List of 100% Hit Factors

[Thomas H]

(Actually, in the entire list, Production scores are lower that SS scores for all but five classifiers. Huh. I'd think that given that we expect pretty much all A-hits, that reload times there would make a difference.)

I'd like to visit your planet sometime. It would be nice to expect all A-hits. Here on earth, most people don't shoot all A-s on most classifiers, especially if they are shooting major, where it's usually advantageous to speed up enough that you get a few charlies.

I have some experience shooting production, SS minor and SS major. For me personally, it's a wash between production and ss-minor, but SS major definitely has a scoring advantage on most classifiers.

So, for people setting the high hit factors, do we expect them to drop many points?

After all, "most people" don't set the high hit factors.

I fail to see how your comments about what "most people" do have any relevance to what the people setting the high hit factors in matches do.

I'm not really surprised at your attitude, but I'd at least think you wouldn't be taking how "most people" shoot (or how you shoot, or how I shoot) and somehow make that in any way representative of how high hit factors are set.

There are plenty of classifiers in which there are six shots, reload, and six shots. Given that the people who set the high hit factors do not drop many points, the recoil difference between 9mm and .45, and reload difference between a double-stack and a single-stack, I'd expect something different from the classifier HHF. On the other hand, if most were created by simply taking a % of a different division's HHF, it makes sense that things like that wouldn't play a part.

Simple example: On a 12-shot, 10-HHF stage, the major/minor difference in points equates to one tenth of a second in time. If Production and SS people shooting HHFs have equal accuracy and speed, but the SS reload takes only 0.1 second longer, then they are going to have the same score. So---are most SS reloads less than 0.1 seconds longer than Production reloads?

On your planet?

[johnsons1480]

For 13-02, it looks like the HHF was set by Raymond Lopes at open nationals 2012 at 11.7117.

According to classifier calc, limited HHF is set at 9.9502, or 85% of open. Orville Henriques had the limited HHF at 2012 nationals with 9.7324.

Classifier calc lists the production HHF as 9.9502 as well. Jacob Hetherington had the production HHF at 9.4563 at 2012 nationals. According to my personal scores on this, the HHF for production is now 11.5600.

This one must have been changed after it's inception. Does anyone have their HF, division, and percentage from shooting this one recently?

[motosapiens]

So, for people setting the high hit factors, do we expect them to drop many points?

After all, "most people" don't set the high hit factors.

I fail to see how your comments about what "most people" do have any relevance to what the people setting the high hit factors in matches do.

I'm not really surprised at your attitude, but I'd at least think you wouldn't be taking how "most people" shoot (or how you shoot, or how I shoot) and somehow make that in any way representative of how high hit factors are set.

There are plenty of classifiers in which there are six shots, reload, and six shots. Given that the people who set the high hit factors do not drop many points, the recoil difference between 9mm and .45, and reload difference between a double-stack and a single-stack, I'd expect something different from the classifier HHF. On the other hand, if most were created by simply taking a % of a different division's HHF, it makes sense that things like that wouldn't play a part.

Simple example: On a 12-shot, 10-HHF stage, the major/minor difference in points equates to one tenth of a second in time. If Production and SS people shooting HHFs have equal accuracy and speed, but the SS reload takes only 0.1 second longer, then they are going to have the same score. So---are most SS reloads less than 0.1 seconds longer than Production reloads?

On your planet?

I wouldn't say I expect them to drop 'many' points, but I do expect them to drop some. But instead of speculating, why not just go look at the matches where the 13-series hhf's were set and see what the scores looked like (for the ones that haven't been adjusted since then).

Sometimes the diff between 2 divisions is semi-random. Limited might be sky-high because vogel was going for broke trying to make up points on nils, but production was more reasonable because grauffel had a comfortable lead and shot the stage cautiously.

Regarding your simple example.... how do you figure the major minor diff equates to 1/10 second in time? do you mean the difference for each charlie is 1/10 second? If so, then in your example they will only have the same score if each only has 1 charlie.

Edited April 6, 2015 by motosapiens

[fishsticks]

For 13-02, it looks like the HHF was set by Raymond Lopes at open nationals 2012 at 11.7117.

According to classifier calc, limited HHF is set at 9.9502, or 85% of open. Orville Henriques had the limited HHF at 2012 nationals with 9.7324.

