Is a "Range Member Only" USPSA match legal?

[frag316]

You know what? Your high-handed moralizing is pathetic. If you're such an expert on getting a range to work closer with the USPSA club that shoots on it, I'll pay to fly you out here and you can fix it for us.

If you're so hard over on this, then get in touch with the BoD and tell on us.

Have you ever allowed non-USPSA members to shoot a match? If so, you're violating a rule and should not be advertising that you're hosting a valid USPSA match.

6.4.1 All competitors must be individual members of USPSA, or a current member of their IPSC region, for Level II and above competitions. A competitor who submits a paid USPSA membership application to the Match Director or presents proof of online registration and payment as a new member prior to entering the competition is considered a member for the purpose of this rule.

Anything else and you're just trolling for an argument because you're bored on a Tuesday.

(And it's "cite," by the way. You "cite" a rule, and you "site" a building. I would think that someone with experience in "multi-million dollar court cases" would know the difference.)

The "first principle" really only addresses not barring people from the categories in 6.4.3.

6.4.3 No person may be barred from participating in a USPSA match based on gender, race, religion or occupation.

[bkeeler]

moved

Edited October 28, 2014 by bkeeler

[racegun9]

We charge everyone the same price, members and non-members. Just easier for me to abide by the rules I guess.

Sure, we give a discount for working (set-up, stage design, etc.)

That's great you have your club set-up that way and is a great model if all could be like that.

But, there are lots of clubs that charge more for non club members either in a per match basis

Or a one time fee. Are you saying all these clubs are not following the rules?

I'm saying I don't see a fee structure set up in the rules.

All I can find is "open to all members" doesn't say anything about at what cost.

You claim it's Clinton speak, if anyone sees something other than your view.

I see a one sentence line in the affiliation packet that is not very cut and dried.

Yet, several are already sure the clubs should be culled from Uspsa

[MarkCO]

You know what? Your high-handed moralizing is pathetic. If you're such an expert on getting a range to work closer with the USPSA club that shoots on it, I'll pay to fly you out here and you can fix it for us.

If you're so hard over on this, then get in touch with the BoD and tell on us.

Have you ever allowed non-USPSA members to shoot a match? If so, you're violating a rule and should not be advertising that you're hosting a valid USPSA match.

6.4.1 All competitors must be individual members of USPSA, or a current member of their IPSC region, for Level II and above competitions. A competitor who submits a paid USPSA membership application to the Match Director or presents proof of online registration and payment as a new member prior to entering the competition is considered a member for the purpose of this rule.

Anything else and you're just trolling for an argument because you're bored on a Tuesday.

(And it's "cite," by the way. You "cite" a rule, and you "site" a building. I would think that someone with experience in "multi-million dollar court cases" would know the difference.)

The "first principle" really only addresses not barring people from the categories in 6.4.3.

6.4.3 No person may be barred from participating in a USPSA match based on gender, race, religion or occupation.

I will get you some free calendar days so you can buy me a plane ticket.

Yes, when I run the LII or higher matches, we make those with an expired, or no USPSA number give us a check for $25 made out to USPSA and send them in.

Oops, sorry for the typo, auto-correct is so bad, but it is not my fault (sarcasm BTW).

Edited October 28, 2014 by MarkCO

[bkeeler]

Do you all check weight of singlestack guns,production guns, mag lengths, check distance of gun and mags from the inner belt? If not your not following the rules.

Grasping for straws again? Care to site the "rule". It says "should" not must, but no matter, I check anyway when I am the RM and I frequently make people move gear. I made 2 shooters get new holsters the last match I was the RM.

But that is a weak strawman argument at best. I will tell you what I tell my kids...just because someone else does something wrong has no bearing on your integrity and does not give you a pass to do something wrong. The American way has become...do what you want and blame someone else or use their actions in attempt to justify your wrong. Sorry, that argument will never work with me, but you will fit right in at most public schools.

Your stance is clear, so is mine. Since you refuse potential solutions, I will cease the dialog with you on this topic. I hope you have a great day and I wish your club luck in future.

