One-Hit Neutralization For Major PF?

[StealthyBlagga]

This subject arose in a match-specific thread so I thought I would bring it over here.

Most versions of time-plus 3-Gun rules have at least one separate Heavy Metal/He Man division, with probably the majority of matches recognizing two: Heavy Metal Scope/Optic and Heavy Metal Limited/Iron. Unfortunately, equipment and ammo costs, along with the greater challenge of running the boomers, have conspired to keep HM participation at a subbornly low level pretty much since its inception. My guess would be that the number of participants who regularly shoot HM represent much less than 10% of all 3-gunners.

I do very much believe that our sport should continue to make the heavy hitters welcome, give them a competitive forum, and search for new ways to grow participation so that they can enjoy a meaningful competitive experience (a lot of times, our local match has only ONE person in HMS or HML - having no competition can feel lonely).

Over the years I have heard all kinds of ideas for improving HM participation. Allowing intermediate rifle cartridges (7.62x39, .300BO etc.) and .40S&W loaded to a reduced Major PF didn't work for us. Neither did allowing scopes (it just split the field of existing HM shooters). Some have simply kept HM as a single division, either scoring scopes and irons together, or prohibiting scopes entirely.

One idea that some have played with, and which could have an impact, is reducing the target neutralization requirements from "1 A/B or 2 hits" to "1 hit anywhere" for any rifle or pistol shooting Major power factor (for the sake of clarity, lets assume USPSA definitions). Concurrent with lowering this neutralization requirement, I would propose that we ELIMINATE all HM divisions, thus pushing the former-HMers into Open/Tactical Scope/Tactical Limited. I see no reason why folks could not "mix and match" guns according to their preferences (e.g. MINOR rifle, MAJOR pistol).

This change would do more than just reduce ammo consumption; it would also open the door for the use of accessories formerly prohibited in HM... mags loaded to full capacity for example. If the power factors were set appropriately, they could stimulate some cool new developments in intermediate rifle calibers too. Lots of interesting things could start to happen.

(For the moment, lets leave shotgun out of the discussion - the number of 20ga guns I see out there probably isn't very consequential either way.)

I know the above is not a completely new idea, but it has apparently failed to gain nationwide traction. What do people think? I'll add a poll just for fun.

DISCLAIMER: I am not speaking for SMM3G or any other match/organization... I am just interested in stimulating discussion and seeing if a consensus can develop. Maybe this discussion can lead to some experimental rule changes down the road.

Edited December 15, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[gunther]

In this hi-capacity game it only seems like the right direction to go for the heavy metal guys, to get the one-hit neutralisation.

Considering they're limited to 10rd pistol, 20rd rifle when everyone else is running 45+rifle mags/drums and 24rds in there pistols.

It just seems silly to shoot twice at a paper target 10 ft away with your federal match 168's

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[co-exprs]

I'm always torn between remaining pure to the intent of HeMan/Heavy Metal, and what would encourage growth in the division. I think allowing dots in many matches has been a good move without violating Eddie's vision. Single hit anywhere neutralization might encourage a few to try it, but I think that HM will continue to flounder because it simply isn't in harmony with the trends of the sport. It's the same reason why Single Stack and Revolver have never really taken off in USPSA. Those who shoot such divisions, do it because they love the unique challenges and the equipment. Altering the neutralization rule wouldn't change that.

Altering neutralization rules, would introduce another challenge though which would impact the whole for the sake of the 10%. It would introduce a variance in scoring which would make an already tough job for RO's even tougher.

[kellyn]

Single hit anywhere? Now that's encouraging good shooting. I'm ok with a major pf rifle (not pistol) neutralizing a target with an A, B or C hit as I think that reflects reality but certainly not D hits.

I think HM will always flounder as it's 1) harder 2) more expensive and 3) slower in an era where a la Ricky Bobby, we want to go fast. But in the end, I think its expense is what limits it.

I like the idea of experimenting with intermediate (i.e. sub 7.62 NATO) cartridges and also hate it. Why the hate? I don't like the idea that everyone will need to buy a 6.32X35.6 mm Remington/Hornady/Winchester super 3 gun round at $3 a pop. 5.56 is the standard service cartridge and it's cheap (relatively). The sport should be built around that.

[Stlhead]

I'm always torn between remaining pure to the intent of HeMan/Heavy Metal, and what would encourage growth in the division. I think allowing dots in many matches has been a good move without violating Eddie's vision. Single hit anywhere neutralization might encourage a few to try it, but I think that HM will continue to flounder because it simply isn't in harmony with the trends of the sport. It's the same reason why Single Stack and Revolver have never really taken off in USPSA. Those who shoot such divisions, do it because they love the unique challenges and the equipment. Altering the neutralization rule wouldn't change that.

