What to do with the revolver division

[Sestock]

It has been five years now and in my opinion the revolver division is a complete failure.

Personally I think that USPSA should seriously think about rolling it into Production and allowing 8 shot revolvers to play.

What do you think that USPSA should do with revolver division?

[John Dunn]

Failure how? Gives the revolver guys a place to shoot, why would they want to shoot in production? Does a division need massive numbers of competitors to be considered successful? Leave it alone.

[Sestock]

I am not making a case to eliminate revolvers from USPSA, but rather to include them as a sub division in Production.

In my opinion that the Revolver division has not justified itself since it's inception to justify remaining a seperate division.

Some numbers that I used to make this conclusion.

Since Revolver has been recoginized as a seperate division only 4% of shooters at a national competition that revolver has been recoginized have chosen to shoot a revolver.

The Breakdown of current USPSA members classification by divsion

Open Classified 37%

Limited Classified 55%

Limited 10 Classified 32%

Production Classifed 18%

Revolver 8%

If you look at the total number of Classifiers in the database revolvers only make up 1.7%.

I realize that there may be pockets within USPSA where Revolver is popular, but as a whole, USPSA members have not flocked to this discipline. Locally we are lucky to see 2 revolvers at a match, sometimes none.

[Pierruiggi]

Hmmm...

My opinions:

1. You don't shoot Revolver (sorry, couldnt resist)

2. I think it should stay, it gives revolver shooters a place where they can measure their skills on even ground. If you put them in production you'd be putting them against 17+ shots pistols that (unless you're Jerry Miculek or spook) reload twice as fast than your revolver.

I believe a revolver has enough differences compared to a pistol to provide them a separate Division.

[hopalong]

Sestock,

No offence meant and none taken but...

Do you shoot revolver?

Do you shoot revolver at Major Matches?

When at a Major Match (USPSA) with Vendors and Sponsors ect have you ever seen any type of Revolver stuff ????

Only the truly dedicated revolver shooters are going to shoot them because of several reasons....

1 and this is quite possibly the biggest...

the people that shoot both will most of the time shoot an automatic because there are more there already and they want to shoot against some competition.

2:

the few others that shoot both will most of the time shoot an automatic because they think in terms of an automatic reading stages and don't realize that your stage procedures are COMPLETELY different with a revolver than with any type of auto with more than 6 rounds.

3:

The Auto is the KING now days, back in the 60s and 70 the revolver was the KING and Marketing is geared toward the Autos now.

4:

IF USPSA wants more participation in Revolver division it (US club members and up) would try to promote it in some kind of way to get more interest in it, maybe add a provisional "open Revolver" division to see if that picks up more participation. Or like FT. Smith Arkansas have a "annual "revolver friendly match"

Only USPSA Nationals had more revolver shooters in it than that match but only by 4

Enough there on that.

BUT just ask the same 3 questions to 97% of the USPSA shooters ( revolver division was 3% of the shooters at 2004 Nationals) and see what you get.

I have shot 2 USPSA nationals...2003 Factory gun and 2004 Handgun and have yet to see any kind of Revolver vendor, Sponsor, Advertising, or anything of the like.

In 2003 I shot L-10 but was quite aware of the surroundings, it was a Factory gun Nationals, you would think the HOST Sactioning body would promote one of the three divisions represented better than that.

USPSA has dropped the ball on Marketing the "other divisions" as when you ask someone around where I live if they have heard of anything other than the race guns they say no, so then have to explain to them that yes they can go get their "cabinet drawer" gun and come shoot that they don't need all that stuff.

But IMHO USPSA has never picked up the ball on the Revolver division aside from adding it to the divisions (but remember to look at my signature about opinions).

I have a small suggestion to USPSA or anyone on the BoD that may help get more competitors at the Nationals....

Have 2 nationals Race gun, Open, Limited, L-10 (because most of the L-10 shooters use race rigs) and then a Factory, Production and Revolver and have the "provisional L-8 division and Open Revolver division" allowed to shoot to add numbers of Participants. JUST an IDEA...

But back to the orginal programming.

If We(USPSA) promoted revolver shooting as much as Auto shooting there would be plenty of revolver shooter to go around....

The Idea of a 30+ round stage with a revolver that only shoots 6 at a time will scare the HELL out of even some good shooters much less anyone just getting interested in the game......

Sorry for the long post and the drift but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Hopalong / SAM KEEN

[dajarrel]

Sestock,

You are right. There are not droves of revolver shooters. But there are quite a few people who pick up a revolver occasionally. They problaby wouldn't if they were completing against bottom feeders. Have you ever shot revolver? If not, I would suggest trying it prior to wanting to do away with it. I go back and forth from revolver to bottom feeder and the time I spend shooting revolver is tremendous training for shooting Limited (in my case) It teaches you to watch your sights and count your rounds.

Revolver shooters want to shoot against revolver shooters. Although some may have 8 shooters, I for one have invested a fair amount in getting a couple of 6shooters ready for the game. I'd hate to start over.

There are quite a few revolver shooters that participate in this forum. I hope to hear from them.

