terrydoc Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 (edited) Sorry Mike IPSC has allowed the HS/ XD from when they first got released I used a HS2000 from around 2007 IIRC until last year there was never a time they weren't on the Production list. Just reviewing the IPSC forum and the HS2000/ Springfield XD were approved back in 2005 Edited December 23, 2014 by terrydoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted December 23, 2014 Author Share Posted December 23, 2014 (edited) The rules do prohibit S/A pistols, because to shoot Production the guns must be on the lis,t as they are not on it they are prohibited by exception. Try using a S/A and let me know if you are allowed?Not that it matters to the discussion but I am not someone who wandered in off of the street who wants to shoot a SA in Production. I am a NROI CRO and Production Master ( http://uspsa.org/uspsa-classifer-lookup-results.php?Submit=Lookup&number=TY47309 )I am not advocating for SA guns by any stretch. Just trying to verify that the USPSA Production rules got screwed up at some point and it isn't just me overlooking the obvious. As written now the USPSA rules say nothing about the action type in the requirements to submit a gun for inclusion on the Production list. An SA only gun would never be added to that list but I think based on this thread I can confirm that the DA/striker fired requirement for Production is not currently supported by any clear section in the current version of the USPSA rulebook. Well whipty friggin doooo . you are CRO and a Master level shooter!?! And that means what exactly? So, you found a problem with the rule book. Get in line with the rest of us. The approved gun list is part of the rules. Who gives a flying fu#% that it's not addressed elsewhere? Kevin, the only reason that I mentioned my classification and certification was to attempt to communicate that I am not someone who wandered in here off the streets looking to run a single stack in Production. I am doing analysis of USPSA rules for near term project and wanted to ensure I wasn't missing something significant. Yes, there is an approved list and a process to get on that list but that process should be outlined and supported by clearly defined and documented rules. As it stands if I were a new shooter looking at the USPSA rule book I would have no basis to know that single action guns were not allowed save using the process of elimination on the approved Production gun list. That doesn't change anything but it also doesn't mean you have to be a jerk about it. Edited December 23, 2014 by alma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRush Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Sorry Mike IPSC has allowed the HS/ XD from when they first got released I used a HS2000 from around 2007 IIRC until last year there was never a time they weren't on the Production list. Just reviewing the IPSC forum and the HS2000/ Springfield XD were approved back in 2005 Don't confused never with changed a while ago. When they were released, they were not approved. If approval happened in 2005 then from release through 2004 XD/HS2000 were not allowed in IPSC Prod. Maybe where you are they weren't imported until 2007? In the US the XDs started coming in around 2002. The threads where Vince Pinto himself was engaging in discussion about DA and striker fired Production guns are on this forum, where he repeatedly and emphatically stated they were NOT approved for production. I can link it up for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 My only issue with the "no single action rule" is that it specifically excludes guns like the Browning Hi-Power from Production. The only options you have are Limited and Lim10, and you'd be shooting minor PF with the vast majority of BHP guns. Stupid rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 The Glock is different as the striker is pulled further to the rear by the trigger bar. This does not happen with the M&P. Depends who you talk to. Can you answer the question as to whether or not the rearward travel of the Glock striker is necessary for primer detonation? Given the safety design at the interface of the trigger bar and connector, the rearward movement is neccisary for release of the striker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 (edited) My only issue with the "no single action rule" is that it specifically excludes guns like the Browning Hi-Power from Production. The only options you have are Limited and Lim10, and you'd be shooting minor PF with the vast majority of BHP guns. Stupid rule. Honestly, they probably belong in a classic-type division with the 1911 loaded to 10 minor.Edited for spelling. Edited December 23, 2014 by PatJones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 I think the point is if one were to submit paperwork to the DNROI for say a Springfield 1911 in 9mm, it would be denied but under what rule would he deny the request for inclusion? if allowed they would still have to start hammer down and that would suck so there probably wouldn't be a big rush to shoot them in production any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted December 23, 2014 Author Share Posted December 23, 2014 This ^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Alma If I was being a jerk I'm sorry. When somebody throws credentials out there I tupically stop listening or reading. That probably stems from a paper GM criticizing me for not taking his advice on how to shoot a stage. His exact words were, "when a GM tells you how to shoot a stage, shoot it that way". I'm pretty tone deaf to that kind of talk nowadays. Anyway, sorry for being a jerk. Besides I'm off for two weeks and don't want to get suspended right now! Everything I say gets the stink eye from my buds on the moderator team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 Can I have some re-hash with my eggs? Interesting reading.... http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=133686&hl=%2Brule+%2Bfor+%2Bda+%2Bonly+%2Bin+%2Bproduction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 Alma If I was being a jerk I'm sorry. Besides I'm off for two weeks and don't want to get suspended right now! Everything I say gets the stink eye from my buds on the moderator team. Come on man...really still? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted December 24, 2014 Author Share Posted December 24, 2014 Can I have some re-hash with my eggs? Interesting reading.... http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=133686&hl=%2Brule+%2Bfor+%2Bda+%2Bonly+%2Bin+%2Bproduction Yeah, that's it. Sorry I didn't see that one before starting this one. I get how explicitly saying no SA only guns can get some twisted around the axel because of guns like the XD. Actually I like IDPA's rule for SSP action type: DA first shot or striker fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 Alma If I was being a jerk I'm sorry. Besides I'm off for two weeks and don't want to get suspended right now! Everything I say gets the stink eye from my buds on the moderator team. Come on man...really still?Some lessons learned ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 (edited) Graham, could you point us to that wording in the current rule book? It's not there but I swear I remember almost exactly those words (double action or safe action). That's what I was trying to say in my brief post. I don't think I have any of the older rules books or PDF's so I can't go back and look to see when and or where it was. Maybe it was a part of the production list and not the rule book. Edited December 25, 2014 by Graham Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 As PatJones stated above both the Springfield XD and the S&W M&P are single action guns in that the pulling the trigger doesn't continue to preload the striker. There are a couple of more that the same thing could be argued about but those 2 are the most common. Any movement of the striker caused by pulling the trigger is incidental and not necessary for the gun to function. If you square up the striker lug and sear face eliminating or reducing any over cocking the pistol still functions as designed. The movement is the result of the sear design ala a low sear pivot point and not for the need for additional energy driving the striker.. The Glock uses a partially preloaded striker with the final preload delivered by actually pulling the trigger. If the additional preloading of the striker is not completed prior to the striker being released there is not enough energy to consistently pop the primer. This difference in design is why XD and M&P trigger can be made shorter/lighter/cleaner then a Glock trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 I think the point is if one were to submit paperwork to the DNROI for say a Springfield 1911 in 9mm, it would be denied but under what rule would he deny the request for inclusion? if allowed they would still have to start hammer down and that would suck so there probably wouldn't be a big rush to shoot them in production any way. I don't think they could. The rulebook defines the start position for single-action guns as: 8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged. But D4 states: Special conditions: — Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal, Since you can't meet the start condition for a SA gun and comply with the Production SC, it's no SA guns by inference. It would be nice to have a simple statement somewhere in the rulebook. That would be much easier for new shooters (those actually read the rulebook, anyway). They have various statements in the Production list that eliminate SA models, but only for some manufacturers: Beretta - (no single-action only variants or laser equipped models allowed) FN Herstal - DAO, DA/SA H&K - DAO DA/SA models only. SIG - No SAO (Single action only) versions are approved. Stoeger Industries - DA, DA/SA Taurus - All listed models must be DAO, DA/SA or with a decocker only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 JAFO, That's about the best explanation yet for the new guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Since I am bored how about this, I start my 1911 hammer down and cock after the start signal? Legal (putting the approved gun list aside)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Since I am bored how about this, I start my 1911 hammer down and cock after the start signal? Legal (putting the approved gun list aside)? It sounds legal, but it's not. All single action guns must be started as mentioned above, loaded, cocked, and safety on. The RO couldn't start you since the hammer was down on a single action gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Since I am bored how about this, I start my 1911 hammer down and cock after the start signal? Legal (putting the approved gun list aside)? Gary, short match -- see 10.5.11 and 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.4.... I'd have to disqualify you for making the attempt.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Well shucks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 And now it's time for someone to pipe up with "but that's a silly rule"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Per the rules, you couldn't even be started in Limited, L-10, or Open with your single action gun not cocked and locked. But, I think you could start hammer down in any of those if your gun was DA/SA...or cocked and locked, if the gun could do it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Well shucks! I can't tell you how much I'd hate it -- especially if you were the competitor...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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