Classifier calc lists the production HHF as 9.9502 as well. Jacob Hetherington had the production HHF at 9.4563 at 2012 nationals. According to my personal scores on this, the HHF for production is now 11.5600.

This one must have been changed after it's inception. Does anyone have their HF, division, and percentage from shooting this one recently?

Shot this in Production on 11/23/13

40 pts/7.51 sec = HF 5.3262

USPSA shows this as 56.3243%

[johnsons1480]

Shot this in Production on 11/23/13

40 pts/7.51 sec = HF 5.3262

USPSA shows this as 56.3243%

If that's the case, then the HHF when you shot it was 9.4564, which is ~95% of the Limited HHF of 9.9502, which is ~85% of the Open HHF of 11.7117. These must have been changed by the time I shot it 7/12/2014, because the production HHF now calculates to 11.5600. This is all assuming my score was submitted correctly. It's a 2.8441 HF in practiscore. https://practiscore.com/results.php?uuid=F78FC67E-B60C-4D22-BC2B-9149A1003287&page=stage6PROD

[Thomas H]

I wouldn't say I expect them to drop 'many' points, but I do expect them to drop some. But instead of speculating, why not just go look at the matches where the 13-series hhf's were set and see what the scores looked like (for the ones that haven't been adjusted since then).

Sometimes the diff between 2 divisions is semi-random. Limited might be sky-high because vogel was going for broke trying to make up points on nils, but production was more reasonable because grauffel had a comfortable lead and shot the stage cautiously.

Regarding your simple example.... how do you figure the major minor diff equates to 1/10 second in time? do you mean the difference for each charlie is 1/10 second? If so, then in your example they will only have the same score if each only has 1 charlie.

Isn't that rather the point--that we assume the people shooting the HHFs in the various divisions have the same accuracy level? Or do you think that there is a significant accuracy difference between the people shooting SS and Production? I don't. And looking at the 13-series classifiers really doesn't have much point, because my comment was about how this difference between SS and Production holds for almost all of the classifiers.

And yes, in my example with a 10 HF, the difference between major and minor equates to .1 per charlie hit--and in general, looking at various HHFs and such, most people shooting those HHFs either have all A-hits or perhaps one charlie.

Considering you are replying to a specific comment about the differences between SS and Production HHFs, and we see that this difference occurs in the same fashion for almost all of the classifiers, your contention that "Sometimes the diff between 2 divisions is semi-random" doesn't make much sense, as that would mean that the differences wouldn't be so one-sided.

So again, what are you trying to argue/state?

At least you've dropped the "most people" argument.

[motosapiens]

I wouldn't say I expect them to drop 'many' points, but I do expect them to drop some. But instead of speculating, why not just go look at the matches where the 13-series hhf's were set and see what the scores looked like (for the ones that haven't been adjusted since then).

Sometimes the diff between 2 divisions is semi-random. Limited might be sky-high because vogel was going for broke trying to make up points on nils, but production was more reasonable because grauffel had a comfortable lead and shot the stage cautiously.

Regarding your simple example.... how do you figure the major minor diff equates to 1/10 second in time? do you mean the difference for each charlie is 1/10 second? If so, then in your example they will only have the same score if each only has 1 charlie.

Isn't that rather the point--that we assume the people shooting the HHFs in the various divisions have the same accuracy level? Or do you think that there is a significant accuracy difference between the people shooting SS and Production? I don't. And looking at the 13-series classifiers really doesn't have much point, because my comment was about how this difference between SS and Production holds for almost all of the classifiers.

And yes, in my example with a 10 HF, the difference between major and minor equates to .1 per charlie hit--and in general, looking at various HHFs and such, most people shooting those HHFs either have all A-hits or perhaps one charlie.

Considering you are replying to a specific comment about the differences between SS and Production HHFs, and we see that this difference occurs in the same fashion for almost all of the classifiers, your contention that "Sometimes the diff between 2 divisions is semi-random" doesn't make much sense, as that would mean that the differences wouldn't be so one-sided.

So again, what are you trying to argue/state?

At least you've dropped the "most people" argument.

I'm stating that from what I have observed, many of the best shooters get more than 1 charlie routinely on a 12 round classifier or standards-type stage. Therefore, I think your assertion that 'we expect all A-hits' is wrong.

