Using squeeze bags in TO/Practical

[Jmyers89]

Ive searched high and low for an answer to this question, but have been unable to find a definitive answer.

3GN Rule 7.2.2.5 says "Any rifle supporting devices to include but not limited to bipods and or monopods or a device that deploy legs and or supports and elevates the muzzle end of the gun are not permitted. Coupled or single magazines are not considered supporting devices. Forward grips that are less than five (5”) inches long are allowed."

IMGA rules mirror the same.

I shoot TO/Practical, and have a few squeeze bags laying around for precision rifles. I have shot many a stage where tossing a small bag under my handguard would help significantly against a barricade or other object. The PRS guys live and die by squeeze bags of all shapes and sizes. My inner range lawyer construes this rule to mean supporting devices attached to the rifle. So, would most MD's consider having a small squeeze bag in hand to support the rifle a violation of this rule?

[powercatmd]

I have thought the same thing, and will be interested to see what others have to say about this. I have shot a number of 3-Gun matches where a support bag would help improve your position (thinking strong side kneeling), but would not support the rifle directly. These are mainly long range stages that don't require a lot of movement that would really negate the usefullness of the bag in my opinion.

[DocMedic]

"... supports and elevates the muzzle end of the gun are not permitted"

Edited April 29, 2015 by DocMedic

[davsco]

directly supports (ie gun resting on it) vs indirectly supports (ie fore-end held in hand, and hand or elbow etc resting on bag)?

[fishsticks]

I'd say no, as I'd classify a squeeze bag as a "rifle supporting device" which is proscribed in the above quoted rule.

[DocMedic]

I honestly hope everyone I shoot againts takes the time to deploy, setup and use one for every target thats inside of 200-300 yards . I'll just practice my Off-hand

[MarkCO]

The simple "no" that was a mantle of 3gun for years has bowed to IPSC lawyers. 3GN allowed the new Atlas forward rail attachment to be used...when the organizers bend the meaning of words...common sense approaches are worthless. I have seen bags used, and try to be used with different answers from match officials using the same words.

Shorter answer... Ask the MD for the match you want to shoot.

[Bryan 45]

The simple "no" that was a mantle of 3gun for years has bowed to IPSC lawyers. 3GN allowed the new Atlas forward rail attachment to be used...when the organizers bend the meaning of words...common sense approaches are worthless. I have seen bags used, and try to be used with different answers from match officials using the same words.

Shorter answer... Ask the MD for the match you want to shoot.

Well said, Mark. "rifle supporting device" no longer means all rifle supporting devices. It only refers to some rifle supporting devices being prohibited in some divisions, while other rifle supporting devices may be used.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Bryan 45

[ericm]

From the Scanners Ethereal 3 Gun Match rule set:

SE3G Rule (well, you know what rule number) says "Any body contact (arms, legs, torso, head) with the rifle supporting devices to include but not limited to bipods, monopods, or a device that deploy legs and or supports and elevates the muzzle end of the gun is not permitted. Coupled or single magazines are also considered supporting devices, as is any part of the rifle. All supporting devices must be controlled by the shooter's mind only."

ericm

[Doug H.]

I honestly hope everyone I shoot againts takes the time to deploy, setup and use one for every target thats inside of 200-300 yards . I'll just practice my Off-hand

This/\. No need for a bag on shots under 400 yards, we are shooting 3-4 moa targets, not groups. Perhaps a little practice would help more.

Doug

[Jmyers89]

The question that was asked was not "do i need one"...the question that was asked was "is it legal". More practice never hurts, but I didnt ask if I could use a squeeze bag because I can't hit targets inside 300 yards. I asked because it's another tool in the tool bag, and if it's legal I want that advantage where it merits it.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply Mark, that's unfortunately the answer I suspected since the rule is so poorly written IMO.

[B45C22]

I find it hilarious that just a few years ago, right here on Enos, the attitude with 3gun was that Uspsa, ipsc, and idpa, we're all too "range nazi" ish with the many rules that those organizations have. Now, as more and more people move to 3 gun, more rules are needed and supported by some of those that were so against the rules in the first place.

Couple those attitudes with the "pick one and shoot it" crown and you end up right here.

I do not disagree that practice would make us all better, but you can't fault the OP just for asking a question. If he wants to use a bag, he needs the ability to ask if it is legal. He also needs the ability to look in a rule book and see for himself. Perhaps, if the folks writing the rule books had taken the time to consider how the other sports came up with their rule books (out of necessity, not a simple desire to have more rules) there would be a rule book out here that he could refernece.

[Doug H.]

