Is an AR slamfire after LAMR a DQ under USPSA rules?

[ericm]

Like kurtm alludes to in the technical rifle thread on slamfire, I have become very dutiful of putting on my safety, keeping finger straight, AND TELLING THE RO "Safety on, finger straight" BEFORE I drop the bolt after LAMR with my AR.

The one slamfire at a match I've seen WAS kurtm at the MW3G, and the match director's call was NO DQ because it was pointed safely, but the RO at the instant (with a USPSA pistol background) was all for the DQ. We all pointed out that his safety was on and his finger was straight when the "heads" got together; they had kurtm demonstrate that the rifle was safe: load it, shoot a few rounds into the berm, and unload (typical of a true slamfire in all cases I've seen, no damage to firearm); and then continue.

So.... maybe not DQ at outlaw matches depending on venue, but.....

Is an AR slam-fire after LAMR a DQ under USPSA rules?

ericm

[Sarge]

Not a 3 gunner here at all. But how in the world can a rifle that sends a round down range when you close the bolt ever be considered safe?

Besides the rules seem to support a DQ in sanctioned matches:

5.2.4 A shot which occurs while loading, preloading, reloading or unloading a firearm. This includes any shot

fired during the procedures outlined in Rule [3.3.1] and Rule [3.3.9].

[kurtm]

Well Sarge, If you do a bit of checking you will find that this has happened since the inception of the AR-15, and until the Military speced a "harder" primer they had this issue quite a bit, and still do......so what you are in fact saying is the service rifle that you were issued was in fact NOT SAFE!!.....Looks like rule #1 applies in spades.

[MarkCO]

Under the USPSA rules, yes, it is a DQ. Under IMGA rules, yes, it is a DQ.

I have, since the first time Tom Judd helped me build my first AR, known of the potential of which Kurt speaks. Kurt is certainly safe and knows his weapons well, so I would highly doubt he steppe to the line with a rifle he believed had the potential to slam fire. Maybe the rule is overly conservative.

Kurt, while I think I know which trigger you run, would you PM me which one it was just for my own knowledge.

[ericm]

As you know Mark, the trigger in an AR has nothing to do w/ a true slamfire. It has everything to do with bolt speed, firing pin mass and primer sensitivity.

This phenomenon is not limited to AR-15 type rifles, either. Some early SKS imports had slamfire issues w/ U.S. ammo.

The question of DQ or not for a slamfire WHICH CAN BE CAUSED BY A ROUND OF AMMUNITION (statistics here) AND NOT THE FIREARM PER SE is what I'm asking.

So....are USPSA rules mute about slamfire phenomena?

ericm

P.S.: to my knowledge, USPSA has addressed some esoteric firearms behavior in the past, such as detonation caused by UASC, usually .40 1911 style guns. (which I've also seen at matches)

Edited July 29, 2014 by ericm

[MarkCO]

Oh, I know Eric. There have been a few recently with one brand of trigger, enough that it seems to be off statistically to me.

I find no allowance for slam-fire in the current USPSA MG rules.

In 5.2.4, the word "shot" is used. It is defined in the rulebook as follows:

Shot A bullet which passes completely through the barrel of a firearm.

Edited July 29, 2014 by MarkCO

[ericm]

I may go back to what I used to do when charging my AR: From an open bolt, insert mag, retract charging handle and "ride" it (let it forward slowly to about the point the round is just going to pop out of the feed lips, and then release it. A couple of slight "press checks" to make sure it's seated and voila.

That's French.....

ericm

[MarkCO]

I hear French guns tend to have a lot of dirt on them.

[twodownzero]

Yes.

And if you use ONLY magnum primers, and fully seat them, in your AR as I have since I started handloading, you probably will never have one.

[ericm]

Statistically, you're just as well off with a rabbit's foot or lucky astrology mood ring....

You're right, of course: You will never have a slamfire with those extra carefully seated magnum small rifle primers.......

.....until you have a slamfire.