Altering neutralization rules, would introduce another challenge though which would impact the whole for the sake of the 10%. It would introduce a variance in scoring which would make an already tough job for RO's even tougher.

I agree with much of what you wrote, but I disagree with the final statement that about the RO's. You are not giving the RO's enough credit, and in any case, the competitors do much of the scoring. If USPSA rods can figure hit factor, 3 gun RO's can count to 1.

Heavy is dead, it is time to face that fact and move on. If you want to keep the big guns in our sport (and the manufacturers that make heavy gear) then find a way to make the scoring neutral between the major power guns and the minor ones. The best efforts of UPSA have not been successful in pistol how could we expect the results in 3 gun to be different? The coin will not land on the edge, either major will offer an advantage or minor will, and that is what people will shoot.

I voted for the change, but not because I thought it would be successful, just because I thought it would be fun. In the best interest of our sport, I say we eliminate the heavy divisions except at separate matches, or matches that have historically been able to get enough shooters to fill those divisions. And when HM or HO was offered it should be the real deal.

[bikerburgess]

I Voted yes to Rifle and handgun but I think the handgun should be 45 for the one hit otherwise .40s get too much advantage, but the capacity on double stack 45's is low enough that I don't think it would be a huge advantage.

that said I really like the idea, ammo wise it would make the cost to shoot pretty close either way and that would make more people play with the big guns because they are fun.

[gunther]

Another point of view:

1 hit for rifle

2 hits for pistol, but allow 140mm mags

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[StealthyBlagga]

Good feedback. What about the following:

1) Eliminate current HMS and HML divisions. Move these shooters into Open/TS/TL according to their equipment and preferences. At major matches, these folks walk the Open/TS/TL prize table as appropriate.

2) Any Major PF gun in Open/TS/TL neutralizes paper targets with one hit (see my comment below). Otherwise, they compete on a level playing field with the Minor PF guns (same magazine capacity rules etc. - dust off those 140mm/drum mags).

3) For the folks who really want to stay true to Eddie's original vision, offer an additional category ranking/prize for folks who are running ORIGINAL He-Man equipment (.308 Rifle, .45ACP Single Stack 1911, 12ga pump ONLY). This would be akin to the LE/Junior/Lady categories. Otherwise score them within Tactical Limited per the above scoring scheme.

As for the question of whether a single "D" or "C" should be the threshold for neutralization, I am inclined to determine empirically which approach puts the heavy guns on true parity with the mouseguns (e.g. compare average placement of representative shooters with each gun using each scoring scheme).

I agree with the post above that ROs should have no problem applying this more nuanced scoring scheme, so long as the score sheets accurately record the correct Major/Minor information.

Clearly some experimentation will be required. After we have SMM3G behind us, perhaps we will do so in our local monthly matches. In the meantime, please keep the comments coming so I can refine my vision.

Edited December 15, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[Darqusoull13]

I would never eliminate heavy, it's simply too much fun for the people that shoot it. Yes, changing the scoring would probably give me a push to shoot HM now instead of later as the only thing keeping me out of HM division currently is the cost of ammo. Once I get out of grad school and start reloading that excuse goes away...and gives me an reason to get a new set of toys

[BigLucky]

I don't think it is power factor as much as .45 (the rules for our matches actually say .44 and bigger) and .308.

[StealthyBlagga]

I would never eliminate heavy, it's simply too much fun for the people that shoot it. Yes, changing the scoring would probably give me a push to shoot HM now instead of later as the only thing keeping me out of HM division currently is the cost of ammo. Once I get out of grad school and start reloading that excuse goes away...and gives me an reason to get a new set of toys

I wish reloading was the solution, but the $$$ saving is marginal at best

[BigLucky]

I would never eliminate heavy, it's simply too much fun for the people that shoot it. Yes, changing the scoring would probably give me a push to shoot HM now instead of later as the only thing keeping me out of HM division currently is the cost of ammo. Once I get out of grad school and start reloading that excuse goes away...and gives me an reason to get a new set of toys

I wish reloading was the solution, but the $$$ saving is marginal at best

Yeah, don't expect reloading to save you that much...

[StealthyBlagga]

I don't think it is power factor as much as .45 (the rules for our matches actually say .44 and bigger) and .308.

Yes, but in practice it takes a bigger cartridge and more recoil to push a rifle bullet to Major PF anyway... not gonna happen with a .223. I am thinking any new rule would also set a caliber threshold for safety (akin to the .40 vs. Major 9mm approach in USPSA Limited). I am trying not to get too down in the weeds on such questions until I get more feedback from the considerable experience base here.

[BigLucky]

I don't think it is power factor as much as .45 (the rules for our matches actually say .44 and bigger) and .308.

