See through walls

[one-gun]

Just observing this thread bc it's interesting and I've only shot one uspsa match. But this had me wondering if a question was asked first of a cro or a match director to see if this was ok. From watching and ro'ing top ICORE shooters, they don't seem to walk themselves into too many violations. They get the green light first then blaze through wfo and tires squealing.

[motosapiens]

Sure you can see the target behind the wall, but you can't SHOOT at it until it is no longer behind the wall. Sticking your gun through a port and aiming THROUGH the snow-fence wall is really no different than sticking your gun through a port on a SOLID wall and shooting without aiming, (at least as far ar the rules are concerned.)

I guess we cannot look through these fence walls when running a stage and see targets behind them (unless we have X-ray vision). So, run the stages with these walls with eyes closed?

Well, there you go. You're allowed to stick your gun through a port and fire it towards targets without sighting, and if the wall is mesh, you can certainly look through it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with sighting through the mesh as long as you are not shooting through it.

I would expect that the next time there will be a banner or no-shoot above the port. That is a MUCH better solution than going all IDPA and just telling people they're not allowed to look through the mesh (and expecting RO's to figure out where people are looking instead of watching the gun).

I was actually concerned about a genuine rules issue, which is that sometimes, targets were available through the mesh, and it wouldn't necessarily be easy to tell if a shooter had actually followed a swinger into the mesh if they didn't hit one of the wires. Thankfully, that did not actually come up, which tells me uspsa shooters pay some attention to the rules. We did tape quite a few holes in the wood though, and called a number of mikes that had passed full-diameter through the wood.

[motosapiens]

Just observing this thread bc it's interesting and I've only shot one uspsa match. But this had me wondering if a question was asked first of a cro or a match director to see if this was ok. From watching and ro'ing top ICORE shooters, they don't seem to walk themselves into too many violations. They get the green light first then blaze through wfo and tires squealing.

there's no question to ask. Most good uspsa shooters know the rules and know that there is no rule whatsoever that could be used to prohibit sighting through a mesh wall. If you want people to not do that in USPSA, you have to physically prevent it with an opaque vision barrier.

[terrydoc]

[mildot1]

I have been stewing on this one all day, not sure which way to lean. So I will throw this out.

We all agree that walls are hard cover, you can't shoot through them and "theoretically" we can't see through them. There are many uses of the word but I picked this one from websters for this instance.

cov·erverb \ˈkə-vər\

: to put something over, on top of, or in front of (something else) especially in order to protect, hide, or close it

So let me ask this.

If you were the RO and the shooter was moving down a lane that had walls that prevented him from engaging the target and had his finger on the trigger?

Would you issue a DQ under 10.5.10? See 8.5.1 which states "Except when actively aiming or shooting at a target's"

I use this rule, if the shooter can see the target and is moving I consider him to be actively engaging the target because he can fire at any time.

If the target is behind any wall" mesh, wood, or whatever and I observe him moving with finger on trigger I would stop the shooter.

Using that line of thinking I am wondering why I would allow a shooter to shoot around a wall while actually sighting the firearm through the wall??????????

Open for debate

Mildot

[remoandiris]

If you were the RO and the shooter was moving down a lane that had walls that prevented him from engaging the target and had his finger on the trigger?

Would you issue a DQ under 10.5.10? See 8.5.1 which states "Except when actively aiming or shooting at a target's"

Is the shooter aiming thru the wall or just moving? If aiming, theory is out the window and the shooter is aiming. If just moving to a shooting position with finger on the trigger, DQ.

[bikerburgess]

I have been stewing on this one all day, not sure which way to lean. So I will throw this out.

We all agree that walls are hard cover, you can't shoot through them and "theoretically" we can't see through them. There are many uses of the word but I picked this one from websters for this instance.

cov·erverb ˈkə-vər

: to put something over, on top of, or in front of (something else) especially in order to protect, hide, or close it

So let me ask this.

If you were the RO and the shooter was moving down a lane that had walls that prevented him from engaging the target and had his finger on the trigger?

Would you issue a DQ under 10.5.10? See 8.5.1 which states "Except when actively aiming or shooting at a target's"

I use this rule, if the shooter can see the target and is moving I consider him to be actively engaging the target because he can fire at any time.

If the target is behind any wall" mesh, wood, or whatever and I observe him moving with finger on trigger I would stop the shooter.