The question that was asked was not "do i need one"...the question that was asked was "is it legal". More practice never hurts, but I didnt ask if I could use a squeeze bag because I can't hit targets inside 300 yards. I asked because it's another tool in the tool bag, and if it's legal I want that advantage where it merits it.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply Mark, that's unfortunately the answer I suspected since the rule is so poorly written IMO.

You sound a little cranky for a guy with a total of 3 posts. There will be plenty of different replies to posts here on BE, take them with a grain of salt and relax a little. Squeezing the mouse too hard will give you cramps.

Doug

[Doug H.]

I find it hilarious that just a few years ago, right here on Enos, the attitude with 3gun was that Uspsa, ipsc, and idpa, we're all too "range nazi" ish with the many rules that those organizations have. Now, as more and more people move to 3 gun, more rules are needed and supported by some of those that were so against the rules in the first place.

Couple those attitudes with the "pick one and shoot it" crown and you end up right here.

I do not disagree that practice would make us all better, but you can't fault the OP just for asking a question. If he wants to use a bag, he needs the ability to ask if it is legal. He also needs the ability to look in a rule book and see for himself. Perhaps, if the folks writing the rule books had taken the time to consider how the other sports came up with their rule books (out of necessity, not a simple desire to have more rules) there would be a rule book out here that he could refernece.

I agree with you, but since bags are almost unheard of in 3 gun, there are no specific rules about them. Every time somebody comes up with a new device or idea we end up with more rules to address the situation. My opinion is that they are a supporting device and would be illegal in TO, but ok in Open. Mark is correct, ask the MD for a ruling before you get bumped to Open.

Doug

[Jmyers89]

The question that was asked was not "do i need one"...the question that was asked was "is it legal". More practice never hurts, but I didnt ask if I could use a squeeze bag because I can't hit targets inside 300 yards. I asked because it's another tool in the tool bag, and if it's legal I want that advantage where it merits it.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply Mark, that's unfortunately the answer I suspected since the rule is so poorly written IMO.

You sound a little cranky for a guy with a total of 3 posts. There will be plenty of different replies to posts here on BE, take them with a grain of salt and relax a little. Squeezing the mouse too hard will give you cramps.

Doug

My post wasn't cranky at all. You didn't answer the question. You have since answered the question, and I appreciate your input. I can now see that the concensus is probably that a squeeze bag would be construed by most to fall under 7.2.2.5 and would be illegal. I have wondered for a long time why squeeze bags are unheard of in 3 gun, when they are so prevalent in other gun games. If a precision rifle guy has a use for one, why couldn't a 3 gun shooter glean any benefit from them in certain scenarios. What I didn't know was if they were unheard of because they were mainly illlegal, if people saw no benefit to them, or had just never considered using them. Equipment and techniques evolve because people choose to question the way things are. If nobody ever did that, we'd all still be shooting Colt HBAR's and 870's from leather holsters.

IMO the way the rule is written is (purposefully) vague, which seems to spit in the face of the big boy rules atmosphere 3 gun has made a name of. The spirit of the rule to me, was to purposefully delineate equipment for divisional purposes. If that's the case, rather than adding a clause to the rule which completely muddies the waters, why not just say "No artificial support devices such as bipods or monopods or any device that deploys more than one leg to support the rifle" and adding the exempt conditions of monopodding off the mag or VFG as already written. Then you are regulating equipment based on finite design principles rather than trying to write an all encompassing rule trying to regulate function. Written that way you would eliminate questions of whether or not the Novseke K9 is legit, or the magpul AFG, or the Atlas rail attachment gizmo so on and so forth. I don't know about you, but given the option if I were offered a squeeze bag or a bipod, I would take the bipod in a heartbeat.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Jmyers89

[MarkCO]

Bi-pods and rear bags are used by some in open BTW.

[CJW]

FWIW, I would have assumed the "supporting devices" rule to mean things attached to the rifle itself.

I am certainly allowed to stick my hand under the stock to support it. I have never seen a set of Tactical division rules that would prevent me from using a GI rifle sling for support, so the idea of a "soft" support seems to have some merit. I imagine that, if I wanted to do so, I could take off my shirt, ball it up, and stick it under the stock (while my squad laughs at me, of course ) if I wanted to take the time to do so. Therefore, a bag actually seems reasonable to me.

Of course, Mark is right on—whenever there is a vague rule, the only way to know for sure is to ask the MD or the RO on the stage where you want to try something. If I were that RO, had no additional input beyond the rule as it tends to be written, and I couldn't get in touch with the MD to make the call, I would probably allow a bag.

[Doug H.]

I use my bipod whenever possible in Open. I use a squeeze bag when I shoot Practical Rifle and I bought a tripod and PIG for that game as well. I just see the extra equipment taking me more time to employ than it's worth in 3 gun.

