teros135 Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 We already have ways of creating smaller, more challenging targets; we can occlude part or all of a full-size target using no-shoots and/or hard cover. The smaller targets do not truly simulate distance anyway, as it is still easier to make hits with imperfect sight alignment/trigger control on small/close targets than large/distant targets. <snip> I would also prefer to restrict the ratio of reduced-size:full-size targets so that we don't see whole stages built with the smaller targets. Being cheaper and easier to set up, I am concerned that some MDs will be sorely tempted to over-use them. I would agree. We already have a variety of challenges, including "partials", although the A-zone of the minis seems smaller than that of normal targets. What's the deal with "all Mini Targets are placed at least 2 metres further rearwards of the most distant full size Target in that course of fire" ? That might be (1) to discourage using too many of them and (2) to encourage their intended use, which is to simulate distant targets that the bay can't support (e.g., 40-yd target in a 20-yd deep bay). If you do the trig, I believe the relative sizes of the target and the various zones are proportionately smaller. It's pretty much the same thing as a "minute of angle" being 1.047" at 100 yds, twice that at 200, three times that at 300, etc. Basically an ever-widening cone. I've placed a mini target at 25 yds and a regular target at 50. The visual size is just about the same, and A zone seems pretty much the same as the 50 yd target (small!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 The real reason is so that they won't look like children, when placed next to the full size targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 The real reason is so that they won't look like children, when placed next to the full size targets. So the full size target holding a mini no-shoot is a no-go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) The real reason is so that they won't look like children, when placed next to the full size targets. So the full size target holding a mini no-shoot is a no-go? Hmmm. You can't mix Classic and Metric targets together in a stage (4.2.1), so you couldn't have a Classic no-shoot on a Metric target, or vice versa. It will probably be the same for the minis. Now, you could probably have a Zombie (prop) holding two Minis... (How intimidating would a metric no-shoot covering half of a mini be? Forgot - there's no no-shoot, just the paper...) Edited January 3, 2015 by teros135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Been silent on this for a long time. WHY NOT? Why shouldn't ALL of our available targets be legal and any stage? Put Stop-signs, Metrics, Minis, Mini Poppers and Pepper Poppers and Square and round plates, classic poppers, mini classic poppers and Colt speed plates all out there on one stage. Allow any target to be designated a No-Shoot simply by shape. We could make this exciting again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGS Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 The real reason is so that they won't look like children, when placed next to the full size targets. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Been silent on this for a long time. WHY NOT? Why shouldn't ALL of our available targets be legal and any stage? Put Stop-signs, Metrics, Minis, Mini Poppers and Pepper Poppers and Square and round plates, classic poppers, mini classic poppers and Colt speed plates all out there on one stage. Allow any target to be designated a No-Shoot simply by shape. We could make this exciting again. I'd shoot that match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Been silent on this for a long time. WHY NOT? Why shouldn't ALL of our available targets be legal and any stage? Put Stop-signs, Metrics, Minis, Mini Poppers and Pepper Poppers and Square and round plates, classic poppers, mini classic poppers and Colt speed plates all out there on one stage. Allow any target to be designated a No-Shoot simply by shape. We could make this exciting again. Do you think it's not exciting *now*? (Isn't this the best Straw Man argument ever?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skizeks Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Indoor and 3Gun is where we use them most. I doubt I would use them much for regular USPSA pistol matches. As i read this I had to start laughing. any good stage designer I know will eat these up!! careful what U ask for1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) Why shouldn't ALL of our available targets be legal and any stage? ...<snip>.... Allow any target to be designated a No-Shoot simply by shape. I agree with everything except the last line. The difference between a target and a no-shoot is the color not the shape. I'd like to be able to make no-shoots any size or shape I wanted. As to the mini's in general, I would really like to be able to use smaller targets up close and larger ones further back. It can add some much needed variety to stages where there are design restrictions. Now, the practical side of that is we would need different target stands for these. That creates a whole different problem. Edited January 24, 2015 by Graham Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 As to the mini's in general, I would really like to be able to use smaller targets up close and larger ones further back. It can add some much needed variety to stages where there are design restrictions. Now, the practical side of that is we would need different target stands for these. That creates a whole different problem. At an angle, horizontal or with a regulation target / piece I'd cardboard blacked out as hard cover supporting it, horizontal stick in H position with regulation stand If there is a will, there is a way..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimo-Hombre Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I don't understand, why not just use the targets we have now with hardcover or no shoots to make the shot more difficult? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I don't understand, why not just use the targets we have now with hardcover or no shoots to make the shot more difficult? Because it sucks spray painting 80% of a full size target when you can just use a mini. Beyond that, indoor ranges and smaller bays can benefit from target alignment to allow for different layouts/presentations etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I don't understand, why not just use the targets we have now with hardcover or no shoots to make the shot more difficult? Having a scaled down target gives a completely different visual image. It looks just like a regular target at distance. There is no way to simulate this with blackout. And for ranges with a limited size, this can really add a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Have any of you guys placed an order yet for reduced size targets? Just wondering which ones you went with (even though USPSA HQ is still hashing out dimensions and all that)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Having a scaled down target gives a completely different visual image. It looks just like a regular target at distance. I don't actually find this to be true. Even if the effective size seems to be the same, the amount of visual focus difference between a target far away and a target that is nearby makes a significant difference when aiming. At least for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted January 27, 2015 Author Share Posted January 27, 2015 Have any of you guys placed an order yet for reduced size targets? Just wondering which ones you went with (even though USPSA HQ is still hashing out dimensions and all that)? We use these for 3-gun and I have used them for a USPSA match already... http://www.c-mtargets.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) Having a scaled down target gives a completely different visual image. It looks just like a regular target at distance. I don't actually find this to be true. Even if the effective size seems to be the same, the amount of visual focus difference between a target far away and a target that is nearby makes a significant difference when aiming. At least for me. I was being a bit simplistic and my eyes aren't as good as they used to be. So you are probably more correct for more people than I was. But I do find that, for me, closer smaller targets require as much aiming attention as further larger targets unless I want some poor hits. So, from that point of view, they are very similar. Edited January 28, 2015 by Graham Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Have any of you guys placed an order yet for reduced size targets? Just wondering which ones you went with (even though USPSA HQ is still hashing out dimensions and all that)? We use these for 3-gun and I have used them for a USPSA match already... http://www.c-mtargets.com/index.html Thank you, sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziebart Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 The only issue is just like hardcover targets they will need to be replaced more often as the perf becomes obscured with tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimo-Hombre Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I don't understand, why not just use the targets we have now with hardcover or no shoots to make the shot more difficult? Having a scaled down target gives a completely different visual image. It looks just like a regular target at distance. There is no way to simulate this with blackout. And for ranges with a limited size, this can really add a lot. I shot an indoor USPSA match for the first time last night so I have a new appreciation for what you are talking about. But that said if mini targets are approved then they start showing up at regular matches? That would be lame. I still say just use no shoots to tighten up the shots. But hey my opinion means zero, so have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashDodson Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 (edited) 4.2.1.1 Half-sized targets of either type are approved for use at Level I matches only and may be used together with full-size targets of same type on a course of fire. No portion of half-sized targets may be covered with hard cover or no-shoots; they must be presented as full targets. The opposite side may be used as a no-shoot target, as with full-sized targets, but they may only be used as free-standing no-shoots, and any half-sized target visually blocked in such a manner must be fully visible at some other point in the course of fire. Half-sized targets may not be mounted onto full-sized no-shoot targets or used as no-shoots on full-sized scoring targets. Restrictions on angle of placement still apply for IPSC targets. Edited January 3, 2019 by CrashDodson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClangClang Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 57 minutes ago, CrashDodson said: 4.2.1.1 Half-sized targets of either type are approved for use at Level I matches only and may be used together with full-size targets of same type on a course of fire. No portion of half-sized targets may be covered with hard cover or no-shoots; they must be presented as full targets. The opposite side may be used as a no-shoot target, as with full-sized targets, but they may only be used as free-standing no-shoots, and any half-sized target visually blocked in such a manner must be fully visible at some other point in the course of fire. Half-sized targets may not be mounted onto full-sized no-shoot targets or used as no-shoots on full-sized scoring targets. Restrictions on angle of placement still apply for IPSC targets. Why did you resurrect this 3 year old post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMBOpen Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 5 minutes ago, ClangClang said: Why did you resurrect this 3 year old post? 2019 Rules just published. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashDodson Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 2 hours ago, ClangClang said: Why did you resurrect this 3 year old post? Because I know how to use the search tool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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