For example, If you look at last year's nat's stages, cobra venom and el loco ocho, all the top shooters had multiple charlies. On crystal run, only nils got all A's, eveyrone else had multiple charlies. Looking at the 2013 stages that became classifiers (window pain, double deal 2, too close for comfort) shows the same results. multiple charlies for the best limited shooters.

I would expect more alphas from production shooters because the penalty for charlies is higher, but from what I have observed, the top SS guys are also the top Limited guys, so I'd expect them to be shooting the same. I leave it for you as an exercise to find some national-level classifier results for SS that prove me wrong.

Edited April 6, 2015 by motosapiens

[johnsons1480]

Just for a frame of reference on this all As debate, if you can lay down the following points on an El Prez in the time provided, you can get a 95% score in Production

95%=9.7481

60 points = 6.16 seconds

58 points = 5.95 seconds
56 points = 5.74 seconds
54 points = 5.54 seconds
52 points = 5.33 seconds
50 points = 5.13 seconds
48 points = 4.92 seconds
46 points = 4.72 seconds
44 points = 4.51 seconds

[d_striker]

Shot this in Production on 11/23/13

40 pts/7.51 sec = HF 5.3262

USPSA shows this as 56.3243%

If that's the case, then the HHF when you shot it was 9.4564, which is ~95% of the Limited HHF of 9.9502, which is ~85% of the Open HHF of 11.7117. These must have been changed by the time I shot it 7/12/2014, because the production HHF now calculates to 11.5600. This is all assuming my score was submitted correctly. It's a 2.8441 HF in practiscore. https://practiscore.com/results.php?uuid=F78FC67E-B60C-4D22-BC2B-9149A1003287&page=stage6PROD

Classifiercalc shows 9.5 as 100% on 13-02.

[Thomas H]

Shot this in Production on 11/23/13

40 pts/7.51 sec = HF 5.3262

USPSA shows this as 56.3243%

If that's the case, then the HHF when you shot it was 9.4564, which is ~95% of the Limited HHF of 9.9502, which is ~85% of the Open HHF of 11.7117. These must have been changed by the time I shot it 7/12/2014, because the production HHF now calculates to 11.5600. This is all assuming my score was submitted correctly. It's a 2.8441 HF in practiscore. https://practiscore.com/results.php?uuid=F78FC67E-B60C-4D22-BC2B-9149A1003287&page=stage6PROD

Classifiercalc shows 9.5 as 100% on 13-02.

Stoeger ran that in the 2014 Wisconsin Section Championship with a HF of 10.4712, which got him a 90.5813% as a classifier score.

So yes---apparently as of 9/13/14, 11.5600 is the HHF for 13-02.

[Prov1x]

For Can You Count CM 06-03 in Single Stack I know the classifiercalc doesn't do it correctly or cmcalc.

The last two times I have shot it I scored

100 points in 8.10 seconds and a 12.3457 hit factor...cm or cc had it at 75%ish and it actually came out to a 84.6733%

This month 100 points in 7.42 seconds and a 13.4771 hit factor...cm or cc had it at 80%ish and it actually came out to a ? (since the updates hasn't been ran for April yet) but I am guessing based off of the last % difference that it should be in the low 90% range.?

14.58039 is what I'm calculating for the HHF. Let me know what you end up with when the April run happens. It should be about 92.4331%

SINGLESTACK Classifiers Date Number Club F Percent Entered 3/22/15 06-03 ATA PRACTICAL SHOOTERS Y 92.4331

[johnsons1480]

For Can You Count CM 06-03 in Single Stack I know the classifiercalc doesn't do it correctly or cmcalc.

The last two times I have shot it I scored

100 points in 8.10 seconds and a 12.3457 hit factor...cm or cc had it at 75%ish and it actually came out to a 84.6733%

This month 100 points in 7.42 seconds and a 13.4771 hit factor...cm or cc had it at 80%ish and it actually came out to a ? (since the updates hasn't been ran for April yet) but I am guessing based off of the last % difference that it should be in the low 90% range.?

14.58039 is what I'm calculating for the HHF. Let me know what you end up with when the April run happens. It should be about 92.4331%

SINGLESTACK Classifiers Date Number Club F Percent Entered 3/22/15 06-03 ATA PRACTICAL SHOOTERS Y 92.4331

Updated and highlighted. I'll go through later and highlight all the ones I have changed so we can differentiate between my list and what classifier calc says.

