DQ?

[johniac7078]

Would you DQ someone for drawing and starting to load at the line before commanded to do so? On elf my SOs did last night and as MD I concurred. I was shocked to hear people saying that there is no rule against this. I did specifically state not to do so in the safety briefing.

Here the shooters argument, is a long email I received....

2.12. Range Commands

2.12.1. Many of the range commands given to a shooter by the SO are for safety, while the rest are for stage administration.

2.12.2. To allow a shooter to compete anywhere in the world and hear the same commands, the IDPA range commands will only be given in English, the official language of IDPA. These exact range commands must be used and local variations are not allowed.

2.12.3. The complete set of IDPA Range Commands are:

2.12.3.1 Range Is Hot, Eyes and Ears

This is the first command given to the shooter starting the action of shooting a stage. This command signifies the start of the CoF. The shooter will make sure that their eye and hearing protection is in place. It is also notification to anyone in the shooting bay to check their own eye and hearing protection is properly fitted.

2.12.3.2. Load and Make Ready

When the shooter has proper eye and hearing protection, the SO will issue the Load and Make Ready command. The shooter will prepare the firearm and magazines to match the start position for the stage. Typically this is to load the firearm and holster, but may include non-typical loading or staging of equipment. The shooter will then assume the starting position necessary for thestage. If the shooter’s firearm is not loaded for the start of a stage the command used will be “Make Ready.”

......

Conclusion:

Any command between "Range is Hot, Eyes and Ears" and "Load and Make Ready" cannot be part of the "Complete set" of range commands and is therefore a "local variation" that is "not allowed." Applying this rule to the stage in question, which involved "non-typical loading or staging of equipment," the onus is on the shooter to stage magazines in the box after he is asked to "Load and Make Ready."

The reason given for prohibiting deviations from these commands is ostensibly to facilitate understanding by non-English speakers, but likely is also to reduce the number of miscommunications that occur due to the shooter being "in the zone" and misunderstanding or mishearing an unfamiliar command, something not altogether unexpected in a sport that requires all participants to wear ear protection.

Thoughts?

[kaiserb]

Perhaps you should read the section of the rulebook that addresses when a firearm may be handled.

2.10 and following

[Model19]

1.2.7. Firearms may only be loaded, and subsequently unloaded, under the direction of the Safety Officer (SO).

[johniac7078]

Perhaps you should read the section of the rulebook that addresses when a firearm may be handled.

2.10 and following

your point being?

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

2.2.4

[robport]

"2.2.4. Handling a firearm except at the firing line. There are only three instances in which a firearm may be removed from the holster:

2.2.4.1. With verbal instruction from a SO.

2.2.4.2. While engaging targets in a CoF under the direct supervision and visual contact of a SO.

2.2.4.3. When in a designated “Safe Area”."

I believe 2.2.4.1 is the key here. Many of the rest of them refer to "under supervision of" or "by direction of".

This is the one that pretty much sums it up and is in the section where the penalty for an infraction is a DQ.

They might argue though, that when they are called to the line to load, that they were under supervision of the SO and the implied direction was to load and make ready, since that is the next command in the series. They couldn't argue that, if doing it without being called to the line though. They could also argue that the beginning text in 2.2.4 is ambiguous "except at the firing line". That phrase should be covered in 2.2.4.2, so should be unnecessary. The fact that it is there, may be interpreted to mean that 2.2.4 doesn't apply at the firing line at all, so if you loaded at the stage, rather than as a group, it would be a decent argument because it's not written unambiguously.

If you wouldn't disqualify someone for racking the slide to unload and show clear before being told to do so, which I've seen pretty often, then they might also have a point.

This is just the opinion of a untalented competitor though.

[Tarkeg]

It's a DQ. If it's a loaded start, the command is "Load and make ready". If unloaded, it's "Make ready". If the gun comes out of the holster before either of those commands, DQ. That's pretty much what "under the direction of the SO" means.

[robport]

I agree that that's the way the rules were intended and that's what should have happened.

I just don't like the way it's worded.

