38SuperDub Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 I'm BACCCCKKKKK Ok - serious question here: Production shooter shoots a stage that is unloaded start with 11 in the first mag - gets bumped to open. Later finds out he has to reshoot the stage due to completely wrong start position - gets put back in production. Anything that supports this one way or the other? If that shooter would have DQ'd on the stage but found out he was started wrong - he is still DQ'd. Not picking on the person this happened to - but looked in the rule book and can't find the answer either way to support it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) 10.1.4? Edited September 3, 2014 by ChuckS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayougump Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 8.2.2 is my best guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 10.1.4 does not apply--being moved to Open is not a procedural penalty, because the move to Open is covered under 6.2.5.1. While I can't find anything that prohibits the move back, I think it's counter-intuitive to suggest that a competitor could be moved back to Production because he's been directed to reshoot the CoF where he bumped to Open. I also find no verbiage which supports a move from Open to the initial division, because the competitor only moves when he fails to prove he's in compliance with his division's requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 You weren't DQ'ed, which would mean you could not continue in the match. You could continue, just in open. As to the reshoot issue...., no opinion. You (you?) did violate the requirements of production, so I would tend to think that still stands, but.... nah, no opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 I'd probably just say to the shooter "you just lucked out" and skip the move to Open. Only, however, if it was a shooter who didn't have a record of committing the original offence a number of times in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TinCan Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 8.2.2 The first run never happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 As Frag316 mentioned, 6.2.5.1 supports a move to Open. I see nothing that says a COF to be reshot "never happened". As such, I don't see any reason they could be moved back from Open. 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 So to clarify it wasn't the start position completely it was how the gun was positioned per the WSB I don't see anything that says one way or the other. It's def something that may need clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayougump Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 8.2.2 is what I keep going to as the COF was not started in correct position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 But that doesn't say anything about negating the bump - if I drop a gun while starting in a wrong start position - am I still DQ'd? See the other argument.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 If I understood the initial post correctly, the reason for the move to Open was 11 rounds in the mag. Please correct me if my reading comprehension is faulty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) I'd probably just say to the shooter "you just lucked out" and skip the move to Open. Only, however, if it was a shooter who didn't have a record of committing the original offence a number of times in the past. Since when do RO's get to judge a shooter based on his past infractions. There was either a rule infraction or there wasn't. The shooter's past mistakes do not apply. Edited September 3, 2014 by Ssanders224 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 Steve - that is correct - 11 rounds in the mag at an unloaded start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayougump Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 But that doesn't say anything about negating the bump - if I drop a gun while starting in a wrong start position - am I still DQ'd? See the other argument.... I see the other argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 I don't care really either way - just more about consistency - it needs to be ruled the same way every time from match to match.I may write DNROI (I know what way he will rule since he helped make the original ruling) just to get an official ruling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Why do competitors get reshoots? Because there was some type of problem with a stage. Does the competitor get the same penalties on the subsequent run they earned on the first run? No. Why would this be any different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parallax3D Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Kent (Frag 3:16), is right.A reshoot is a SECOND attempt at shooting a stage. It's not like the first attempt never happened. It is a SECOND attempt to shoot the stage, either mandatory, or at the shooter's option.If the shooter refuses a mandatory reshoot, the stage is scored as a zero. (2.3.3.3)If the shooter refuses an optional reshoot, then the previous score stands.Either way, if they get bumped to Open because of an equipment violation, they stay in Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) Bumping someone to Open is a complicated issue. If they are found shooting a gun that doesn't fit the division then it's pretty clear cut. But this particular situation doesn't refer to something that blatant. 6.5.2.1 states, in part, "...during a course of fire..." That means that once the infraction is observed, the rule has been violated. It doesn't matter if the stage is reshot or even if it was never finished due to an equipment malfunction. It's technically no different than if they were out there with the wrong gun. The problem, for me, is that presumably this is a one time error, a mistake, a misunderstanding. Moving someone to open for this is a pretty drastic penalty. I know, that rules are rules are rules. I'm just saying that it's a bit heavy handed and that tends to make us want to give the guy a break. Particularly since I've seen this happen to shooters who didn't know better when there is an unloaded start. Edited September 3, 2014 by Graham Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parallax3D Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Why do competitors get reshoots? Because there was some type of problem with a stage. Does the competitor get the same penalties on the subsequent run they earned on the first run? No. Why would this be any different. Because bumping someone to Open is not a penalty, (per se, although it will FEEL like it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 A shooter is bumped to Open because of an advantage over the rest of the Production field, ie gun improvements, more mag capacity etc... If the stage run in which the violation (advantage) occured no longer counts, then they (in this particular case) no longer have an advantage over the rest of the field. If I foot fault on my first run, then re-shoot, my foot fault penalty is erased. Same principal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 A shooter is bumped to Open because of an advantage over the rest of the Production field, ie gun improvements, more mag capacity etc...snip No, a shooter is bumped to open because they failed to satisfy the the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 But that doesn't say anything about negating the bump - if I drop a gun while starting in a wrong start position - am I still DQ'd? See the other argument.... Yes, that's correct, Rule 6.2.6. This is a good one. However, if you reshoot a COF, the last results are deleted as if it never happened, we don't keep them and say "Run 1, Run 2..." or whatever. It would seem that since that run did not count for score, that the subsequent run should put him back in Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 A shooter is bumped to Open because of an advantage over the rest of the Production field, ie gun improvements, more mag capacity etc...snip No, a shooter is bumped to open because they failed to satisfy the the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire. Could be both...check out Appendix D4, 21 (failed equipment requirement which could be seen as an advantage) and 6.2.5.1 (Failed to satisfy equipment or other requirements of a division or it's unavailable) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Interesting conundrum and I agree it seems to be a grey area. I'd be interested to hear what NROI has to say about this one. My first thought was you can't unring the bell, but as was pointed out in the example of a foot fault if for whatever reason the shooter is given a reshoot then the procedural goes away (provided they don't fault the line in the reshoot). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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