I had never had an issue in thousands of .22 rimfire with my AR-22 until a round stuck halfway into the chamber, detonated, and left a bullet halfway down the barrel.

.......must have been my sloppy .22 long rifle reloading technique........yeah, that's it.

ericm

[HRider]

I have had a few slam fires, but none of mine were from loading from bolt open. All of mine came while shooting. They were slam fires, not bump fires. All were in my Armalite AR10, several were on my first stage at the first Pro/Am (even hit a 100yd flasher with a double, almost made a spinner out of it). I had removed the firing pin spring from the firing pin two years before because JP yellow springs wouldn't ignite military primers 100%. I had tested several brands of ammo, comparing the unload and show clear primer divots with ones from the same ammo and the spring in place. I even dropped the bolt on the same round several times (checking for bullet setback in between) and never made one go off. After my slam fires during the stage, I was told to FIX IT. I put the firing pin spring back in and have had no problems since. I had just started using a different batch of Privi Partizan 147gr ball when the slam fires started, I suppose that the primers were just sensitive. I later changed to a Wilson Trigger, which has a stronger hammer spring and it has ignited everything so far. I looked for a titanium firing pin for the AR10, but never found anyone that made one.

I run a titanium firing pin in my JP, never had a slam fire with the steel firing pin in it, but some of the primers on unload and show clear rounds had some pretty big divots in them, so I switched to titanium for insurance.

Hurley

Edited due to spelling.

Edited July 29, 2014 by HRider

[kurtm]

All I use are J.P. triggers Mark...as you well know. And NO it has never been the trigger!

[ericm]

Perfect example, excellent diagnosis, and preferred solution!!!!

My JP LMOS guns have Ti firing pins, all other standard mass carrier and buffer AR's have steel pins.

This minimizes the occurances, I believe, but does not eliminate the possibility.

ericm

[MarkCO]

All I use are J.P. triggers Mark...as you well know. And NO it has never been the trigger!

What I thought, but figured I would check to be sure.

Ti firing pins in my JP carriers too.

[Religious Shooter]

I have had a few slam fires, but none of mine were from loading from bolt open. All of mine came while shooting. They were slam fires, not bump fires. All were in my Armalite AR10, several were on my first stage at the first Pro/Am (even hit a 100yd flasher with a double, almost made a spinner out of it). I had removed the firing pin spring from the firing pin two years before because JP yellow springs wouldn't ignite military primers 100%. I had tested several brands of ammo, comparing the unload and show clear primer divots with ones from the same ammo and the spring in place. I even dropped the bolt on the same round several times (checking for bullet setback in between) and never made one go off. After my slam fires during the stage, I was told to FIX IT. I put the firing pin spring back in and have had no problems since. I had just started using a different batch of Privi Partizan 147gr ball when the slam fires started, I suppose that the primers were just sensitive. I later changed to a Wilson Trigger, which has a stronger hammer spring and it has ignited everything so far. I looked for a titanium firing pin for the AR10, but never found anyone that made one.

I run a titanium firing pin in my JP, never had a slam fire with the steel firing pin in it, but some of the primers on unload and show clear rounds had some pretty big divots in them, so I switched to titanium for insurance.

Hurley

Edited due to spelling.

That's interesting. Your AR10 has firing pin springs?

[StealthyBlagga]

I may go back to what I used to do when charging my AR: From an open bolt, insert mag, retract charging handle and "ride" it (let it forward slowly to about the point the round is just going to pop out of the feed lips, and then release it. A couple of slight "press checks" to make sure it's seated and voila.

Although it may not be fashionable to say it, this is another good reason to have a forward assist.

...My JP LMOS guns have Ti firing pins, all other standard mass carrier and buffer AR's have steel pins.... This minimizes the occurances, I believe, but does not eliminate the possibility...

I agree and likewise run Ti pins in my low mass BCGs. I suspect it is the combination of the heavier mass of the steel pins coupled with the higher closing speed of the low mass FCG that increases the chances of a slamfire.