Doug

[Chuck Anderson]

FWIW, I would have assumed the "supporting devices" rule to mean things attached to the rifle itself.

So can I use shooting sticks?

[Chuck Anderson]

FWIW, I asked Travis Gibson MD of the Ironman, and Troy McManus DNROI for USPSA about the Atlas forend bag (whatever the heck they call that thing). Travis was fine with it for Tactical etc at the Ironman. Troy said only legal in Open for USPSA. Those were the only two three gun matches I'm hitting this year so I didn't inquire further. I do have the Atlas bag. Seems neat. I'll probably use it here and there at the Ironman. I can also see some positions that would benefit from a squeeze bag. The top of a ramp, ladder, or some other awkward positions come to mind. The time it takes to employ one is pretty minimal, especially if you have it tied on, or are able to start in position. I wouldn't rule it out for all matches from a utility perspective. Legality? Who knows? 3GN would probably allow it. Hell they allow a sandbag to be attached to your rifle.

[fishsticks]

FWIW, I would have assumed the "supporting devices" rule to mean things attached to the rifle itself.

So can I use shooting sticks?

Sure, in open!

Like the bag, IMHO shooting sticks are a "rifle supporting device that elevates or supports the muzzle end of the gun".

[Chuck Anderson]

FWIW, I would have assumed the "supporting devices" rule to mean things attached to the rifle itself.

So can I use shooting sticks?

Sure, in open!

Like the bag, IMHO shooting sticks are a "rifle supporting device that elevates or supports the muzzle end of the gun".

Agreed, but they aren't attached to the gun as the quote talks about.

[CJW]

FWIW, I would have assumed the "supporting devices" rule to mean things attached to the rifle itself.

So can I use shooting sticks?

Interesting question. If we go with the rule as pasted by the OP, a shooting stick supports the muzzle but a squeeze bag supports the stock, so by that rule the stick would be out and the bag would be in (unless you use it to support the muzzle/forearm, I suppose). Of course, we use walls and props to support the rifle muzzle all the time, as they are part of the stage and not part of the shooter's equipment. Could I pick up a nicely shaped stick off the course and use that? And I am pretty sure, as I said above, that we allow GI slings that support the muzzle end of the rifle, even in Tactical.

Well, it's not a stretch to note that 3-Gun rules are often poorly, or at least vaguely, written, and as competitive as people in this sport are, it's not surprising that folks will try to push the limits. I have no problem with that. My personal philosophy on rules is that anything that is not explicitly prohibited should be permitted, because I don't want either ROs or shooters guessing as to what is allowed.

If I were starting from a blank slate, my Tac-Ops rules would probably say something about (1) allowable magazine configuration (no drums), (2) no on-gun supporting devices (any allowed mag can be used for support when inserted), and (3) you can't leave behind anything except a detachable magazine or loose ammo. That would mean you can bring a bag or shooting stick with you, but you better carry it until the last shot is fired.

But that's in hypothetical rules land, not specific to the OP's question.

[TyinTX]

I've read the specific rule in the OP and the comments that it is vague or poorly written. I looked at a couple of other rule sets to see if something might be less clear. I see that 3GN has made concessions for some new devices that support the muzzle end of the rifle. I've got no explanation for that other than some people don't read so good.

As for other rule sets I've read, seems pretty cut and dried.

"What's that do?"

"Well it supports the rifle so I can get a better shot, can I use it?"

"No."

Slings would seem to fail the test for being a supporting device. No legs, and while they do support the muzzle with proper technique its a hell of head scratcher to get some elevation with one.

[J.Schmitt]

Well, it's not a stretch to note that 3-Gun rules are often poorly, or at least vaguely, written, and as competitive as people in this sport are, it's not surprising that folks will try to push the limits. I have no problem with that. My personal philosophy on rules is that anything that is not explicitly prohibited should be permitted, because I don't want either ROs or shooters guessing as to what is allowed.

If I were starting from a blank slate, my Tac-Ops rules would probably say something about (1) allowable magazine configuration (no drums), (2) no on-gun supporting devices (any allowed mag can be used for support when inserted), and (3) you can't leave behind anything except a detachable magazine or loose ammo. That would mean you can bring a bag or shooting stick with you, but you better carry it until the last shot is fired.

But that's in hypothetical rules land, not specific to the OP's question.

no drums huh, a drum like the x product 50 may be the best tactical option for someone working out of a vehicle, and youd have a tough time supporting off of it from the ground. For a game that is fast moving I'd point out that although I dont use one it is definitly a viable feeding option for the gun and still holds 10 less than surefire 60.

As for a squeeze bag, no way, unless it is attatched to the rifle and not removed for entire match.

Cant f9inish my thoughtm , got a 3 year old tugging on my arm.

jay