Using that line of thinking I am wondering why I would allow a shooter to shoot around a wall while actually sighting the firearm through the wall??????????

Open for debate

Mildot

Well the DNROI (retired) recently answered that question and said DQ I belive it was published in Front Sight? So that would be the call.

I still don't see what the issue is the stage was set with a port that you needed to shoot through in a wall you could see through so people did both things at the same time. If as a stage designer it is important to me or make someone do something I need to find a way to MAKE them wanting them to is irrelevant, and there are no rules that suggest otherwise.

Edited to fix auto correct

Edited October 1, 2014 by bikerburgess

[Nik Habicht]

If you were the RO and the shooter was moving down a lane that had walls that prevented him from engaging the target and had his finger on the trigger?

Would you issue a DQ under 10.5.10? See 8.5.1 which states "Except when actively aiming or shooting at a target's"

Is the shooter aiming thru the wall or just moving? If aiming, theory is out the window and the shooter is aiming. If just moving to a shooting position with finger on the trigger, DQ.

Amidon addressed it in one of his recent columns and suggested that it would be a DQ for finger on the trigger while moving and aiming through the mesh, as opposed to through a port in the mesh....

First is dq, second is business as usual. In a nutshell he was ruling that a mesh wall should be treated like a solid wall for safety/officiating purposes...

[Nik Habicht]

I have been stewing on this one all day, not sure which way to lean. So I will throw this out.

We all agree that walls are hard cover, you can't shoot through them and "theoretically" we can't see through them. There are many uses of the word but I picked this one from websters for this instance.

cov·erverb \ˈkə-vər\

: to put something over, on top of, or in front of (something else) especially in order to protect, hide, or close it

So let me ask this.

If you were the RO and the shooter was moving down a lane that had walls that prevented him from engaging the target and had his finger on the trigger?

Would you issue a DQ under 10.5.10? See 8.5.1 which states "Except when actively aiming or shooting at a target's"

I use this rule, if the shooter can see the target and is moving I consider him to be actively engaging the target because he can fire at any time.

If the target is behind any wall" mesh, wood, or whatever and I observe him moving with finger on trigger I would stop the shooter.

Using that line of thinking I am wondering why I would allow a shooter to shoot around a wall while actually sighting the firearm through the wall??????????

Open for debate

Mildot

I try hard not to apply stage design rules to safety situations and vice versa.....

My reaction to this scenario is that it simply needs to be addressed by the RM before the match starts, so that it's uniformly enforced throughout the match, so that every competitor has the same opportunity....

[teros135]

I'm having trouble finding where you can't "see" through a barrier or wall.

In the rulebook, Section 2.2 talks about physical barriers being used to restrict competitor movement and to provide additional competitive challenges. 2.2.3 talks about how to construct barriers and mentions walls, vision barriers, snow fence barriers, and generic barriers as being considered to go from the ground to the height as constructed, unless otherwise specified in the WSB.

9.1.6 says that, unless specifically described as "softcover" in the WSB, all props, walls, barriers, vision screens, and other obstacles are deemed to be impenetrable "hard cover", and then goes on to talk about how to score partial or full bullet hits on these.

In the Glossary (Appendix A3) under "View" it mentions that a vision barrier of some sort must be used to create a new "view" specific to an array of targets.

"Wall" is mentioned in 2.2.3.3 as one of the types of barriers that, by definition, are considered to go from the ground to the construction height and in 9.1.6 has being considered to automatically be deemed impenetrable "hard cover".

Maybe, somewhere in the rulebook, it talks about how you're not supposed to be able to see through a "wall" or "barrier", but I couldn't find that. It does mention "impenetrable hard cover", and it's pretty clear that you can't shoot through them, but it doesn't say that you can't see through them. Perhaps we're going a bit too far in making the assumption that we don't see what we can see, even though it's pretty clear that we can't act on what we see through a wall (we can't shoot through the wall).

I'm thinking the shooter(s) who aimed through the transparent barrier were simply using what was available to them, which is the nature of USPSA (i.e., "freestyle").

[mildot1]

Just to keep it going.

4.1.4.1 "Cover provided to hide all or a portion of a target will be considered hard cover". Yes it goes on to say it "should not be simulated" But should does not mean "will".