[Sarge]

Well Sarge, If you do a bit of checking you will find that this has happened since the inception of the AR-15, and until the Military speced a "harder" primer they had this issue quite a bit, and still do......so what you are in fact saying is the service rifle that you were issued was in fact NOT SAFE!!.....Looks like rule #1 applies in spades.

I accept that. But it's kind of hard to DQ a grunt in a foxhole. Sure they were unsafe. No argument there. But so is any gun that does it was my only comment.

Edit to add that I didn't build my rifles in the army, Uncle Sam provided them. And as you may also know I couldn't refuse to shoot them because I thought they were unsafe

Edited July 29, 2014 by Sarge

[kurtm]

Sarge...AGREED, I was only pointing out that because this does happen we need to be pointing it is a real safe direction when we drop the bolt! like pointing into the edge of our foxhole.

[silver star]

Well damn, just when I thought I had everything just right for my trip to Finland.

I have impressive dimples on my unfired primers when given the command to UASC, unload and show clear.

I have never experienced a slam fire which means I am due.

Also...I don't want to experience an international DQ.

So what was the USPSA answer to the slam fire question at LAMR?

Do I need an AR firing pin spring?

JUST KIDDING!!!!

Edit;

after re-reading the thread it looks like Mark answered it with the word "shot" in 5.2.4.

Edited July 29, 2014 by silver star

[Sarge]

like pointing into the edge of our foxhole.

[kurtm]

Well I know.... but better the edge of the fox hole than our friendly E7's back plate!

Mr. Star...or should I say Mr. "Silver" Star....order a Ti pin from Brownells, If they are out of stock, I'll give you one when I get back around the 13th so you will have plenty of time to test it out!

Edited July 29, 2014 by kurtm

[silver star]

Thanks,

I guess I will contact Brownells.

I had 1/2 a grocery sack of brass with your name on it but Javier had some cold beer and...well.

If I DQ at Nordic I will have to see if I can find some pontikka.

That's Finnish.......

[bigbrowndog]

Yes, Religious Shooter, some AR10 patterns utilize a firing pin spring, (SR25 pattern).

ericm, the only time I've had a slamfire was with a JP aluminum bcg, also ripped out a few bursts at the pull of the trigger........and a Ti firing pin solved that issue.

But, I think maybe I will drop a Ti firing pin in my Finland gun just for piece of mind!!!!

trapr

Edited July 29, 2014 by bigbrowndog

[MarkCO]

Brownells has two brands in stock.

[logiztix]

I have had a few slam fires, but none of mine were from loading from bolt open. All of mine came while shooting. They were slam fires, not bump fires. All were in my Armalite AR10, several were on my first stage at the first Pro/Am (even hit a 100yd flasher with a double, almost made a spinner out of it). I had removed the firing pin spring from the firing pin two years before because JP yellow springs wouldn't ignite military primers 100%. I had tested several brands of ammo, comparing the unload and show clear primer divots with ones from the same ammo and the spring in place. I even dropped the bolt on the same round several times (checking for bullet setback in between) and never made one go off. After my slam fires during the stage, I was told to FIX IT. I put the firing pin spring back in and have had no problems since. I had just started using a different batch of Privi Partizan 147gr ball when the slam fires started, I suppose that the primers were just sensitive. I later changed to a Wilson Trigger, which has a stronger hammer spring and it has ignited everything so far. I looked for a titanium firing pin for the AR10, but never found anyone that made one.

I run a titanium firing pin in my JP, never had a slam fire with the steel firing pin in it, but some of the primers on unload and show clear rounds had some pretty big divots in them, so I switched to titanium for insurance.

Hurley

Edited due to spelling.

That's interesting. Your AR10 has firing pin springs?

Armalite AR-10s indeed have firing pin springs. They have a very small one inside the end of the bolt. My AR-10 doesn't like some of the harder primers in combination with the Timney trigger I have installed. I can't use Magpul's .308 mags, but I do get a firing pin spring.