Thanks MarkCo! But black and white! Where does it say the gun "should" weigh ??? the holster "should" be? the mags "should" be XX length? Appendix D1.D2,D3,D4,D5,D6.... Do you use the box for production and SS? Says "must" fit in the box.... if it is not being checked your not following the rules! So every local club that holds USPSA matches should be thrown out of USPSA???

[MarkCO]

bkeeler, on 28 Oct 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

Do you all check weight of singlestack guns,production guns, mag lengths, check distance of gun and mags from the inner belt? If not your not following the rules.

6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire.

Equipment checks are to be performed at Chrono.

Edited October 28, 2014 by MarkCO

[bkeeler]

bkeeler, on 28 Oct 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

Do you all check weight of singlestack guns,production guns, mag lengths, check distance of gun and mags from the inner belt? If not your not following the rules.

6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire.

Equipment checks are to be performed at Chrono.

Ah yes the Chrono! Anyone???? So if we have the rules about equipment placement,weight, etc because of the word "should" we really don't have those rules???

Edited October 28, 2014 by bkeeler

[2MoreChains]

So for clubs that have the 'must-be-a-club-member-to-shoot' policy, what happens when you host a section or state match or higher?

[Sarge]

Do you all check weight of singlestack guns,production guns, mag lengths, check distance of gun and mags from the inner belt? If not your not following the rules.

Grasping for straws again? Care to site the "rule". It says "should" not must, but no matter, I check anyway when I am the RM and I frequently make people move gear. I made 2 shooters get new holsters the last match I was the RM.

But that is a weak strawman argument at best. I will tell you what I tell my kids...just because someone else does something wrong has no bearing on your integrity and does not give you a pass to do something wrong. The American way has become...do what you want and blame someone else or use their actions in attempt to justify your wrong. Sorry, that argument will never work with me, but you will fit right in at most public schools.

Your stance is clear, so is mine. Since you refuse potential solutions, I will cease the dialog with you on this topic. I hope you have a great day and I wish your club luck in future.

Thanks MarkCo! But black and white! Where does it say the gun "should" weigh ??? the holster "should" be? the mags "should" be XX length? Appendix D1.D2,D3,D4,D5,D6.... Do you use the box for production and SS? Says "must" fit in the box.... if it is not being checked your not following the rules! So every local club that holds USPSA matches should be thrown out of USPSA???

Of course not! Just the clubs that prohibit card carrying members of USPSA to shoot their Uspsa sanctioned matches.

[remoandiris]

Of course not! Just the clubs that prohibit card carrying members of USPSA to shoot their Uspsa sanctioned matches.

They don't prohibit. They "cost prohibit". $250.00 match fee and what not.

[bkeeler]

Do you all check weight of singlestack guns,production guns, mag lengths, check distance of gun and mags from the inner belt? If not your not following the rules.

Grasping for straws again? Care to site the "rule". It says "should" not must, but no matter, I check anyway when I am the RM and I frequently make people move gear. I made 2 shooters get new holsters the last match I was the RM.

But that is a weak strawman argument at best. I will tell you what I tell my kids...just because someone else does something wrong has no bearing on your integrity and does not give you a pass to do something wrong. The American way has become...do what you want and blame someone else or use their actions in attempt to justify your wrong. Sorry, that argument will never work with me, but you will fit right in at most public schools.

Your stance is clear, so is mine. Since you refuse potential solutions, I will cease the dialog with you on this topic. I hope you have a great day and I wish your club luck in future.

Thanks MarkCo! But black and white! Where does it say the gun "should" weigh ??? the holster "should" be? the mags "should" be XX length? Appendix D1.D2,D3,D4,D5,D6.... Do you use the box for production and SS? Says "must" fit in the box.... if it is not being checked your not following the rules! So every local club that holds USPSA matches should be thrown out of USPSA???

Of course not! Just the clubs that prohibit card carrying members of USPSA to shoot their Uspsa sanctioned matches.

We don't prohibit card carrying members of USPSA to shoot our sanctioned USPSA matches it just cost a non-member of our club more to shoot it. Popcorn anyone.

[racegun9]

So for clubs that have the 'must-be-a-club-member-to-shoot' policy, what happens when you host a section or state match or higher?