If you were the RO and the shooter was moving down a lane that had walls that prevented him from engaging the target and had his finger on the trigger?

Would you issue a DQ under 10.5.10? See 8.5.1 which states "Except when actively aiming or shooting at a target's"

Is the shooter aiming thru the wall or just moving? If aiming, theory is out the window and the shooter is aiming. If just moving to a shooting position with finger on the trigger, DQ.

I don't know? So if there is a 30 foot space of ground I have to cover from accessible target to target, is it okay to keep my gun up and finger on the trigger as long as I can see the targets? Even though there is a wall between me and them?

[Sarge]

I have been stewing on this one all day, not sure which way to lean. So I will throw this out.

We all agree that walls are hard cover, you can't shoot through them and "theoretically" we can't see through them. There are many uses of the word but I picked this one from websters for this instance.

cov·erverb \ˈkə-vər\

: to put something over, on top of, or in front of (something else) especially in order to protect, hide, or close it

So let me ask this.

If you were the RO and the shooter was moving down a lane that had walls that prevented him from engaging the target and had his finger on the trigger?

Would you issue a DQ under 10.5.10? See 8.5.1 which states "Except when actively aiming or shooting at a target's"

I use this rule, if the shooter can see the target and is moving I consider him to be actively engaging the target because he can fire at any time.

If the target is behind any wall" mesh, wood, or whatever and I observe him moving with finger on trigger I would stop the shooter.

Using that line of thinking I am wondering why I would allow a shooter to shoot around a wall while actually sighting the firearm through the wall??????????

Open for debate

Mildot

I agree that would be a DQ. I have seen it happen more than a few times. Which is why I agree that you should not be able to aim through a wall and shoot through a port.

[Sarge]

Just to keep it going.

4.1.4.1 "Cover provided to hide all or a portion of a target will be considered hard cover". Yes it goes on to say it "should not be simulated" But should does not mean "will".

If you were the RO and the shooter was moving down a lane that had walls that prevented him from engaging the target and had his finger on the trigger?

Would you issue a DQ under 10.5.10? See 8.5.1 which states "Except when actively aiming or shooting at a target's"

Is the shooter aiming thru the wall or just moving? If aiming, theory is out the window and the shooter is aiming. If just moving to a shooting position with finger on the trigger, DQ.

I don't know? So if there is a 30 foot space of ground I have to cover from accessible target to target, is it okay to keep my gun up and finger on the trigger as long as I can see the targets? Even though there is a wall between me and them?

No.

[Ssanders224]

I enjoy most of the rules discussions here, and can usually see both sides, but this one is ridiculous.

This is USPSA. If you don't want me to be able to look through a wall, make it solid, period. The WSB or RO cannot tell me what I'm allowed to look at. Furthermore, who's to say I was aiming? Maybe I'm just that good at point shooting? I'm shooting through the port, hitting the target, and not committing any safety infractions. End of story.

Just to note, several shooters also shot through a low port using this same technique at the FL Open this year.

[remoandiris]

If you were the RO and the shooter was moving down a lane that had walls that prevented him from engaging the target and had his finger on the trigger?

Would you issue a DQ under 10.5.10? See 8.5.1 which states "Except when actively aiming or shooting at a target's"

Is the shooter aiming thru the wall or just moving? If aiming, theory is out the window and the shooter is aiming. If just moving to a shooting position with finger on the trigger, DQ.

Amidon addressed it in one of his recent columns and suggested that it would be a DQ for finger on the trigger while moving and aiming through the mesh, as opposed to through a port in the mesh....

First is dq, second is business as usual. In a nutshell he was ruling that a mesh wall should be treated like a solid wall for safety/officiating purposes...

Not to get into wordsmithing, but if he suggested it, as you said, it is just a suggestion. I'll go dig thru FS to find it since there is nothing about it on the USPSA NROI pages.

Edited October 1, 2014 by remoandiris

[frag316]

I personally think that issuing procedurals for someone using a mesh wall to aim thru while shooting at targets thru a port is really looking for reasons to penalize competitors. This only perpetuates the stereotype of ROs at larger matches seeing the contest being an RO vs. Competitor contest, rather than a competitor vs. competitor contest.

Yeah, I get that walls are hard cover--for scoring purposes, they're treated as if they're solid.