I've said enough,

FWIW

dj

[Ron Ankeny]

Every revolver shooter I have met at a match is a supporter of USPSA, they pony up their bucks to play, and as a whole, revolver shooters are a really great bunch of guys. Let 'em shoot. Besides, I don't mind picking brass for a revolver shooter and ROing them doesn't hurt my ears as much as the Open gunners.

I haven't shoot a revolver much for over a year, but my old model 25 hasn't lost it's lure. Who knows, in the future I might knock the dust off the old six shooter and be "one of them" again.

[JohnRodriguez]

it's been 5 years from what??? anyways, it's as simple as this, if you don't shoot em you shouldn't have a opinion on them. Just remember this, myself and other revolver shooters can pick up a semi-auto and probably run circles around you, while you more than likely wouldn't know ware to begin with a revo. I don't mean to get personal, but that has been my observation of most people who don't like revolvers, and bad mouth those of us who do like the challenge of running a six shoot game.

[Nik Habicht]

Personally I think that USPSA should seriously think about rolling it into Production and allowing 8 shot revolvers to play.

What do you think that USPSA should do with revolver division?

Read the rulebook ---- 8 shot revolvers can already play in Production division. I'm pretty sure that my regular two revolver shooters would have a different opinion of the success of the division. They seem pretty happy the way things are --- and would be at a serious disadvantage in Production.

I'm pretty sure I could get more people to play with revolvers if we created divisions for Open Revolver and Rimfire Revolver --- it might even triple my revolver shooters......

For the record --- I think Revolver is fine the way it is. When I propose a change to the Revolver Division, it will be at the request of multiple REVOLVER shooters, including the ones who shoot my club match......

[kdj]

You know ... if there was an Open Revolver Division ... I think I'd be tempted!

Kevin

[Sestock]

I guess revolver is the third rail of USPSA.

No I do not shoot a revolver, no desire ever too. I am not aganist revolver shooters and I do not want to ban revolver shooters from coming out and playing. There is a problem with the marketing effort about Revolver, but a big part of the problem has to lay at the local level.

2. I think it should stay, it gives revolver shooters a place where they can measure their skills on even ground. If you put them in production you'd be putting them against 17+ shots pistols that (unless you're Jerry Miculek or spook) reload twice as fast than your revolver.

Production is only 10 shot.

if you don't shoot em you shouldn't have a opinion on them.

it's as simple as this, if you don't shoot em you shouldn't have a opinion on them.

Why Not? I spend a hell of a lot of time out on the range helping run our program.

Have 2 nationals Race gun, Open, Limited, L-10 (because most of the L-10 shooters use race rigs) and then a Factory, Production and Revolver and have the "provisional L-8 division and Open Revolver division" allowed to shoot to add numbers of Participants. JUST an IDEA...

Maybe 20 people will come and shoot a revolver. I think that USPSA should have stuck with the single Nationals format that was used in 2004. I hope to hell that they do not loss a ton of money in 2005.

Just remember this, myself and other revolver shooters can pick up a semi-auto and probably run circles around you, while you more than likely wouldn't know ware to begin with a revo.

I own revolvers and have no desire to shoot them in competition, but, I bet that I wouldn't finish last. Bring your auto out and I will watch you run circles around me, if you can.

[Sestock]

I guess I may have gone overboard with the last post.

What would you do to improve attendence at local and major matches?

I still think that the marketing of the division has to start from the bottom and go up.

[Carmoney]

Y'know, I have a funny feeling with all the hassles over in IDPA-Land, we may just start seeing more wheelgunners drifting over toward USPSA. I think we just might be at the very beginning of a mild but significant upsurge in participation in Revolver class. For example:

The Florida Open (a major match on the circuit, by anybody's standards) had only a couple or three revolver shooters the past several years. This year, in no small part due to a bunch of us hard-core roundgunners communicating and working together here on this forum, we have something like 9 or 10 revolver shooters signed up!

The last time I looked, the number of revolver shooters committed in principle to attending Flex's Ohio Section Match in June is in double-digit territory!

This may not sound like much, and it's not yet, but it's a meaningful increase.

According to the USPSA website, the very first shooter to jump on board the 2005 USPSA Point Series was wheelgunner Dan Carden, and I was right behind him!

With this renewal of interest, I suspect the numbers of revolver shooters at the Nationals will jump significantly this summer.

Want to see more revolver shooters participating at your local club? Here's a great idea that has worked very well around here: Hold two matches a month--the first match for Open and Limited, the second match (2 weekends later) for Production, L-10, Revo, and maybe the new provisional single-stack class. It's great fun, everybody gets good at shooting more than one type of gun, twice the trigger time! Win-win situation!

Mike

[JFD]

Look like L-10 gets a break for a change

Why exactly does it matter if a division has fewer participants than someone thinks it should?

We're members of an organization that's all about shooting handguns. Revolvers are certainly handguns. Sub-category in Production? I don't shoot a revolver in USPSA, but it appears that shooting a 6 round gun in a sport with possible 9 rounds "arrays" would be sufficiently different (night and day difference) from the autos in Production to warrant divisional status.