[Model19]

It is worded poorly when one looks at it in respect to the case in question here. I'll add this as well, you are not called to the line to load. You are called to the line because you are "up" and will be the next shooter to run the COF. The SO or scorer may have called you up, so you go to the stage starting point, but you have not been given the command to load. As a former SO for a half dozen years (being transparent here) I can think of dozens of times the the next shooter is being or has been called up and I was asked a question by the scorer that needed an answer or I needed a second to make sure everybody was safely behind the firing line after taping, thus my attention was not fully on the shooter or his gun. That's why you do not load until the SO commands you to. The SO will start issung commands once he is certain everything is safe, his attention is on you, and we are ready to proceed. Until that point you must remain unloaded and holstered. It used to be everybody understood that. I guess not.

Was the shooter in question here a newb or experienced?

[stick]

1.2.7. Firearms may only be loaded, and subsequently unloaded, under the direction of the Safety Officer (SO).

DQ faster than you can say DQ.

[johniac7078]

It is worded poorly when one looks at it in respect to the case in question here. I'll add this as well, you are not called to the line to load. You are called to the line because you are "up" and will be the next shooter to run the COF. The SO or scorer may have called you up, so you go to the stage starting point, but you have not been given the command to load. As a former SO for a half dozen years (being transparent here) I can think of dozens of times the the next shooter is being or has been called up and I was asked a question by the scorer that needed an answer or I needed a second to make sure everybody was safely behind the firing line after taping, thus my attention was not fully on the shooter or his gun. That's why you do not load until the SO commands you to. The SO will start issung commands once he is certain everything is safe, his attention is on you, and we are ready to proceed. Until that point you must remain unloaded and holstered. It used to be everybody understood that. I guess not.

Was the shooter in question here a newb or experienced?

He shot a few matches, but is a newb.

[Tarkeg]

It is worded poorly when one looks at it in respect to the case in question here. I'll add this as well, you are not called to the line to load. You are called to the line because you are "up" and will be the next shooter to run the COF. The SO or scorer may have called you up, so you go to the stage starting point, but you have not been given the command to load. As a former SO for a half dozen years (being transparent here) I can think of dozens of times the the next shooter is being or has been called up and I was asked a question by the scorer that needed an answer or I needed a second to make sure everybody was safely behind the firing line after taping, thus my attention was not fully on the shooter or his gun. That's why you do not load until the SO commands you to. The SO will start issung commands once he is certain everything is safe, his attention is on you, and we are ready to proceed. Until that point you must remain unloaded and holstered. It used to be everybody understood that. I guess not.

Was the shooter in question here a newb or experienced?

He shot a few matches, but is a newb.

If he's only shot a few matches, he should concentrate more on becoming a safer IDPA competitor, and less on range lawyering.

[kirbinster]

I have DQ'd two people for this exact same infraction, and have seen people DQ'd for the exact same thing at both IDPA and USPSA matches.

[rowdyb]

DQ

[TerryO]

A couple of years ago at a local club while one of our squad is making ready I hear this click, rack, click, rack, click sound behind me. I think, "That sounds vaguely familiar," turn around to see a guy with his M&P out of its holster and he's dry firing towards the squad!!!! I wasn't the only one to turn and look and several of us call him out and call the SO who says, "I didn't see him do it."

I don't shoot there anymore...

[MegaCleanCab]

It s a dq. I have seen it a number of times especially with new shooters and unloaded table starts. The first dq I gave was for one. I was down range clearing a wall and I come back and I was staring down the barrel of the gun.

[robport]

It's not nice to be swept in any situation. I had a little different situation a while back that was "uncomfortable".

I was down range resetting a nasty pain in the butt mechanical target behind a prop barrier when I hear, range is hot, eyes and ears, three shooters to the line.

I was In the one small place (actually really small) that wasn't visible from the half of the range he had walked and checked.

My voice obviously carried when I yelled "cease fire", which has a specific meaning (specific actions, more than stop what your doing) in our range.

He wasn't anywhere near to starting anyone, I came flying out in the open before anyone got close to the line, and he would have seen me if he had actually brought a shooter to the start of the stage, but that RSO still shudders when he sees me.

...he also walks down range and around every prop now.

Yup, good thing we have those rules...and RSO's need to be temporarily replaced if they have to go to the port-a-potty between stages...lol

[Cd662]

"2.2.4. Handling a firearm except at the firing line. There are only three instances in which a firearm may be removed from the holster:

2.2.4.1. With verbal instruction from a SO.

2.2.4.2. While engaging targets in a CoF under the direct supervision and visual contact of a SO.

2.2.4.3. When in a designated “Safe Area”."

I believe 2.2.4.1 is the key here. Many of the rest of them refer to "under supervision of" or "by direction of".