Yes, but in practice it takes a bigger cartridge and more recoil to push a rifle bullet to Major PF anyway... not gonna happen with a .223. I am thinking any new rule would also set a caliber threshold for safety (akin to the .40 vs. Major 9mm approach in USPSA Limited). I am trying not to get too down in the weeds on such questions until I get more feedback from the considerable experience base here.

I am most interested in not having to add a "chrono stage" to the match. I can't tell you the number of USPSA GM's I have seen shoot chrono's at matches.. LOL.

[StealthyBlagga]

I don't think it is power factor as much as .45 (the rules for our matches actually say .44 and bigger) and .308.

Yes, but in practice it takes a bigger cartridge and more recoil to push a rifle bullet to Major PF anyway... not gonna happen with a .223. I am thinking any new rule would also set a caliber threshold for safety (akin to the .40 vs. Major 9mm approach in USPSA Limited). I am trying not to get too down in the weeds on such questions until I get more feedback from the considerable experience base here.

I am most interested in not having to add a "chrono stage" to the match. I can't tell you the number of USPSA GM's I have seen shoot chrono's at matches.. LOL.

Honor System + Random Testing FTW

[co-exprs]

Test the podium finishers.

[MarkCO]

I did not vote, purely because I see the subject as pretty complex. I have run drills to test some of these theories. An intentional or accidental variance in course design can sway the scoring from advantageous to a disadvantage pretty easily.

From a "gamer" perspective, if I ran a .40 pistol and a 6.5PCC rifle, both making major, I would absolutely crush an equivalently skilled competitor shooting .45s and .308s...unless they we shooting powder puff loads, which a lot of heavy guys do. But then I see that as a barrier to entry for someone new to the game.

When you tinker with divisions, as USPSA has seen, it can really upset the balance and drive people to or from divisions. If there was no ruleset and I was asked to write a ruleset today without deletion of what I have seen and learned...

Open is Open with no restrictions at all (only CTC was truly Open is Open of the matches I have shot). Use a major PF rifle, special category pays out cash.

Limited is what we call Tac-Scope or Tac-Optics. Use a major PF rifle, special category pays out cash.

Stock is 8 rounds in pump SG, 30 round rifle mags and stock length pistol mags, 1x or irons on rifle. Use a major PF rifle, special category pays out cash.

If that was the "first" ruleset, not many people would complain and there are a lot of options with a lowered barrier to entry for new shooters.

Edited December 15, 2014 by MarkCO

[bikerburgess]

I like Mark's divisions, keeps it simple and adds a place for pumps and 223's to play together

[RJH]

I ran a garand this weekend in tac ops with the understanding that I would only have to put 1 on paper. This was at a local match so no really tough shots. Here are some thoughts.

1 If 1 on paper is allowed comps shouldn't be

2 to make it competitive heavy guns would need a mag capacity limit. (If I had had 15 rounds it wouldn't have been close on the rifle)

3 Pat Kelly posted here a while back about combined divisions (light/heavy) It was about right

4 Heavy is more fun with somebody to shoot against

5 while I didn't win my division it wasn't a blowout. (that was with a garand, pump, and a 1911 in 9mm that held 10 and did require 1a or 2anywhere.)

[RiggerJJ]

I ask this question every winter after a thread on this subject is started; why is it that the masses want to screw with the smallest division? And most of the vocal ones wanting to mess with HM don't even compete in it!

There is nothing in the rules now that prohibit shooting one round per target, just shoot As!

I have heard several former HM shooters "declare" that HM is dead. Really? I dont think so..I shot HM irons in several matches in 2014. Yea, participation was small, I guess most want the easy way out. 223 with massive mags, mouse loaded 9mm, shotguns with 16 round tubes to keep from having to (gasp!) load a shotgun!

The trend of 3gun is getting rather disgusting with all pistol berm stages, downloaded 9mm and 223 with 10 inch barrels, not having to load at all, burner stages that total 2-4 minutes over the course of a major match. Sorry, imho that is not 3gun.

If you want to compete in HM, step up and accept the challenge and requirements! 308 or 30.06, 45, and 12ga! Allowing intermediate cartridges and 1 round hits anywhere will bring on the gamers. They will shoot "major" and only shoot one round per target, further diluting 3gun, especially if the heavies are absorbed into TS, TI, and open. Remember the last couple of years USPSA Nats was major/minor? 223 necked up 30cal? That is NOT HM!

I for one do not want anything but 308/30.06 and 45 and 12ga in HM.

jmho...

jj

Eta: and to be clear, this "Tac Heavy" division that allows 9mm pistol is, in Eddie's words, WEAK!