[Nimitz]

so now that my arm is in a cast and I can't shoot I've been reading some threads like this one and I'm wondering how the OP's original post about knowing what a 'good' HF on a classifier would be for him prior to shooting it turned into this 3-page ramble about 100% HFs on classifiers and/or the HHF?

Unless you are 90%+ Master trying to make GM or are already a GM who thinks it would be cool to have a 100% classifier percentage (that actually would be kinda cool ...) not really sure why you should care about the HHF or 100% HF ...

what you might want to care about is what HF gets you to your next classification since it's pretty unrealistic to believe that when you walk up to shoot a classifier as a 66% Production shooter you're going to magically turn into Ben Stoeger and shoot it in 5.5 secs with 58 points ....

of course the OP actually had the right answer in his first post when he said he knew he shouldn't be concerned about that kind of stuff prior to shooting but ........

[d_striker]

so now that my arm is in a cast and I can't shoot I've been reading some threads like this one and I'm wondering how the OP's original post about knowing what a 'good' HF on a classifier would be for him prior to shooting it turned into this 3-page ramble about 100% HFs on classifiers and/or the HHF?

Unless you are 90%+ Master trying to make GM or are already a GM who thinks it would be cool to have a 100% classifier percentage (that actually would be kinda cool ...) not really sure why you should care about the HHF or 100% HF ...

what you might want to care about is what HF gets you to your next classification since it's pretty unrealistic to believe that when you walk up to shoot a classifier as a 66% Production shooter you're going to magically turn into Ben Stoeger and shoot it in 5.5 secs with 58 points ....

of course the OP actually had the right answer in his first post when he said he knew he shouldn't be concerned about that kind of stuff prior to shooting but ........

I'm nowhere near shooting 100% classifiers but it's nice having this hhf list on my phone. Then I can easily figure out what my percentage will be without a phone signal.

[Nimitz]

i try to never think about results during a match since that can easily lead to trying to do better .... which is usually not a good idea ... there's plenty of time after the match to get interested in results ....

[trgt]

so now that my arm is in a cast and I can't shoot I've been reading some threads like this one and I'm wondering how the OP's original post about knowing what a 'good' HF on a classifier would be for him prior to shooting it turned into this 3-page ramble about 100% HFs on classifiers and/or the HHF?

Unless you are 90%+ Master trying to make GM or are already a GM who thinks it would be cool to have a 100% classifier percentage (that actually would be kinda cool ...) not really sure why you should care about the HHF or 100% HF ...

what you might want to care about is what HF gets you to your next classification since it's pretty unrealistic to believe that when you walk up to shoot a classifier as a 66% Production shooter you're going to magically turn into Ben Stoeger and shoot it in 5.5 secs with 58 points ....

of course the OP actually had the right answer in his first post when he said he knew he shouldn't be concerned about that kind of stuff prior to shooting but ........

I believe the point was that knowing the HHF lets you then further compute target HF you need to 'level up', whether its, C/B/A, etc.

[Smitty79]

so now that my arm is in a cast and I can't shoot I've been reading some threads like this one and I'm wondering how the OP's original post about knowing what a 'good' HF on a classifier would be for him prior to shooting it turned into this 3-page ramble about 100% HFs on classifiers and/or the HHF?

Unless you are 90%+ Master trying to make GM or are already a GM who thinks it would be cool to have a 100% classifier percentage (that actually would be kinda cool ...) not really sure why you should care about the HHF or 100% HF ...

what you might want to care about is what HF gets you to your next classification since it's pretty unrealistic to believe that when you walk up to shoot a classifier as a 66% Production shooter you're going to magically turn into Ben Stoeger and shoot it in 5.5 secs with 58 points ....

of course the OP actually had the right answer in his first post when he said he knew he shouldn't be concerned about that kind of stuff prior to shooting but ........

I asked the question after having a mental fail on Bang and Clang. I estimated a 100% hit factor would be a little over 2 seconds with all hits. It's a very straight forward stage, so I felt I needed to shoot it in a little over 3 to get near a 50%. As I've shot some El Prez's in practice at a 60% HF, I decided to push it. After 2 misses, on steel, for going to fast, I settled in and finished at 5.96 with all points for a 44.7%. If I'd realized how far off I was in my target time, or just shot what my sights told me to, I'd have probably come in with a low 50's HF and been more solidly into C.

