New Major Cartridge for Limited?

[Whoops!]

I think they got to the "why not" and found that to be enough

[CZinZA]

Post #9 explained why ipsc did it.

Not sure why uspsa followed

[bikerburgess]

A request was made, and nobody could come up with a reason not to allow it. If you can think of one I would be interested in hearing it?

[Sarge]

Did we ever get to the "why" of allowing 357Sig?

Nope

[SteveU]

I really don't see why not. It makes power factor and there is no mag capacity advantage over 40.

Pretty sure that sums it up.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

The why as presented to my A7 Director was there are many LE agencies using the cartridge (Note, it was not a bullet that was approved, it was a cartridge) If these people use their duty firearm with factory ammo in Limited or L10, they were scored minor by rule when their factory produced ammunition made major power factor.

I have competed in L10 and Production with the cartridge and was always scored minor. I understood that when I started. It was approached more as a why not rather than a why.

As a USPSA member, I have the right to ask for a rule change through my Director and I chose to do that. I tested factory ammunition under Area match chrono conditions and I presented that to my director. I also spoke with DNROI and showed him the results. Everything was done in the open and as a member, I am very pleased that the BOD chose to honor the request I made. Other sports do not have that option.

Approving 357SIG hurts no one. It does not create any advantage or disadvantage to anyone but it allows a group of shooters to use what they carry and have ammunition available for to compete on a level playing field with no penalty by being scored major while using major power factor ammunition rather than minor.

Another argument that was presented was if it brings 100 new members or new shooters to the sport, it was worth the change.

Is 357SIG for everyone? Most likely not. BUT, it is a factory loaded major power factor cartridge and should be scored as such.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[PKT1106]

Oh, I know. There seems to be no advantages on paper. From a cursory glance at the Hodgdon reloading data, it looks like 800x and Longshot are the best bets to stay away from max pressures at a given bullet weight and get PF. They are fairly fast powders on the burn rate charts, not as fast as some that are widely used (WST, N320, TG).

If you already shoot 357sig, I can see it as a boon for you to shoot major with it. Other than that, if you shoot 40, you would need new brass or dies and bullets. If you shoot 9, you would need new brass and dies. I don't think people are going to run out and by 357sig components quite yet, though. Good for you if you already had it.

Have we heard anything about problems relating to bottle-neck cartridges in IPSC? Shoulder separations? Chambering issues from not bumping the shoulder back?

[bikerburgess]

Problems?

Yep poorly loaded ammo can cause chambering issues (this is true of all rounds that's why they all case gages) I have never had any other problems but I normally lose my brass before it gets reloaded more than a couple times.

That said what do reloading issues have to do with a rule change to allow a round that easily makes powder factor and had no advantage over the 40sw round that dominates the division? It's like saying 9 major is dangerous in one type of custom 2011 but safe in another. That rule is there so as to not obsolete most of the guns in the division this doesn't even come close to doing that, the sig is still a inferior to the 40 for limited major so all we have done is allow shooters to be less handicapped

[PKT1106]

Sorry, I was just asking a technical question, stand down. More just looking at a rule change from different perspective, not just the rule change itself. Going from straight-wall to bottleneck may not be a huge thing, but some people may take it for granted and jump into it without a full review of the process.

[motosapiens]

We are talking limited division here. Limited division still says 40

Right, but .357 mag is allowed

for major in revolver, so it seems reasonable that 357 sig should be allowed for major in limited. That is what I understood roundgunshooter to be saying, and I would totally agree, even tho I think it's a silly round for competition if you have a choice. Obviously, not everyone has a choice.

allowing 357 sig in lim major has nothing to do with 357 mag being legal in REVO. After all 38 super and 9Major are legal in REVO too right?

If you say so. It sounds like the former DNROI disagrees with you, but you could still be right.

Edited January 9, 2015 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

Did we ever get to the "why" of allowing 357Sig?

Nope

Really? I got the why, and now roundgunshooter has posted it again. This is a curious thread. I'm not sure why anyone should care about 357 sig except the handful of people that shoot it.

Edited January 9, 2015 by motosapiens

[Sarge]

We are talking limited division here. Limited division still says 40

Right, but .357 mag is allowed

for major in revolver, so it seems reasonable that 357 sig should be allowed for major in limited. That is what I understood roundgunshooter to be saying, and I would totally agree, even tho I think it's a silly round for competition if you have a choice. Obviously, not everyone has a choice.

allowing 357 sig in lim major has nothing to do with 357 mag being legal in REVO. After all 38 super and 9Major are legal in REVO too right?

If you say so. It sounds like the former DNROI disagrees with you, but you could still be right.

What do you mean? Rule book says minimum bullet/caliber is 38/9x19 .354

[9x45]

Have we heard anything about problems relating to bottle-neck cartridges in IPSC? Shoulder separations? Chambering issues from not bumping the shoulder back?

I have been running my G31 on classifier stages for the last few years. I load only once fired and un-trimmed brass and get about a 5% loss as a result of squashing the case or messing up the crimp (using a Lee Factory Crimp, floating). Seems like the .357 is easier to squash than 9/40/45. And it's odd because this round only has the very slightest of crimp. Nobody yet makes a chamber check gage for this round, the gages availalble are for checking the 'as sized' case for OAL (which should then be trimmed). I chamber check each round. Pictured are ones that fit the case check but not the barrel chamber (OEM Glock).