Several ways I know of.

1.Part of your match fee buys you a membership.

2.You could be considered a guest for the day.

3. Some clubs have an open house or membership drive for the weekend once a year.

I assume there are others like a daily or match only range membership.

Depends on the clubs by laws.

[remoandiris]

Depends on the clubs by laws.

Or a vote by the club's board or members if the bylaws are silent on the issue.

[2MoreChains]

So for clubs that have the 'must-be-a-club-member-to-shoot' policy, what happens when you host a section or state match or higher?

Several ways I know of.

1.Part of your match fee buys you a membership.

2.You could be considered a guest for the day.

3. Some clubs have an open house or membership drive for the weekend once a year.

I assume there are others like a daily or match only range membership.

Depends on the clubs by laws.

Fair enough. At my club the difference in L1 match fees for a non-club member is a lousy $5 ($15 for non-club members, $10 for club members). Seems reasonable, or at least I haven't heard any complaints from the non-members and our mix of club vs non-club is about 50-50 at our twice a month matches. We do offer a reduced match fee of $5 for juniors or students to help those kids out.

I'm not about to tell another club how to run their matches (anymore than I want somebody to tell me how to run mine), but seems like your #1 could get excessive depending on how much a non-member has to pay. Guess people will vote with their wallets.

[bkeeler]

Of course not! Just the clubs that prohibit card carrying members of USPSA to shoot their Uspsa sanctioned matches.

They don't prohibit. They "cost prohibit". $250.00 match fee and what not.

Yeah just like the Nationals are "cost prohibit" $250.00 match fee + plane ticket+car rental+hotel+ meals. But in order for me to shoot the Nationals that is what it cost!

[2MoreChains]

I worked this year's Nats and shot the pre-match. I spent maybe $50 out of my own pocket. My cost in gas was covered, hotel was free, brkfast was free at the hotel, lunch was on the match, dinner was per diem. OK, so I had to take an entire week off and be gone from home Sunday thru the following Monday. But it wasn't cost prohibitive for me to shoot Nats (this year).

[racegun9]

So for clubs that have the 'must-be-a-club-member-to-shoot' policy, what happens when you host a section or state match or higher?

Several ways I know of.

1.Part of your match fee buys you a membership.

2.You could be considered a guest for the day.

3. Some clubs have an open house or membership drive for the weekend once a year.

I assume there are others like a daily or match only range membership.

Depends on the clubs by laws.

Fair enough. At my club the difference in L1 match fees for a non-club member is a lousy $5 ($15 for non-club members, $10 for club members). Seems reasonable, or at least I haven't heard any complaints from the non-members and our mix of club vs non-club is about 50-50 at our twice a month matches. We do offer a reduced match fee of $5 for juniors or students to help those kids out.

I'm not about to tell another club how to run their matches (anymore than I want somebody to tell me how to run mine), but seems like your #1 could get excessive depending on how much a non-member has to pay. Guess people will vote with their wallets.

We need to check with marcco and sarge on this because I'm not clear on their stance if it's ok with the rules to take 5 or 10 dollars extra every match compared with a one time lump payment. This is a little tongue in cheek marcco & sarge but I don't think you have answered this specific situation that happens all over the country. Is this club within the rules as you see it?

[2MoreChains]

So for clubs that have the 'must-be-a-club-member-to-shoot' policy, what happens when you host a section or state match or higher?

Several ways I know of.

1.Part of your match fee buys you a membership.

2.You could be considered a guest for the day.

3. Some clubs have an open house or membership drive for the weekend once a year.

I assume there are others like a daily or match only range membership.

Depends on the clubs by laws.

Fair enough. At my club the difference in L1 match fees for a non-club member is a lousy $5 ($15 for non-club members, $10 for club members). Seems reasonable, or at least I haven't heard any complaints from the non-members and our mix of club vs non-club is about 50-50 at our twice a month matches. We do offer a reduced match fee of $5 for juniors or students to help those kids out.

I'm not about to tell another club how to run their matches (anymore than I want somebody to tell me how to run mine), but seems like your #1 could get excessive depending on how much a non-member has to pay. Guess people will vote with their wallets.