This is the one that pretty much sums it up and is in the section where the penalty for an infraction is a DQ.

They might argue though, that when they are called to the line to load, that they were under supervision of the SO and the implied direction was to load and make ready, since that is the next command in the series. They couldn't argue that, if doing it without being called to the line though. They could also argue that the beginning text in 2.2.4 is ambiguous "except at the firing line". That phrase should be covered in 2.2.4.2, so should be unnecessary. The fact that it is there, may be interpreted to mean that 2.2.4 doesn't apply at the firing line at all, so if you loaded at the stage, rather than as a group, it would be a decent argument because it's not written unambiguously.

If you wouldn't disqualify someone for racking the slide to unload and show clear before being told to do so, which I've seen pretty often, then they might also have a point.

This is just the opinion of a untalented competitor though.

That line of logic makes no sense. The competitor can rack the slide of the pistol while attempting to complete the stage. That is a sanctioned, legal action. Once the start signal goes off, he could just stand in the open and rack his slide 18 times. The stage would be scored accordingly and he wouldn't have violated any safety measures. There are no action pistol disciplines that allow you to just whip out your gun and load it whenever. In almost every other shooting discipline, there is some manner of allowing people to load their guns at a certain time.

Would you DQ someone for drawing and starting to load at the line before commanded to do so? On elf my SOs did last night and as MD I concurred. I was shocked to hear people saying that there is no rule against this. I did specifically state not to do so in the safety briefing.

Here the shooters argument, is a long email I received....

2.12. Range Commands

2.12.1. Many of the range commands given to a shooter by the SO are for safety, while the rest are for stage administration.

2.12.2. To allow a shooter to compete anywhere in the world and hear the same commands, the IDPA range commands will only be given in English, the official language of IDPA. These exact range commands must be used and local variations are not allowed.

2.12.3. The complete set of IDPA Range Commands are:

2.12.3.1 Range Is Hot, Eyes and Ears

This is the first command given to the shooter starting the action of shooting a stage. This command signifies the start of the CoF. The shooter will make sure that their eye and hearing protection is in place. It is also notification to anyone in the shooting bay to check their own eye and hearing protection is properly fitted.

2.12.3.2. Load and Make Ready

When the shooter has proper eye and hearing protection, the SO will issue the Load and Make Ready command. The shooter will prepare the firearm and magazines to match the start position for the stage. Typically this is to load the firearm and holster, but may include non-typical loading or staging of equipment. The shooter will then assume the starting position necessary for thestage. If the shooter’s firearm is not loaded for the start of a stage the command used will be “Make Ready.”

......

Conclusion:

Any command between "Range is Hot, Eyes and Ears" and "Load and Make Ready" cannot be part of the "Complete set" of range commands and is therefore a "local variation" that is "not allowed." Applying this rule to the stage in question, which involved "non-typical loading or staging of equipment," the onus is on the shooter to stage magazines in the box after he is asked to "Load and Make Ready."

The reason given for prohibiting deviations from these commands is ostensibly to facilitate understanding by non-English speakers, but likely is also to reduce the number of miscommunications that occur due to the shooter being "in the zone" and misunderstanding or mishearing an unfamiliar command, something not altogether unexpected in a sport that requires all participants to wear ear protection.

Thoughts?

Thoughts is that there are still way too many commands and people still end up inserting their own, even at major events. What is worse is when this turns into a race to say whatever, and then the competitor is trying to hear what the SO is saying because its not a regular safety command, and then they get short beeped, eg

"Facing downrange, load and make ready. Does the shooter understand the course of fire? The shooter understands the course of fire, Is the shooter ready? The shooter indicates that he is ready standbyBEEP"

That one is pretty common in these parts.

[Tarkeg]

"2.2.4. Handling a firearm except at the firing line. There are only three instances in which a firearm may be removed from the holster:

2.2.4.1. With verbal instruction from a SO.

2.2.4.2. While engaging targets in a CoF under the direct supervision and visual contact of a SO.

2.2.4.3. When in a designated “Safe Area”."

I believe 2.2.4.1 is the key here. Many of the rest of them refer to "under supervision of" or "by direction of".