[motosapiens]

We are talking limited division here. Limited division still says 40

Right, but .357 mag is allowed

for major in revolver, so it seems reasonable that 357 sig should be allowed for major in limited. That is what I understood roundgunshooter to be saying, and I would totally agree, even tho I think it's a silly round for competition if you have a choice. Obviously, not everyone has a choice.

allowing 357 sig in lim major has nothing to do with 357 mag being legal in REVO. After all 38 super and 9Major are legal in REVO too right?

If you say so. It sounds like the former DNROI disagrees with you, but you could still be right.

What do you mean? Rule book says minimum bullet/caliber is 38/9x19 .354

I mean this:

At the request of some Sig staff, I approached John Amidon and asked his unofficial opinion. He felt there was no reason for 357SIG to not be considered major as 357MAG had already been accepted.

But whatever. I don't shoot it, and I don't work the chrono station, so this will have no effect on me except possibly when picking up brass.

[Matt1]

If you already shoot .40 then there's no real need to change. If you did though you'd only need a barrel and dies (and possibly bullets too depending on what you use, we load up to 180gn in Sig here).

Otherwise everything else is the same. You can even use the same brass.

If you shoot 9 and want to make major then either way you had to change.

[RJH]

I think this is a fine idea. I would also support allowing 38 super to make major in L10 and SS. There are plenty of book loads that make major without having crazy pressures and it would be a better major/minor gun in SS than a 40 because of the Mags and the OAL problems that some have. And there would be no capacity issues since you are already restricted in those divisions.

[Sarge]

I think this is a fine idea. I would also support allowing 38 super to make major in L10 and SS. There are plenty of book loads that make major without having crazy pressures and it would be a better major/minor gun in SS than a 40 because of the Mags and the OAL problems that some have. And there would be no capacity issues since you are already restricted in those divisions.

L10 might be OK but SS allows more rounds in minor than it does in MAJOR. You could get more supers in a mag than other MAJOR rounds. Plus why not allow 9MAJOR if you are going to allow 38 super? It's perfectly safe if loaded properly.

[RJH]

In SS you would only load 8 if shooting major and 10 if shooting minor just like the guys shooting 40 s&w do now. If 9 major is ok without a comp then I'd be fine with that too. I figure if you can make power factor and you get no capacity advantage like would be the case in limited, then there is no real reason not to allow the other calibers.

[bikerburgess]

In SS you would only load 8 if shooting major and 10 if shooting minor just like the guys shooting 40 s&w do now. If 9 major is ok without a comp then I'd be fine with that too. I figure if you can make power factor and you get no capacity advantage like would be the case in limited, then there is no real reason not to allow the other calibers.

I couldn't agree more.

[djeffers]

Personally, I like the idea as it can let people shoot what they brung. Also, if you allow 9mm major in open, why not the other divisions? I would say let people shoot what they want and time will tell what is competitive and what people prefer to shoot.

On the other hand, I am cheap and I get more 9mm bullets for the same $$$ as 40. Makes me toy with the idea of trying 357 sig. Also, makes me think of Extreme bullets 165 grain 9mm and how that would fair loaded for major.

[kneelingatlas]

Also, if you allow 9mm major in open, why not the other divisions?

A few reasons I can think of:

-Compensators. Comps are allowed in Open and they do a lot to dissipate the high energy of a 9mm major round making it easier on the gun and the shooter.

-also the most advantageous reloading approach with a comp (slow powder/light bullet) is much safer than that of a non-compensated pistol (fast powder/heavy bullet)

-added capacity without a scoring disadvantage would be a game changer

-creates another division with a wide gap in 'competitiveness' between hand loaded ammo and off the shelf ammo.

I won't argue whether these effects are good or bad for the sport, but these are the effects as I see them (and as a 9mm major shooter in Open I dont really have a dog in this hunt

Also, makes me think of Extreme bullets 165 grain 9mm and how that would fair loaded for major.

This is an interesting idea! Looking at book data from Hodgdon, I suspect you could make major with pretty fast powder in 357 Sig with a 165gr pill which should be much softer than a 40 major round using a 165gr bullet*

*I did an experiment with 40 minor vs 9 minor in my Stock II: I loaded 3.5gr of Clays behind a plated 135 in both 9mm and 40; the 9 made 125PF, while the 40 only made 103PF. Even at 125 vs 103, the 40 resulted in a significantly harsher recoil impulse. This leads me to conclude that for any given powder/charge/bullet weight the smaller diameter bullet should be faster/softer although I'd love to test more data points (like 200gr in 40 and 45).

Edited February 13, 2015 by kneelingatlas

[aandabooks]

I tossed this idea around when I first heard about the .357sig ruling. I ended up trading into a G27 with a .357sig barrel. Like the recoil impulse of the sig round better than .40. So much so that I now have a barrel coming for my xdm. Bought 1000 once fired cases and for range use I'm running 125gr S&S RN no lube groove coated. Wanted to go with a heavier bullet but finding a properly profiled bullet is proving to be a bit of a problem.

I'm in the process of setting the XDM up for Limited. I'll still be shooting my other XDM in Production first.