Shooting Waivers

[Paul B]

Virtually all clubs have shooting waivers that we all sign to shoot the match - often without reading them.

Most of the time they just make us responsible for our own injuries or injuries we cause directly.

I just looked at one, though, from a major match that goes pretty far. It asks the competitor to "hold the range harmless" for any accidents etc. that arise directly from the competitors actions or "indirectly." Since "indirectly" can have various meanings, it will end up being a call in court whether just attendance at the match would mean you are "indirectly" involved. This means that in the unlikely event that someone else lets a round go out of the range or the ranges berms are too low you can end up paying for and even defending not only yourself, but the range itself for what they may be liable to pay in the event of an injury. While a homeowners policy would probably respond, it may be real hard to get a renewal from just about any carrier.

Even though I review these kind of agreements every day, I'll admit to being cavalier in how I've signed them at matches in the past. Maybe we should all take a look at what we are signing. If you contractually give away too much, the match may not be worth shooting.

[davidwiz]

Most of them are not enforceable. There are very few states that allow a party waive negligence as a cause of action. I generally don't even sign them, or sign some made-up name.

[Paul B]

I like your idea of signing another name. Most of the places this comes up that would probably work, but the agreement I saw was pretty specific with initials needed next to each provision and signature, printed name, etc.

I realize many states won't allow an entity to contract away sole fault, but there are still some that do and there is still joint liability. I've always thought the ones I saw were unenforceable also till this one.

Might not be germaine anyway if something bad happens like the death at a Dallas club several years back. I know the club paid, USPSA paid and each competitor at the match paid. The competitors paid over $1000 apiece. I don't think they had any waiver.

I'd just hate to be in a catfight where I also agreed to pick up the clubs share, so I'm going to read them a little more carefully.

[GRD]

I generally don't even sign them, or sign some made-up name.

Don't sign ours and you don't get to shoot. Sign a made-up name and we'd likely see to it you never did.

- Gabe

[John Dunn]

Darn lawyers griping about waivers another lawyer probably wrote to begin with! Let's worry about shooting, not whether we can file a class action lawsuit if some calamity befalls us!

I love the ITRC waiver, it lists some potential dangers such as rattlesnakes, bears, etc., it's cool.

[Ron Ankeny]

I live in Wyoming where waivers don't even do a decent job of making the waters muddy. Our club doesn't even bother with a waiver. We are a Limited Liability Corporation and we have a couple of million in liability insurance. We do our best to act responsibly and we expect the same from the competitors. Our biggest fault is we aren't hard core enough about DQable offenses and that has to change.

[JFlowers]

When I was running the non-USPSA 3 Gun match at WGGC, I talked to a lawyer friend about this. He helped me write a fairly reasonable waiver. While state law gives the waiver no real power, his advice was that should anything ever happen the signed waiver could be used to prove that the injured competitor knew and accepted a certain amount of risk. While it did not waive the club's responsibility, it could possibly reduce the amount of liability the club had.

As to dealing with clubs that force you to sign a waiver that you feel is unreasonable, I guess the best thing is to vote with your feet.

[cking]

Waiver should contain a clause that the shooter understands the risks involved, and if any section of the waiver is declared void it does not cancel all articles of the waiver and get a Limited Liabity Corp paperwork and at least 2 million insurance. Pass out written safety rules to all new shooters. Post safety rules at every match and provide safe tables well labeled. You will still get sued even if it is because they slipped on a wet floor in the bathroom and fell on there gun and hurt there butt!

[diehli]

And here I thought we were talking about executing people that try to distract you while you're doing something important....

[shred]

Btw, intentionally bypassing or mis-signing a waiver in order to get access to what signing the waiver allows you to is tantamount to agreeing to it anyway.

So said our lawyers when I wrote a "press the Z-key to accept your license agreement"-type program (you might recognize it, it's on tens of millions of PCs). I said it could be bypassed by a clever person. They said "it doesn't matter.. intentionally circumventing it is the same as agreeing".

[rhino]

I don't recall ever sigining one, except maybe at Gunruner's club for his 3-gun matches. As davidwiz mentioned, they're generally not enforceable (for a variety of reasons), but I've yet to see one with anything too onerous for me to sign.

I don't see that they do anything "good" other than make people feel better (who should know they are essentially worthless). I suppose some attorneys like them because it will discourage a sizeable percentage people from filing suits because they believe they have waived their right to do so.

[blue edge]

rhino, dont you sign one at SOUTH CENTRAL??

[Scooter]

I worked at a bike & ski shop in college. We had a meeting on what to do with the waivers especially on rentals. Basically the waivers mean absolutely nothing in court. The only thing it does is discourage people from suing you. But if they wanted to, you will be going to court.

[rhino]

rhino, dont you sign one at SOUTH CENTRAL??

I don't remember it if I did!

I thought it was just a sign-in sheet!

[davidwiz]

Even if your jurisdiction allows liability waivers (meaning, that they are not against public policy), they can still be attacked/challenged like any other purported contract. The fact that a liability waiver is forced upon a person, with no opportunity for modification or bargaining of the terms of the waiver, makes the waiver much more susceptible to a successful challenge.

And, there is nothing to prevent a person from modifing/crossing-out/changing terms on the waiver and initialing those changes.

[shred]

Even if your jurisdiction allows liability waivers (meaning, that they are not against public policy), they can still be attacked/challenged like any other purported contract. The fact that a liability waiver is forced upon a person, with no opportunity for modification or bargaining of the terms of the waiver, makes the waiver much more susceptible to a successful challenge.

How's that? You're free to not-shoot if you don't like the terms.

And, there is nothing to prevent a person from modifing/crossing-out/changing terms on the waiver and initialing those changes.

You can cross out all you want, but it likely won't mean squat legally unless the other party explicitly in writing agrees to your changes.

Signing somebody else's name to a check does not give you the right to free stuff.

[IPSCDRL]

Signing somebody else's name to a check does not give you the right to free stuff.

Damn! There goes the financing for my new gun......