However, expense and ass pain of building solid walls being what they are, and taking the course designers' intents into consideration, if a course designer wanted people to not be able to see what's on the other side of the wall, they would put a solid wall in that spot.

And at the Nationals, I have a hard time believing they couldn't have found one solid barrier to put up there.

[Nik Habicht]

Just to keep it going.

4.1.4.1 "Cover provided to hide all or a portion of a target will be considered hard cover". Yes it goes on to say it "should not be simulated" But should does not mean "will".

If you were the RO and the shooter was moving down a lane that had walls that prevented him from engaging the target and had his finger on the trigger?

Would you issue a DQ under 10.5.10? See 8.5.1 which states "Except when actively aiming or shooting at a target's"

Is the shooter aiming thru the wall or just moving? If aiming, theory is out the window and the shooter is aiming. If just moving to a shooting position with finger on the trigger, DQ.

I don't know? So if there is a 30 foot space of ground I have to cover from accessible target to target, is it okay to keep my gun up and finger on the trigger as long as I can see the targets? Even though there is a wall between me and them?

No. Per Amidon that would be a match DQ....

[Nik Habicht]

For safety calls -- i.e. finger on the trigger while moving -- I wouldn't want my staff to make distinctions between solid walls and mesh walls. Basically if there's hard cover between the shooter and the targets, and the competitor is moving with a finger on the trigger, DQ.

Moving with a finger on the trigger is potentially risky, yet needs to be allowed for purposes of shooting on the move. Being able to see the target -- while not being able to engage it -- should not serve as a pass.

Nor do I want to deal with the arbitration from the shooter DQ'd for finger on the trigger on a solid wall who argues that a squad mate wasn't dq'd for a similar action in front of a mesh wall.....

I like consistency when it comes to rules -- shooters shouldn't have to re-think their approach to the stage based on how the hard cover is constructed....

[motosapiens]

For safety calls -- i.e. finger on the trigger while moving -- I wouldn't want my staff to make distinctions between solid walls and mesh walls. Basically if there's hard cover between the shooter and the targets, and the competitor is moving with a finger on the trigger, DQ.

Moving with a finger on the trigger is potentially risky, yet needs to be allowed for purposes of shooting on the move. Being able to see the target -- while not being able to engage it -- should not serve as a pass.

Nor do I want to deal with the arbitration from the shooter DQ'd for finger on the trigger on a solid wall who argues that a squad mate wasn't dq'd for a similar action in front of a mesh wall.....

I like consistency when it comes to rules -- shooters shouldn't have to re-think their approach to the stage based on how the hard cover is constructed....

working the last 3 nationals I've observed alot of good shooters, both in mesh walls like this year and in solid walls like 2012 and in a combination of mesh and solid like last year. One thing that pretty much ALL the top shooters have in common is that when they come to a port or end of a wall, they have the gun up, ready to engage targets at the earliest possible opportunity. It also *appears* to me that the majority of them have already moved their finger into the trigger guard. This doesn't seem any different to me than being ready to ambush a swinger, or any other moving target. Before the target has presented itself, you have the gun up and sighted on the space where the target is about to appear. I think calling a dq for finger in the trigger guard when the gun is up and being sighted and the target is about to appear would be a difficult call to make and a more difficult call to uphold in arbitration.

Yeah, if you're halfway along a wall and can see targets and you're running with your finger in the trigger guard, not good, but if you have the gun up in a shooting position aimed where the targets are about to appear, I don't see it getting called.

[bikerburgess]

For safety calls -- i.e. finger on the trigger while moving -- I wouldn't want my staff to make distinctions between solid walls and mesh walls. Basically if there's hard cover between the shooter and the targets, and the competitor is moving with a finger on the trigger, DQ.

Moving with a finger on the trigger is potentially risky, yet needs to be allowed for purposes of shooting on the move. Being able to see the target -- while not being able to engage it -- should not serve as a pass.

Nor do I want to deal with the arbitration from the shooter DQ'd for finger on the trigger on a solid wall who argues that a squad mate wasn't dq'd for a similar action in front of a mesh wall.....

