Reliability issues with building yourself?

[CrusaderUSA]

Hey guys,

I've built half a dozen lower receivers without any function issues at all, but now I am looking at whether or not to build an upper for 2-gun and 3-gun competitions, buy the parts and have the local shop assemble it, or buy something complete like the Armalite M15 3-gun upper.

I don't have the specific tools for an upper build, but I'd be doing other upper builds on future rifles for myself and my kids, so the cost of the tools would eventually pay for themselves vs. the shop cost of having a few uppers built.

I've watched a number of different Youtube videos of installing barrels and gas blocks. It doesn't look like brain surgery, but I don't want to botch the job and end up with a rifle that isn't going to perform reliably. What do you guys think? Are there pitfalls that would preclude me doing this myself as a novice?

Here are the parts that I am thinking about using if I build this myself:

Aero/Spikes/Mega Stripped upper receiver

18" Mega 5.56 SPR match barrel, 1:8 twist

Miculek muzzle brake

Seekins rifle length gas tube

SLR Rifleworks Sentry 7 adjustable gas block or Seekins non-adjustable gas block

Seekins melonite M16 bolt carrier group

AXTS Raptor charging handle

Midwest Industries lightweight 15" M-LOK free float rail

Edited June 22, 2015 by CrusaderUSA

[Flatland Shooter]

Building an AR from a box of parts is probably one of the easier projects for the DIY'er.

Your list of parts looks good. I'm not familiar with the barrel you will be using but that don't mean anything. I do like your selection of comp. I use the Miculek on my past several builds.

To me, building the lowers (those dang springs) requires a lot more manual dexterity than required to build an upper, You shouldn't have any problems.

Sure it can be done without some of the AR specific tools, but they are not that expensive and once bought, they will last forever. The proper tool for the job will make it easier and less prone to damaging the parts.

Once you have the parts and the tools, read up on step by step directions. Some sites even have step by step photos on their builds.

And the satisfaction of knowing you built that tack driver is, well, priceless.

Bill

[Iggy42]

Sounds like you have most of this already if you are building lowers, but this kit: http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/gunsmithing-tool-kits/ar-15-m16-critical-tools-kit-prod41214.aspx is godsend for doing a build.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Iggy42

[Pat Miles]

Sounds like you have most of this already if you are building lowers, but this kit: http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/gunsmithing-tool-kits/ar-15-m16-critical-tools-kit-prod41214.aspx is godsend for doing a build.

My apologies to Iggy but I would advise against buying the kit.

There are so many versions of the AR-15 upper by different companies that most will not fit the clamshell in the kit. Buy this barrel torque extension tool, http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/barrel-tools/ar-15-m16-barrel-extension-torque-tool-sku080000637-27452-53686.aspx?sku=080-000-637. With the correct barrel nut tool ( be aware that many handguards come with specific barrel nut tools) you can torque a barrel on any .223/5.56 upper with absolutely no concerns of scarring the upper. With one of these you can install a barrel in minutes. A must have as far as I am concerned.

[CrusaderUSA]

Thanks, I really appreciate the input. Now it's down to figuring out which are the right tools. I was concerned that the clamshell-type vice block may not work with different upper receivers, so I thought this type from DPMS might be the better way to go: http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/bench-vise-blocks/ar-15-upper-receiver-block-prod17094.aspx

Any recommendations for a bench vice? Does it matter if it's 4" or 5" or 6"?

[Pat Miles]

Thanks, I really appreciate the input. Now it's down to figuring out which are the right tools. I was concerned that the clamshell-type vice block may not work with different upper receivers, so I thought this type from DPMS might be the better way to go: http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/bench-vise-blocks/ar-15-upper-receiver-block-prod17094.aspx

Any recommendations for a bench vice? Does it matter if it's 4" or 5" or 6"?

You need to keep in mind that when you are torquing a barrel on to an upper you will be applying 30, 40, 50 or 60 ft/lbs of torque to the barrel nut which will be transferring that amount to the upper. The bench block you mention will handle that amount of torque to the bench block which will probably pop out of the bench vise the block is being held in. It is not meant to screw a barrel on while using.

[EkuJustice]

Use a clamshell here as I am using just standard uppers so they fit. Unless your gonna go billet or one of the non standard ones a clamshell works great. If your using different look at the magpul one. One thing I do on all mine is square the receiver and lap it for a good fit on the barrel. The tool isn't expensive and it's worth doing.

[Steve O'Connell]

I use this one:

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/barrel-tools/ar-15-m16-reaction-rod-prod55168.aspx

I'll never go back to the clam-shell type. These are solid and make great sense. After the barrel nut is torqued, this type makes the installation of the hand guard and other parts super easy as the upper can be rotated easily and then locked in place.

[CrusaderUSA]

So the idea is that you clamp the barrel wrench into the vice and then put the barrel and upper onto the torque tool before applying the necessary force to the torque tool. Looks easy enough as long as nothing slips.

[Pat Miles]

The Brownells torque rod is half the price of the Geissele and has a 1/2" square cavity in the back that a 1/2" torque wrench fits into. The idea of the barrel nut wrench slipping when in a vise concerned me also. I have put together several uppers with no problems whatsoever. The best tool for the job as far as I am concerned.

[CrusaderUSA]

The Brownells torque rod is half the price of the Geissele and has a 1/2" square cavity in the back that a 1/2" torque wrench fits into. The idea of the barrel nut wrench slipping when in a vise concerned me also. I have put together several uppers with no problems whatsoever. The best tool for the job as far as I am concerned.

Thanks Pat, it's good to hear that you had the same concern but have had good success with the Brownells version. I was looking at the Geissele rod since it has squared ends to clamp into the vice, but I just don't want to pay $100 for it.