Perhaps the question should be "what can we do to increase participants in Revolver division?" The same can be said for L-10 and Production. The answer is advertising. USPSA is a brand, and we are identified in the marketplace as a "racegun sport". Get rid of that incorrect perception and I believe all divisions would see more participants, greatly benefiting our organization.

Killing off divisions because they haven't thrived in a vacuum of public ignorance isn't the answer IMHO.

I don't have any stake in Revolver division, and have previously thought that Revolver "should just go away". I originally thought that the provisional "CDP" division was a waste of time. NOW I think that if we want the organization to prosper, we need to offer what our potential customers want, or at least our best educated guess at what they want. Then we need to fully support the divisions that are created.

This forum has a lot of people with good ideas and I'm thankful that I finally started reading posts with a more open mind.

[Sestock]

If the IDPA crowd has an interest then we as a group need to do something to bring them into the fold. I am totally open minded on this subject and posted this topic to get a discussion going on this subject.

[Carmoney]

Also, virtually every good revolver shooter out there is also pretty darn good with a semi-auto.

At least that's what I've seen.

Mike

[hopalong]

JFD hit the nail on the head:

USPSA is a brand, and we are identified in the marketplace as a "race gun sport"

This must be changed and it all started with the gun rags several years ago and has not been altered not even in our own Front Sight is there anything much to change it, you looked at the front covers? (front covers get the attention)

Revolver in USPSA is a Challenge to say the least, more reloads, less room for error( Must make all shots count ) Stage breakdown is Completely different than with any other gun, intimidating to someone just beginning in the game would be an understatement if there ever was one.

It takes a different type of person to WANT to shoot revolver competitively in USPSA, I started with a Limited gun and shot it for 3 years, had fun would not change anything if I had the chance, but learning to do the things with a revolver that I never even thought I could do with an Automatic is still blowing my mind.

Rob or Gary if you guys read this maybe some discussion between some of the "chiefs" and not just the "indians" Marketing, Marketing, Marketing

Hopalong / SAM KEEN

[spook]

I can't speak for USPSA, but the numer of IPSC revo guys is growing. OK, so it's not growing as fast as Production. I think there will be about 100 guys shooting wheelguns at the next World Shoot.

Maybe some guys in the US won't play because they will have to face Revogod Jerry

[Chuck D]

" Looks like L-10 gets a break for a change"

Thank God....

Revolver Division will remain regardless. Constant talk of eliminating Divisions and/or consolidating Divisions takes place just about everywhere but Sedro Woolley and Chino, California... the two places where change occurs.

In the 18 years I've been a member of USPSA I can not remember a single Division being eliminated or consolidated. Changes within the Divisions has occured but the outright elimination/consolidation of a Division has not.

History speaks volumes.

[Bill Nesbitt]

If the IDPA crowd has an interest then we as a group need to do something to bring them into the fold.  I am totally open minded on this subject and posted this topic to get a discussion going on this subject.

If you want to get IDPA shooters to shoot in USPSA then leave it ALONE. There are a LOT of IDPA shooters that will turn to USPSA simply because IDPA is allowing 8-shot revolvers. Leave it at 6-shots and it will grow. If you increase it to 8-shots like IDPA just did then it will die. There are a bunch of happy 625 owners out there. I don't know how many 8-shot revolvers have been built but I bet it's a lot less than 6-shooters.

Bill Nesbitt

[Nik Habicht]

I don't know how many 8-shot revolvers have been built but I bet it's a lot less than 6-shooters.

Bill Nesbitt

And the board was nice enough to give them a home to play in --- maybe not one in which they're perfectly competitive --- but close. You can shoot production with an eight round wheelgun now.......

Lets get the word out.....

[redmist10]

If the IDPA crowd has an interest then we as a group need to do something to bring them into the fold. I am totally open minded on this subject and posted this topic to get a discussion going on this subject.

Cancel the revolver division....that will win our hearts!

[omnia1911]

It is not mandatory that all of the divisions be recognized at every match. If you don't like Revolver Division, don't use it at your match. There really is no need to eliminate the division from USPSA.

[Pierruiggi]

2. I think it should stay, it gives revolver shooters a place where they can measure their skills on even ground. If you put them in production you'd be putting them against 17+ shots pistols that (unless you're Jerry Miculek or spook) reload twice as fast than your revolver.

Production is only 10 shot.

Oops You're right. Sometimes I forget the subtle and not-so-subtle USPSA vs IPSC rule variations. Sorry.

[MikeFoley]

I shoot Limited all year and at every major I attend. I shoot Revolver as a second gun, or at an extra match for a total of about 8 times a year. I won't ever shoot it primary, but I want it to be there when I want to shoot it. If everyone that I shoot with brings their revolver, and it has happened, then we have about ten revolvers in our squad. That is one of the most fun matches I recall, when us primary bottomfeeders came out with our wheelguns, comical and surprising talent all at the same time.

There are more single stack 1911s, double action autos, and revolvers sold than any other type of gun. Most people outside of our sport don't know who S_I or the custom guys are. Revovler has its own place in this sport. I wonder what Jeff Cooper would say about the existence of the wheelgun in sport shooting?