This is the one that pretty much sums it up and is in the section where the penalty for an infraction is a DQ.

They might argue though, that when they are called to the line to load, that they were under supervision of the SO and the implied direction was to load and make ready, since that is the next command in the series. They couldn't argue that, if doing it without being called to the line though. They could also argue that the beginning text in 2.2.4 is ambiguous "except at the firing line". That phrase should be covered in 2.2.4.2, so should be unnecessary. The fact that it is there, may be interpreted to mean that 2.2.4 doesn't apply at the firing line at all, so if you loaded at the stage, rather than as a group, it would be a decent argument because it's not written unambiguously.

If you wouldn't disqualify someone for racking the slide to unload and show clear before being told to do so, which I've seen pretty often, then they might also have a point.

This is just the opinion of a untalented competitor though.

That line of logic makes no sense. The competitor can rack the slide of the pistol while attempting to complete the stage. That is a sanctioned, legal action. Once the start signal goes off, he could just stand in the open and rack his slide 18 times. The stage would be scored accordingly and he wouldn't have violated any safety measures. There are no action pistol disciplines that allow you to just whip out your gun and load it whenever. In almost every other shooting discipline, there is some manner of allowing people to load their guns at a certain time.

Would you DQ someone for drawing and starting to load at the line before commanded to do so? On elf my SOs did last night and as MD I concurred. I was shocked to hear people saying that there is no rule against this. I did specifically state not to do so in the safety briefing.

Here the shooters argument, is a long email I received....

2.12. Range Commands[/size]

2.12.1. Many of the range commands given to a shooter by the SO are for safety, while the rest are for stage administration.[/size]

2.12.2. To allow a shooter to compete anywhere in the world and hear the same commands, the IDPA range commands will only be given in English, the official language of IDPA. These exact range commands must be used and local variations are not allowed.[/size]

2.12.3. The complete set of IDPA Range Commands are:

2.12.3.1 Range Is Hot, Eyes and Ears

This is the first command given to the shooter starting the action of shooting a stage. This command signifies the start of the CoF. The shooter will make sure that their eye and hearing protection is in place. It is also notification to anyone in the shooting bay to check their own eye and hearing protection is properly fitted.[/size]

2.12.3.2. Load and Make Ready

When the shooter has proper eye and hearing protection, the SO will issue the Load and Make Ready command. The shooter will prepare the firearm and magazines to match the start position for the stage. Typically this is to load the firearm and holster, but may include non-typical loading or staging of equipment. The [/size]shooter will then assume the starting position necessary for the[/size]stage. If the shooter’s firearm is not loaded for the start of a stage the command used will be “Make Ready.” [/size]

......

Conclusion:

Any command between "Range is Hot, Eyes and Ears" and "Load and Make Ready" cannot be part of the "Complete set" of range commands and is therefore a "local variation" that is "not allowed." Applying this rule to the stage in question, which involved "non-typical loading or staging of equipment," the onus is on the shooter to stage magazines in the box after he is asked to "Load and Make Ready."

The reason given for prohibiting deviations from these commands is ostensibly to facilitate understanding by non-English speakers, but likely is also to reduce the number of miscommunications that occur due to the shooter being "in the zone" and misunderstanding or mishearing an unfamiliar command, something not altogether unexpected in a sport that requires all participants to wear ear protection.

Thoughts?

Thoughts is that there are still way too many commands and people still end up inserting their own, even at major events. What is worse is when this turns into a race to say whatever, and then the competitor is trying to hear what the SO is saying because its not a regular safety command, and then they get short beeped, eg

"Facing downrange, load and make ready. Does the shooter understand the course of fire? The shooter understands the course of fire, Is the shooter ready? The shooter indicates that he is ready standbyBEEP"

That one is pretty common in these parts.

When they do that, hand them one of these..

The IDPA Range Commands to start a stage are:

Range Is Hot, Eyes and Ears

Load and Make Ready

Are You Ready?