We need to check with marcco and sarge on this because I'm not clear on their stance if it's ok with the rules to take 5 or 10 dollars extra every match compared with a one time lump payment. This is a little tongue in cheek marcco & sarge but I don't think you have answered this specific situation that happens all over the country. Is this club within the rules as you see it?

Its OK, I see the humor in it. But I think you and I both know the answer to that one, just like some of us are scratching our head over barring a non-club member from shooting a USPSA match or at least having difficulty reconciling how that is supported by the rulebook. Yeah, I get it, not all gun clubs look upon our sport as favorably as we would like them to and changing some club BoDs is a tough row to hoe.

That said, a club can do as a club wants, but I think your annual affiliation says you agree to abide by a certain way.

[bkeeler]

The last 10 months we have averaged 52 shooters at our USPSA matches and those numbers are growing. I have been shooting at this club since I started in USPSA in 2007. At that time the MO section coordinator was a member of our club and ran the matches with the help of some others. It has been this way long before I started in this game at our club. A lot of our local shooters use the club for other shooting activities. Skeet,trap,5 stand,cowboy action,rifle ranges,archery range etc. we have tried to get it changed but with the BOD and the bylaws we haven't been able to make it happen. It has been this way for maybe 15+ years. Our shooters don't seem to mind I guess because it gives them a place to practice too. Is it right? Maybe not. Is it against the USPSA affiliation agreement? I personally don't think so but I am not a lawyer. I enjoy shooting at this club and have put in a lot of time to help run USPSA matches for everyone to enjoy and have fun. So if they want to shut it down to be honest I need a break from putting on matches it's no picnic anyway.

[remoandiris]

Of course not! Just the clubs that prohibit card carrying members of USPSA to shoot their Uspsa sanctioned matches.

They don't prohibit. They "cost prohibit". $250.00 match fee and what not.

Yeah just like the Nationals are "cost prohibit" $250.00 match fee + plane ticket+car rental+hotel+ meals. But in order for me to shoot the Nationals that is what it cost!

Yep, and members of the Nationals host range pay the same match fee as non-members. See the difference yet?

[bkeeler]

Yep, and members of the Nationals host range pay the same match fee as non-members. See the difference yet?

I get what you guys are saying. But none of you seem to see that the affiliation agreement doesn't say anything about what price a non member of an affiliated club has to pay to shoot a sanctioned USPSA match. Is it right? Maybe not. Is it against the affiliation agreement? Not in my opinion. We are not turning any USPSA member away and saying you can not shoot. Like I said in my post above, it has been this way since I started shooting USPSA in 2007. This club was having USPSA matches long before I started. Is it right for any club to charge more for a non member to shot a USPSA match? Is there a difference in chargeing a non member $10.00 more each match vs $110.00 match fee (which covers your membership for the club) for your first match and only $5.00 for each match for the year after that?The club is not owned by USPSA. Therefore I don't think USPSA can dictate what will be charged for a USPSA match. Unfortunately for us to run USPSA sanctioned matches at our club this is how it has to be done according to our bylaws of the members club and to fulfill the USPSA a affiliation.

[Sarge]

The last 10 months we have averaged 52 shooters at our USPSA matches and those numbers are growing. I have been shooting at this club since I started in USPSA in 2007. At that time the MO section coordinator was a member of our club and ran the matches with the help of some others. It has been this way long before I started in this game at our club. A lot of our local shooters use the club for other shooting activities. Skeet,trap,5 stand,cowboy action,rifle ranges,archery range etc. we have tried to get it changed but with the BOD and the bylaws we haven't been able to make it happen. It has been this way for maybe 15+ years. Our shooters don't seem to mind I guess because it gives them a place to practice too. Is it right? Maybe not. Is it against the USPSA affiliation agreement? I personally don't think so but I am not a lawyer. I enjoy shooting at this club and have put in a lot of time to help run USPSA matches for everyone to enjoy and have fun. So if they want to shut it down to be honest I need a break from putting on matches it's no picnic anyway.