As I'm getting my initial classification, I like having the HF's to see how I'm doing where I don't have cell coverage.

[motosapiens]

I believe the point was that knowing the HHF lets you then further compute target HF you need to 'level up', whether its, C/B/A, etc.

Yes, for folks who can do arithmetic, knowing the HHF is very handy, especially if you are out of cell coverage.

[Thomas H]

Apparently 13-04 has changed---just got Production results back, and apparently the Prod HHF is now the same as the Single Stack HHF, instead of the number that classifiercalc thinks is correct (which it used to be).

13-04 Production now: 11.6505

[johnsons1480]

Apparently 13-04 has changed---just got Production results back, and apparently the Prod HHF is now the same as the Single Stack HHF, instead of the number that classifiercalc thinks is correct (which it used to be).

13-04 Production now: 11.6505

Updated, thanks for the input.

[sundevil827]

so now that my arm is in a cast and I can't shoot I've been reading some threads like this one and I'm wondering how the OP's original post about knowing what a 'good' HF on a classifier would be for him prior to shooting it turned into this 3-page ramble about 100% HFs on classifiers and/or the HHF?

Unless you are 90%+ Master trying to make GM or are already a GM who thinks it would be cool to have a 100% classifier percentage (that actually would be kinda cool ...) not really sure why you should care about the HHF or 100% HF ...

what you might want to care about is what HF gets you to your next classification since it's pretty unrealistic to believe that when you walk up to shoot a classifier as a 66% Production shooter you're going to magically turn into Ben Stoeger and shoot it in 5.5 secs with 58 points ....

of course the OP actually had the right answer in his first post when he said he knew he shouldn't be concerned about that kind of stuff prior to shooting but ........

I'm nowhere near shooting 100% classifiers but it's nice having this hhf list on my phone. Then I can easily figure out what my percentage will be without a phone signal.

Better method?

https://www.facebook.com/ClassifierBooks

Pick up one of Chris Keen's awesome classifier books, figure out what High Hit Factor is, and write it in your book for each classifier. Then you math out what you specifically want to see for your level on each one that you run. Plus it's a handy place to track your history with classifiers, and chart your own progress.

Don't get me wrong, phone is nice, but something that fits in my range bag is a heck of a lot nicer, especially since I can double check each classifier myself.

[Nimitz]

unfortunately all this focus on "what HF do I need to get what classification" before shooting just means you are focusing on results instead of on just executing shooting which leads to trying too hard which leads to poor results ...

better to just focus on shooting and the results will take care of themselves ...

[sundevil827]

unfortunately all this focus on "what HF do I need to get what classification" before shooting just means you are focusing on results instead of on just executing shooting which leads to trying too hard which leads to poor results ...

better to just focus on shooting and the results will take care of themselves ...

For some folks maybe.

However when you understand what you need to do in order to achieve a goal/class, it's pretty easy to build your dry fire, and live fire practice program. Want to earn an "X" card, but not always sure what you need to do? It's easy enough to do the math, and figure out what you need in terms of draw, split, transition, and reload in order to earn that "X" card. (No, that's not everything, and it's not saying you are competitive in the class, it does however give someone a starting point with some pretty basic skills.) When you understand how to break it down, you are focusing on the process to earn the result, and that's a pretty big difference.

If you can measure it, you can improve on it.

Edited May 4, 2015 by sundevil827

[AJE]

unfortunately all this focus on "what HF do I need to get what classification" before shooting just means you are focusing on results instead of on just executing shooting which leads to trying too hard which leads to poor results ...

better to just focus on shooting and the results will take care of themselves ...

I write them in the book and after I'm done shooting, I look at what my percentage will be.

Why? Because I'm a nerd like that.

I don't want to know what it is before I shoot, but I do like having the information immediately available.

[Chills1994]

I am still ASSuming that your individual classifier page at USPSA.org doesn't have the added function of telling you what you need to score on the next classifier in order to move up???

Barring that I am surprised nobody has created an app for that.

Not necessarily tying into your USPSA classifier page