Standby

The IDPA Range Commands to end a stage are:

If Finished, Unload and Show Clear

If Clear, Slide Forward or Close Cylinder

Pull The Trigger

Holster

Range Is Clear

[robport]

"That line of logic makes no sense. The competitor can rack the slide of the pistol while attempting to complete the stage. That is a sanctioned, legal action. Once the start signal goes off, he could just stand in the open and rack his slide 18 times. The stage would be scored accordingly and he wouldn't have violated any safety measures. There are no action pistol disciplines that allow you to just whip out your gun and load it whenever. In almost every other shooting discipline, there is some manner of allowing people to load their guns at a certain time."

If I understand you correctly, I have to disagree. I believe it's as important or even more so to follow the SO's instructions to the letter and not get ahead of them, when unloading. That's the time I've actually seen several competitors discharge their firearms unintentionally...yes they were DQ'ed, but for the discharge, not failure to follow instructions.

My comments concern how the rules were written (what wording) and a concern for allowing "range lawyers" any latitude to slip in an argument, not the logic or the necessity of the rule itself. I see the rules as necessary risk mitigation.

[Sandbagger123]

It's not nice to be swept in any situation. I had a little different situation a while back that was "uncomfortable".

I was down range resetting a nasty pain in the butt mechanical target behind a prop barrier when I hear, range is hot, eyes and ears, three shooters to the line.

I was In the one small place (actually really small) that wasn't visible from the half of the range he had walked and checked.

My voice obviously carried when I yelled "cease fire", which has a specific meaning (specific actions, more than stop what your doing) in our range.

He wasn't anywhere near to starting anyone, I came flying out in the open before anyone got close to the line, and he would have seen me if he had actually brought a shooter to the start of the stage, but that RSO still shudders when he sees me.

...he also walks down range and around every prop now.

Yup, good thing we have those rules...and RSO's need to be temporarily replaced if they have to go to the port-a-potty between stages...lol

This is a failure between the SO and the second SO/Scorekeeper. lots of people think that the scorekeepers job is only to keep score and nothing else. He is the second pair of eyes that is supposed to work with the other SO to keep the range safe. Many times when i SO i make sure the other guy is doing his job. If he is new i explain what is expected of him. Too many times when i am not working i see the other SO just fooling around and talking to other shooters. Not on my watch.

[Sandbagger123]

"2.2.4. Handling a firearm except at the firing line. There are only three instances in which a firearm may be removed from the holster:

2.2.4.1. With verbal instruction from a SO.

2.2.4.2. While engaging targets in a CoF under the direct supervision and visual contact of a SO.

2.2.4.3. When in a designated “Safe Area”."

I believe 2.2.4.1 is the key here. Many of the rest of them refer to "under supervision of" or "by direction of".

This is the one that pretty much sums it up and is in the section where the penalty for an infraction is a DQ.

They might argue though, that when they are called to the line to load, that they were under supervision of the SO and the implied direction was to load and make ready, since that is the next command in the series. They couldn't argue that, if doing it without being called to the line though. They could also argue that the beginning text in 2.2.4 is ambiguous "except at the firing line". That phrase should be covered in 2.2.4.2, so should be unnecessary. The fact that it is there, may be interpreted to mean that 2.2.4 doesn't apply at the firing line at all, so if you loaded at the stage, rather than as a group, it would be a decent argument because it's not written unambiguously.

If you wouldn't disqualify someone for racking the slide to unload and show clear before being told to do so, which I've seen pretty often, then they might also have a point.

This is just the opinion of a untalented competitor though.

That line of logic makes no sense. The competitor can rack the slide of the pistol while attempting to complete the stage. That is a sanctioned, legal action. Once the start signal goes off, he could just stand in the open and rack his slide 18 times. The stage would be scored accordingly and he wouldn't have violated any safety measures. There are no action pistol disciplines that allow you to just whip out your gun and load it whenever. In almost every other shooting discipline, there is some manner of allowing people to load their guns at a certain time.

Would you DQ someone for drawing and starting to load at the line before commanded to do so? On elf my SOs did last night and as MD I concurred. I was shocked to hear people saying that there is no rule against this. I did specifically state not to do so in the safety briefing.

Here the shooters argument, is a long email I received....

2.12. Range Commands

2.12.1. Many of the range commands given to a shooter by the SO are for safety, while the rest are for stage administration.

2.12.2. To allow a shooter to compete anywhere in the world and hear the same commands, the IDPA range commands will only be given in English, the official language of IDPA. These exact range commands must be used and local variations are not allowed.