Edited December 16, 2014 by RiggerJJ

[RiggerJJ]

And....
The original vision of HM was not only Eddie, but most of the original RM3G staff. I was not one of them, but I believe the major push was to scoped 308, ANY 45 pistol with 10 rounds, and a auto loading sg. It started in 2004 (or 05?), and the original HeMan division was iron sighted 308 or 30.06 with 20 rounds, ANY 45 with 10 rounds, and a pump 12 ga, 8+1.

Edited December 16, 2014 by RiggerJJ

[ericm]

JJ is correct: Eddie wanted .308's, 45's and 12GA....period. The 12GA pump thing was added to make it seem more "he-man" to ONE RM3G guy....and it stuck.

Eddie always chided us for that.

The first match to offer He-man was Kyle Lamb's NC Tactical match (correct name???) in the spring of 2004 (with RM3G blessing) and then RM3G in the fall of 2004.

......I think I remember ......and the only other 2 guys qualified to confirm or repudiate any of this is Kurt Miller and Jimmy Holdsworth.

ericm

[mr50mag]

Those scoring concessions for Heavy have been in play all year in the 3GN Regional and Club series with little participation in the Club side and never enough to recognize either heavy division in the Regionals.

I ran some ideas by PK and we came up with a very interesting way to have both Heavy divisions combined for score. Mechanical vs Capacity advantages.

We will also debut a new stock division as well as some PCC divisions for clubs that don't have permission for center fire rifle cartridges in their pistol ranges. New .22 divisions for the new and younger 3 gunners and updates on familiar divisions for the 3GN Nationals.

The new Regional rules will be completed and available in the next 2 weeks.

Rob

[StealthyBlagga]

JJ: I think the reason people keep wanting to mess with the HM divisions is because they are so unpopular... when something does not sell well, it implies that improvements can be made. It is the American Way .

It is interesting to hear that Eddie's original vision for He-Man was what we would now call Heavy Metal Scope, and that the irons/pump/1911-only ideas came from other, lesser mortals.

Back in the days when He-Man (in my locale) meant irons and a pump 12ga, I recall the main justification for creating the HMS/HML differentiation was the assertion that old guys could not shoot a rifle with irons, and that allowing scopes would increase participation. In hindsight, it really has not - all we did was split ONE unpopular division into TWO even more unpopular divisions.

Given the historical perspective, would there be support amongst existing HMers for reconstituting the two divisions back into one, broadly under current HMS rules (scope OK, semi-shotgun OK etc.)?

Edited December 16, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[Benelli Chick]

Those scoring concessions for Heavy have been in play all year in the 3GN Regional and Club series with little participation in the Club side and never enough to recognize either heavy division in the Regionals.

I ran some ideas by PK and we came up with a very interesting way to have both Heavy divisions combined for score. Mechanical vs Capacity advantages.

We will also debut a new stock division as well as some PCC divisions for clubs that don't have permission for center fire rifle cartridges in their pistol ranges. New .22 divisions for the new and younger 3 gunners and updates on familiar divisions for the 3GN Nationals.

The new Regional rules will be completed and available in the next 2 weeks.

Rob

Patrick's idea made both JJ and I think. We asked some guys that shoot He-Man with us and it didn't play so well.

It's just my opinion, but I think that the reason people want to change it, is they like one of the guns andor DISLIKE one of the guns in He-Man, but they see the He-Men having so much fun, and looking, well...MANLY (Note the beautiful and womanly look of all the He-Man lady shooters) and are jealous and want to get in on the fun without working too hard.

RM3G and He-Man Nationals are the strictest of the He-Men, making both shoot pump, and we have the most He-Man shooters and the most He-Women shooters We had 4 He-Men women this year at RM3G Worlds which was 15 HARD stages!!!

If you think it looks like fun, shoot the match in Heavy that caters to your likes and dislikes the most! You guys spend so much on your guns and then, .308 is so expensive, let's shoot less bullets???? If you really want to conserve, hit an A and every target on the first shot! CHEAP!!! I thought you came shooting to shoot!

If you like the big guns, shoot them! JJ shot Gen 3 in Heavy Scope with Heavy Iron gear because there were not enough shooters and won!

I know it's all about the prize table, winning, and fame and fortune!!! But, just shoot the division you want! If you like heavy, talk some friends into shooting with you! Dare them! Threaten them, whatever! If not, shoot Heavy gear in Tac Scope or Tac-Iron whichever fits better, and know you're at a disadvantage, but have FUN!!!! I thought that's what 3-Gun was all about!

I know, I know! Let's all shoot the exact same guns, on repeat stages in the exact same way, then we'll really know who's good!!! (THAT WAS SARCASM!!!!)

Just a small rant,

Denise

Edited December 16, 2014 by Benelli Chick