What size vice are you using for your upper builds? I have yet to buy one and want to make sure I get one that is suitable for the job.

[Pat Miles]

I have a 5" Wilton vise which is very stout, mounted on a HEAVY work bench.

I had the same thoughts about the Geiselle rod, cost and the flats on the back so it could be mounted in my vise. Once I thought about the Brownells rod I realized that wanted to be able to plug my torque wrench into the center of the rod so I could read what the torque wrench was registering, no need to figure what the offset was doing to my torque values as most barrel nut wrenches have the square hole for the wrench to sit in offset from the center of the barrel nut. I also decided that if I wanted to mount the Brownells wrench vertical in a vise I could just get a piece of 1/2" square steel to mount in the vise and then just put the Brownells rod on it. My thoughts are that the Geiselle rod has no advantage but costs twice as much.

[EDA]

I have both a clamshell and dpms upper block. Uppers like the vltor mur dont need the dpms. I was in your shoes a couple years ago, but after building one and had it work, I've built at least another 7 more in at least 3 other calibers, 300blkout, 6.8spc, 6.5 grendel. Just use quality parts and headspace it.

[wbear]

Don't waste your money on the harder to use Brownell's rod.

If you like the Geissele rod get the exact same thing from Botach for half the price.

Made in the USA and $49.95, free shipping.

https://www.botach.com/kley-zion-armors-ar15-m4-barrel-spline-socket-rod/

Now before someone bashes Botach I will say I have had good luck with them over the years.

I have made 3 orders in the last several months including their rod and received the orders

from CA to IL in 7 or 8 days. They show 168 rods available.

I have not touched my clamshell or barrel blocks since I got the rod.

[Pat Miles]

Don't waste your money on the harder to use Brownell's rod.

How do you figure harder to use?

[wbear]

I feel that having to clamp an AR armorers wrench in the vise instead of the tool makes the setup/use harder than it needs to be.

Not all wrenches are shaped to be firmly secured in a vise and doing it that way limits the versatility of the tool.

Many folks end up using a 1/2" square bar as a workaround to try and make it work like the reaction rod so

why not get the rod to start with especially when it is the same price.

The reaction rod can be clamped directly in the vise vertically or horizontal and never requires a 3rd hand.

It also makes a handy holder when working on uppers.

[Pat Miles]

I understand your view but as I said, I want to be able to read my torque wrench for the value it shows and not have to worry about what torque is being applied because of a 1" or 2" offset that is built into an armorers wrench.

Why would I need a third hand?

[JamesY]

I'd go with a Nordic 18" barrel in 223 wylde. I have two and love them. Low recoil, even with a standard block.

Also, I've always put my own uppers together with no problems using the DPMS action block. I usually torque on the lower end close to 35 ft/lbs or whenever the nut lines up with the gas tube. I haven't had accuracy nor reliability issues in 6+ rifles so I must be doing something right.

[CrusaderUSA]

Thanks for all the great feedback. This really helps increase my comfort with the idea that building the upper myself is the way to go.

I'd first considered the Nordic .223 Wylde barrel, but then found the Mega barrel that was a little lighter. I may still end up going with the Nordic as a couple people have recommended them to me.

[Numidian]

I understand your view but as I said, I want to be able to read my torque wrench for the value it shows and not have to worry about what torque is being applied because of a 1" or 2" offset that is built into an armorers wrench.

Why would I need a third hand?

A 90 degree offset will nullify the need for those calculations.

[Steve RA]

I've got the 18" Nordic with an AP carbon fibre forend and really like them. A friend wanted me to put together an upper for him and I encouraged him to get the rod from Brownell's - mentioned in post #4 above - and it really worked well.

[polymerfeelsweirdman]

Building an upper is not too hard

You need a vice

A torque wrench is essentially a requirement too

Clamshells work well and if it isn't broken and you don't have some weird billet upper then I see no reason to abandon it for a different, more expensive method

Aligning the gas tube right can be a little tricky but not too bad

I think the most annoying part is putting the gas tube roll pin in without the right tools. It is doable with a hammer and pliers like the roll pins in a lower are but way more difficult to do.

[MickB]

I have stopped using a torque wrench. Army manual says 30-85 lb/ft torque, USMC manual says after bbl nut snug/loosen 3x, turn till the gas tube hole aligns.

What I have found is that after the snug/loosen 3x of the bbl nut, the tooth (or hole) of the nut is about one third to half way there, and tightening from that position will get you into the 60-80 lb/ft range.

Mick

Building an upper is not too hard

You need a vice

A torque wrench is essentially a requirement too

Clamshells work well and if it isn't broken and you don't have some weird billet upper then I see no reason to abandon it for a different, more expensive method

Aligning the gas tube right can be a little tricky but not too bad

I think the most annoying part is putting the gas tube roll pin in without the right tools. It is doable with a hammer and pliers like the roll pins in a lower are but way more difficult to do.

[mpom]

Not a smith, just an advanced tinkerer, but torque wrench makes sense for barrel nut, as with barrel nut shims, you can pretty closely get gas tube alignment at any desired torque setting. Supposedly lower torque, while still in recommended range, is more conducive to max accuracy. Some hanguards, such as some Ranier, come with various shims, and they are available as a stand alone item. Also, some proprietary barrel nuts do not have discreet alignment spots, so torque can be whatever you want it to be.

[mpom]

Not a smith, just an advanced tinkerer, but torque wrench makes sense for barrel nut, as with barrel nut shims, you can pretty closely get gas tube alignment at any desired torque setting. Supposedly lower torque, while still in recommended range, is more conducive to max accuracy. Some hanguards, such as some Ranier, come with various shims, and they are available as a stand alone item. Also, some proprietary barrel nuts do not have discreet alignment spots, so torque can be whatever you want it to be.