2.12.3. The complete set of IDPA Range Commands are:

2.12.3.1 Range Is Hot, Eyes and Ears

This is the first command given to the shooter starting the action of shooting a stage. This command signifies the start of the CoF. The shooter will make sure that their eye and hearing protection is in place. It is also notification to anyone in the shooting bay to check their own eye and hearing protection is properly fitted.

2.12.3.2. Load and Make Ready

When the shooter has proper eye and hearing protection, the SO will issue the Load and Make Ready command. The shooter will prepare the firearm and magazines to match the start position for the stage. Typically this is to load the firearm and holster, but may include non-typical loading or staging of equipment. The shooter will then assume the starting position necessary for thestage. If the shooter’s firearm is not loaded for the start of a stage the command used will be “Make Ready.”

......

Conclusion:

Any command between "Range is Hot, Eyes and Ears" and "Load and Make Ready" cannot be part of the "Complete set" of range commands and is therefore a "local variation" that is "not allowed." Applying this rule to the stage in question, which involved "non-typical loading or staging of equipment," the onus is on the shooter to stage magazines in the box after he is asked to "Load and Make Ready."

The reason given for prohibiting deviations from these commands is ostensibly to facilitate understanding by non-English speakers, but likely is also to reduce the number of miscommunications that occur due to the shooter being "in the zone" and misunderstanding or mishearing an unfamiliar command, something not altogether unexpected in a sport that requires all participants to wear ear protection.

Thoughts?

Thoughts is that there are still way too many commands and people still end up inserting their own, even at major events. What is worse is when this turns into a race to say whatever, and then the competitor is trying to hear what the SO is saying because its not a regular safety command, and then they get short beeped, eg

"Facing downrange, load and make ready. Does the shooter understand the course of fire? The shooter understands the course of fire, Is the shooter ready? The shooter indicates that he is ready standbyBEEP"

That one is pretty common in these parts.

Watch enough videos and you will still hear all of the above in matches. old habits die hard.

[xd1977]

Yep..plain and simple..DQ.

[M1911]

Yes, it's a DQ.

[Cd662]

"That line of logic makes no sense. The competitor can rack the slide of the pistol while attempting to complete the stage. That is a sanctioned, legal action. Once the start signal goes off, he could just stand in the open and rack his slide 18 times. The stage would be scored accordingly and he wouldn't have violated any safety measures. There are no action pistol disciplines that allow you to just whip out your gun and load it whenever. In almost every other shooting discipline, there is some manner of allowing people to load their guns at a certain time."

If I understand you correctly, I have to disagree. I believe it's as important or even more so to follow the SO's instructions to the letter and not get ahead of them, when unloading. That's the time I've actually seen several competitors discharge their firearms unintentionally...yes they were DQ'ed, but for the discharge, not failure to follow instructions.

My comments concern how the rules were written (what wording) and a concern for allowing "range lawyers" any latitude to slip in an argument, not the logic or the necessity of the rule itself. I see the rules as necessary risk mitigation.

The safety officer isn't supposed to stop a safe, legal action from being committed. That kind of interference would constitute in a reshoot opportunity for the competitor. The IDPA rule states that the firearm has to be unloaded under Safety Officer direction. If a competitor starts to unload and show clear, the safety officer cannot prove if the shooter is actually finished shooting or not. There would be no way to prove if the person felt poorly about the stage and was thinking about giving up, or if they wanted to take 5 seconds to reload, or planned on continuing shooting and wanted to admire the scenery for awhile before doing so. When a competitor quickly unloads and shows clear, it "does not count" if the SO does not call the commands and call the range clear. If a competitor rushes through the process and quickly holsters, that doesn't make the range clear. The SO would have to repeat the "If you are finished, unload and show clear" command. By USPSA standards, once the competitor starts the unloading process AFTER this command is finished, he or she cannot shoot any longer. To my knowledge, IDPA doesn't have any rule like that. If someone holstered and walked down range to look at targets, that in and of itself is not an illegal or unsafe action. I would follow the shooter and repeat the command.

Returning to the scenario, as I stated earlier, I would uphold a DQ. The biggest offenders of that rule are new individuals. While its overkill, I also usually ask the proper range command if an incorrect one isn't given. For example, if someone says "Gas it up!" I'll ask, "Load and Make Ready?" and wait for affirmation.