I like consistency when it comes to rules -- shooters shouldn't have to re-think their approach to the stage based on how the hard cover is constructed....

working the last 3 nationals I've observed alot of good shooters, both in mesh walls like this year and in solid walls like 2012 and in a combination of mesh and solid like last year. One thing that pretty much ALL the top shooters have in common is that when they come to a port or end of a wall, they have the gun up, ready to engage targets at the earliest possible opportunity. It also *appears* to me that the majority of them have already moved their finger into the trigger guard. This doesn't seem any different to me than being ready to ambush a swinger, or any other moving target. Before the target has presented itself, you have the gun up and sighted on the space where the target is about to appear. I think calling a dq for finger in the trigger guard when the gun is up and being sighted and the target is about to appear would be a difficult call to make and a more difficult call to uphold in arbitration.

Yeah, if you're halfway along a wall and can see targets and you're running with your finger in the trigger guard, not good, but if you have the gun up in a shooting position aimed where the targets are about to appear, I don't see it getting called.

I agree that this interpretation is one that is hard to call as you described. it also is more complicated when you add in that a while back Amidon also said that targets that were shot through or under walls should be considered engaged and only the misses for the rounds passing through hard cover assessed. so now we have a paradox where you can engage a target through a wall at the same time you are being DQed if you were moving when you engaged it.

Edited October 1, 2014 by bikerburgess

[rhett45acp]

I have to toss this out there. At range E11even, all the walls are snow barriers. In reality most of the time you can see all the targets setup. So if I draw and lock out the pistol with finger inside trigger guard from start box and aim my way through the course, am I DQed? IMHO - I would DQ me.

BTW - I have mixed emotions about the snow barriers. It cheap, light and easy to work with. But to Jim's point the fence things they use at OB are much experience and does not generate fun threads like this one, at least on this subject.

[motosapiens]

I have to toss this out there. At range E11even, all the walls are snow barriers. In reality most of the time you can see all the targets setup. So if I draw and lock out the pistol with finger inside trigger guard from start box and aim my way through the course, am I DQed? IMHO - I would DQ me.

My personal opinion is it's not a black/white issue. I'm perfectly ok with your finger inside the trigger guard just before the target becomes available, but not ok with it being inside the trigger guard several yards (or seconds) before the target is available. FWIW, i would apply the same thinking to opaque walls. All the best shooters still have their gun up and aiming before the target actually becomes visible.

[frag316]

I have to toss this out there. At range E11even, all the walls are snow barriers. In reality most of the time you can see all the targets setup. So if I draw and lock out the pistol with finger inside trigger guard from start box and aim my way through the course, am I DQed? IMHO - I would DQ me.

My personal opinion is it's not a black/white issue. I'm perfectly ok with your finger inside the trigger guard just before the target becomes available, but not ok with it being inside the trigger guard several yards (or seconds) before the target is available. FWIW, i would apply the same thinking to opaque walls. All the best shooters still have their gun up and aiming before the target actually becomes visible.

I agree with this--there's a difference between aiming and aiming with the finger inside the trigger guard.

[remoandiris]

Just to keep it going.

4.1.4.1 "Cover provided to hide all or a portion of a target will be considered hard cover". Yes it goes on to say it "should not be simulated" But should does not mean "will".

If you were the RO and the shooter was moving down a lane that had walls that prevented him from engaging the target and had his finger on the trigger?

Would you issue a DQ under 10.5.10? See 8.5.1 which states "Except when actively aiming or shooting at a target's"

Is the shooter aiming thru the wall or just moving? If aiming, theory is out the window and the shooter is aiming. If just moving to a shooting position with finger on the trigger, DQ.

I don't know? So if there is a 30 foot space of ground I have to cover from accessible target to target, is it okay to keep my gun up and finger on the trigger as long as I can see the targets? Even though there is a wall between me and them?

Well when you throw that other tidbit of info in there (30' to cover), you are moving with your finger in the trigger guard which is a violation of another rule.

[remoandiris]

I have to toss this out there. At range E11even, all the walls are snow barriers. In reality most of the time you can see all the targets setup. So if I draw and lock out the pistol with finger inside trigger guard from start box and aim my way through the course, am I DQed? IMHO - I would DQ me.

My personal opinion is it's not a black/white issue. I'm perfectly ok with your finger inside the trigger guard just before the target becomes available, but not ok with it being inside the trigger guard several yards (or seconds) before the target is available. FWIW, i would apply the same thinking to opaque walls. All the best shooters still have their gun up and aiming before the target actually becomes visible.

I agree with this--there's a difference between aiming and aiming with the finger inside the trigger guard.

+1.