zones (B2 and B3) are not available during the COF, it should be considered an NPM for any Mikes on those targets.

[JAFO]

You could cut a 2" horizontal slot in the panel at the bottom of the low port. Kind of like what StealthyBlagga alluded to. If they do it wrong, you've got a bit of a contortionist shot available.

[RaylanGivens]

I would say they're disappearing targets. Same as a max trap where the no shoot fully blocks the scoring target after it competes its movement. The scoring target doesn't move on the max trap, just the no shoot, but still a disappearing target.

Good point.

DNroi@uspsa.org let us know what troy says

Just sent an email to him... I'll reply here when I receive his answer.

So if after I engage the targets as much as I want, and before I unload and show clear, I decide that I need to engage those targets again. However, now the port is closed and I can't re-engage. Upon scoring one of those two targets has a miss. How is that miss scored, a normal miss or a no penalty miss?

For our Friday night match, we scored misses on those targets as no-penalty Mikes.

I'm asking this question to find the correct scoring for future matches using this prop.

The fix doesn't have to be hard -- pop a slit in a wall somewhere else, but don't allow the shooter to walk right up to it. If you do it right, each target could be wide open, but it could take careful foot movement to really see it. Surround the slit in the wall with no-shpots if you need to make it harder....

Interesting. That is not our situation, but it might be a good solution...

[Nik Habicht]

You could cut a 2" horizontal slot in the panel at the bottom of the low port. Kind of like what StealthyBlagga alluded to. If they do it wrong, you've got a bit of a contortionist shot available.

You'll be replacing that panel often. Take six rounds to enlarge the hole at near point plank range, then 4 more to engage the targets......

[Nik Habicht]

I would say they're disappearing targets. Same as a max trap where the no shoot fully blocks the scoring target after it competes its movement. The scoring target doesn't move on the max trap, just the no shoot, but still a disappearing target.

Good point.

DNroi@uspsa.org let us know what troy says

Just sent an email to him... I'll reply here when I receive his answer.

So if after I engage the targets as much as I want, and before I unload and show clear, I decide that I need to engage those targets again. However, now the port is closed and I can't re-engage. Upon scoring one of those two targets has a miss. How is that miss scored, a normal miss or a no penalty miss?

For our Friday night match, we scored misses on those targets as no-penalty Mikes.

I'm asking this question to find the correct scoring for future matches using this prop.

The fix doesn't have to be hard -- pop a slit in a wall somewhere else, but don't allow the shooter to walk right up to it. If you do it right, each target could be wide open, but it could take careful foot movement to really see it. Surround the slit in the wall with no-shpots if you need to make it harder....

Interesting. That is not our situation, but it might be a good solution...

Sometimes when we build stages we use walls that have ports in them, when the diagram calls for solid walls. Usually we close those ports off with nosiest or fresh lumber, but occasionally one will let us present an intriguing alternate view of an array, and we leave it available as an option. That doesn't mean its necessarily smart to take the option; but when it works really well, it's smart to take the option in some divisions, while its smarter to ignore it in others.....

Isn't that a definition of freestyle?

[JAFO]

You could cut a 2" horizontal slot in the panel at the bottom of the low port. Kind of like what StealthyBlagga alluded to. If they do it wrong, you've got a bit of a contortionist shot available.

You'll be replacing that panel often. Take six rounds to enlarge the hole at near point plank range, then 4 more to engage the targets......

OK, how about a 4" slot with no-shoots top and bottom?

[Nik Habicht]

That'd be better......

[motosapiens]

well, area 1 championships had a similar contraption. I'm pretty sure that there were 2 targets that were not available after you closed the port, and I'm pretty sure they were NOT scored as NPM.

I don't see anything in the rulebook that would support treating this situation as a disappearing target under the rulebook definition. 9.9.2 clearly applies to *moving* scoring targets, and these are not those.

There is nothing in the rulebook that requires a shooter to be able to change his mind and shoot a target right before he unloads and shows clear in order for it to not be classified as 'disappearing'.

[1E9P1F1]

Motosapiens, there was a similar stage at Western States Single Stack in 2014. (I believe a level 1 or 2 USPSA match) A popper closed a window to 3 targets and opened another window to shoot through at different targets. We all approached it as "how many of those targets can we get away with after shooting the popper", and the timing of it, not whether the targets were "dissapearing". as they couldnt be shot from anywhere else, we know we HAD to shoot them from there or risk a failure to engage. So the skill level of the shooter influenced your stage plan: shoot the popper first and you better make those 3 papers or youre in trouble, or shoot a paper then the popper and other papers. Heres a video of it, the first stage:

Edited June 30, 2015 by 1E9P1F1

[fishsticks]

well, area 1 championships had a similar contraption. I'm pretty sure that there were 2 targets that were not available after you closed the port, and I'm pretty sure they were NOT scored as NPM.

I don't see anything in the rulebook that would support treating this situation as a disappearing target under the rulebook definition. 9.9.2 clearly applies to *moving* scoring targets, and these are not those.

There is nothing in the rulebook that requires a shooter to be able to change his mind and shoot a target right before he unloads and shows clear in order for it to not be classified as 'disappearing'.

Actually, the heads were available through the upper port - so they were not "disappearing".

As I recall it looked slightly different than this depiction, but it gives folks an idea of what is being discussed.

http://www.idahouspsa.com/area1/pdf/1.pdf

Edited June 30, 2015 by fishsticks

[motosapiens]

well, area 1 championships had a similar contraption. I'm pretty sure that there were 2 targets that were not available after you closed the port, and I'm pretty sure they were NOT scored as NPM.

I don't see anything in the rulebook that would support treating this situation as a disappearing target under the rulebook definition. 9.9.2 clearly applies to *moving* scoring targets, and these are not those.

There is nothing in the rulebook that requires a shooter to be able to change his mind and shoot a target right before he unloads and shows clear in order for it to not be classified as 'disappearing'.

Actually, the heads were available through the upper port - so they were not "disappearing".

As I recall it looked slightly different than this depiction, but it gives folks an idea of what is being discussed.

http://www.idahouspsa.com/area1/pdf/1.pdf

I was pretty sure only the 2 back targets were available through the upper port. I don't recall any portion of the two closer targets being visible, but I was tired when I shot it.