Chances are high I will never shoot at your club because it's in MO somewhere. But what if I took a vacation and thought I would take my gear and shoot a few matches at different clubs. I should, the way I understand the sanctioning agreement, be able to shoot any sanctioned USPSA match anywhere in the country. And no I would NOT pay to join a club that is a thousand miles from me just for the privilege of shooting a match I should be entitled to shoot as a member in good standing in USPSA.

And, are you guys the only place to shoot for miles around? I have maybe 6 matches within a few hours drive of me. None of them require club membership to shoot their SANCTIONED matches. It would be crazy to expect the 50 or so of us regular local circuit shooters to join every club just to be able to shoot matches. That would be crazy expensive and highly impractical. I know for a fact if one of those six clubs were a members only club they would die as far as USPSA is concerned.

Is your club listed under the club finder feature of uspsa.org? Does it clearly say on the uspsa website that you don't allow non members to shoot? If it doesn't, it should. If it does, uspsa HQ should be inquiring why.

We get on average 55 shooters a month at my club. It is a 503 whatever club. They don't want to make money. They want to promote shooting. My match report has to show how many club members vs non club members shoot my matches. From what I understand, keeping track of those stats has something to do with maintaining 503 status? Not sure how all of that works.

I also have to compile results at the end of the season to determine club champions. These are club members only obviously and don't always finish near the top of the standings in the overall results. I think our stats are along the lines of only 25% of the shooters in my matches are club members. The majority of shooters at most all of the local matches around here are not members of the clubs they shoot at.

The wait list is 18 months to get into my club. There are no special ways to get to the front of the line here. You could shoot every rifle match, pistol match etc all year and it means nothing as far as membership in the club is concerned.

I had no idea there were clubs out there that held more or less major shooting sports events that were only available to club members.

[Sarge]

The club is not owned by USPSA. Therefore I don't think USPSA can dictate what will be charged for a USPSA match.

That's not really the point or the bone of contention. The point is that USPSA can dictate terms to a private club if they want to hold sanctioned matches. Somebody at sometime in that club signed and agreed to those terms. And all they really require is that you abide by uspsa rules and get approval for any deviation. AND that you allow any uspsa member to shoot a match.

Using double speak to say you are not denying a member access is not going anywhere in my opinion. You are seriously comparing your fees to a club that charges 5 bucks more for a non club club member to shoot a match? Come on man!!

[racegun9]

The last 10 months we have averaged 52 shooters at our USPSA matches and those numbers are growing. I have been shooting at this club since I started in USPSA in 2007. At that time the MO section coordinator was a member of our club and ran the matches with the help of some others. It has been this way long before I started in this game at our club. A lot of our local shooters use the club for other shooting activities. Skeet,trap,5 stand,cowboy action,rifle ranges,archery range etc. we have tried to get it changed but with the BOD and the bylaws we haven't been able to make it happen. It has been this way for maybe 15+ years. Our shooters don't seem to mind I guess because it gives them a place to practice too. Is it right? Maybe not. Is it against the USPSA affiliation agreement? I personally don't think so but I am not a lawyer. I enjoy shooting at this club and have put in a lot of time to help run USPSA matches for everyone to enjoy and have fun. So if they want to shut it down to be honest I need a break from putting on matches it's no picnic anyway.

Chances are high I will never shoot at your club because it's in MO somewhere. But what if I took a vacation and thought I would take my gear and shoot a few matches at different clubs. I should, the way I understand the sanctioning agreement, be able to shoot any sanctioned USPSA match anywhere in the country. And no I would NOT pay to join a club that is a thousand miles from me just for the privilege of shooting a match I should be entitled to shoot as a member in good standing in USPSA.

And, are you guys the only place to shoot for miles around? I have maybe 6 matches within a few hours drive of me. None of them require club membership to shoot their SANCTIONED matches. It would be crazy to expect the 50 or so of us regular local circuit shooters to join every club just to be able to shoot matches. That would be crazy expensive and highly impractical. I know for a fact if one of those six clubs were a members only club they would die as far as USPSA is concerned.

Is your club listed under the club finder feature of uspsa.org? Does it clearly say on the uspsa website that you don't allow non members to shoot? If it doesn't, it should. If it does, uspsa HQ should be inquiring why.

We get on average 55 shooters a month at my club. It is a 503 whatever club. They don't want to make money. They want to promote shooting. My match report has to show how many club members vs non club members shoot my matches. From what I understand, keeping track of those stats has something to do with maintaining 503 status? Not sure how all of that works.

I also have to compile results at the end of the season to determine club champions. These are club members only obviously and don't always finish near the top of the standings in the overall results. I think our stats are along the lines of only 25% of the shooters in my matches are club members. The majority of shooters at most all of the local matches around here are not members of the clubs they shoot at.

The wait list is 18 months to get into my club. There are no special ways to get to the front of the line here. You could shoot every rifle match, pistol match etc all year and it means nothing as far as membership in the club is concerned.

I had no idea there were clubs out there that held more or less major shooting sports events that were only available to club members.

I guess you missed the 3 guest visit rule that's in our by laws and we have out of town guests and new shooters every month.

You should also be turning in all your match money with a list of expenses and having the club write you a check. You must not have enough CPA,s in your club.

[bkeeler]

The last 10 months we have averaged 52 shooters at our USPSA matches and those numbers are growing. I have been shooting at this club since I started in USPSA in 2007. At that time the MO section coordinator was a member of our club and ran the matches with the help of some others. It has been this way long before I started in this game at our club. A lot of our local shooters use the club for other shooting activities. Skeet,trap,5 stand,cowboy action,rifle ranges,archery range etc. we have tried to get it changed but with the BOD and the bylaws we haven't been able to make it happen. It has been this way for maybe 15+ years. Our shooters don't seem to mind I guess because it gives them a place to practice too. Is it right? Maybe not. Is it against the USPSA affiliation agreement? I personally don't think so but I am not a lawyer. I enjoy shooting at this club and have put in a lot of time to help run USPSA matches for everyone to enjoy and have fun. So if they want to shut it down to be honest I need a break from putting on matches it's no picnic anyway.

Chances are high I will never shoot at your club because it's in MO somewhere. But what if I took a vacation and thought I would take my gear and shoot a few matches at different clubs. I should, the way I understand the sanctioning agreement, be able to shoot any sanctioned USPSA match anywhere in the country. And no I would NOT pay to join a club that is a thousand miles from me just for the privilege of shooting a match I should be entitled to shoot as a member in good standing in USPSA.

And, are you guys the only place to shoot for miles around? I have maybe 6 matches within a few hours drive of me. None of them require club membership to shoot their SANCTIONED matches. It would be crazy to expect the 50 or so of us regular local circuit shooters to join every club just to be able to shoot matches. That would be crazy expensive and highly impractical. I know for a fact if one of those six clubs were a members only club they would die as far as USPSA is concerned.

Is your club listed under the club finder feature of uspsa.org? Does it clearly say on the uspsa website that you don't allow non members to shoot? If it doesn't, it should. If it does, uspsa HQ should be inquiring why.

We get on average 55 shooters a month at my club. It is a 503 whatever club. They don't want to make money. They want to promote shooting. My match report has to show how many club members vs non club members shoot my matches. From what I understand, keeping track of those stats has something to do with maintaining 503 status? Not sure how all of that works.

I also have to compile results at the end of the season to determine club champions. These are club members only obviously and don't always finish near the top of the standings in the overall results. I think our stats are along the lines of only 25% of the shooters in my matches are club members. The majority of shooters at most all of the local matches around here are not members of the clubs they shoot at.

The wait list is 18 months to get into my club. There are no special ways to get to the front of the line here. You could shoot every rifle match, pistol match etc all year and it means nothing as far as membership in the club is concerned.

I had no idea there were clubs out there that held more or less major shooting sports events that were only available to club members.

Sarge,

You are more than welcome to come shoot with us. You would not have to join our club to do so. Our club allows 3 visits before you actually have to become a member of the club. So you could come 3 times and only pay a $5.00 match fee.

There is another club in IL. That you do have to join but it's only $40.00 and that covers your match fee for that match.