No Ammo In Safe Area?

[56hawk]

So, what should you do if you do get a DQ for this? Luckily I only got warned when I did it, but it kind of took me by supprise since I thought the rules were pretty clear about ammo being allowed in the safe area.

[pjb45]

I use to teach windsurfing with a couple of lawyers. We were having conflict with the Corp of Engineers. The lawyers would emphasize the concept of reasonable man in our dealing with the CofE. Perhaps that concept is applicable.

Having written more than my fair share of state regulations, reviewed and commented on pending legislation I am cognizant that reality/life sometimes cannot be address in purely black and white edicts while ignoring the consequences or implications of such actions.

If in order to have a USPSA match at a private club or public range requires 'safety' considerations more conservative than USPSA, than so be it. Don't make a federal case out of it. You cannot grow the membership by de-cetifying clubs for trying to be safety oriented.

[Vlad]

So, what should you do if you do get a DQ for this? Luckily I only got warned when I did it, but it kind of took me by supprise since I thought the rules were pretty clear about ammo being allowed in the safe area.

It sounds to me like it worked out just fine. The MD/RO/etc where not dicks about it, realized you didn't know about their local rule (for whatever reason they might have it), informed you about it, and live moves on. Because most MDs are just not out to DQ people, you were not DQed and presumably neither would any other person.

And technically it wouldn't be a DQ, it would be a property owner or its proxy asking you to leave for breaking club rules. Being private property, you leave.

[remoandiris]

If in order to have a USPSA match at a private club or public range requires 'safety' considerations more conservative than USPSA, than so be it. Don't make a federal case out of it. You cannot grow the membership by de-cetifying clubs for trying to be safety oriented.

I hear what you're saying but here is the rub. When a club agrees to allow USPSA matches they agree to use USPSA rules. If not, it isn't a USPSA match. Or should 3.3 simply be ignored?

As for growing membership, 2 matches in Pa that are in the process of ending are due to lack of manpower, not safety.

[steel1212]

I have seen guys rooting around for tools in their shooting bag and move loaded magazines around. By rights that's a DQ.

what happened after you compelled these guys to turn themselves in to match staff?

don't know if they turned themselves in or not but I told them they were not allowed to handle ammo in a safety area. I did my part as I was just a shooter at the match. Had I been on staff at a match it would have been different.

oh, that's not quite the same thing you said here:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=196179&p=2175449

First, The guys I shoot with are mostly RO's as well. As soon as we heard the tear of velcro somebody would have stopped him from taking it off. Or at least tried to. If we didn't succeed in stopping him we would certainly compel him to report himself to match staff.

so...

by telling him it was wrong didn't I compel him to do something? I put the onus on him. He either ignored it or turned himself in. I can't make anyone do anything as a shooter.

no. compel does not mean discuss, it means force.

so in the prior thread you said you would have forced the shooter to turn himself in to match staff. in this thread you said you merely mentioned to the shooter that he broke a rule.

i'm simply pointing out the inconsistency of what you said you would do in a hypothetical situation, and what you actually did do in a real situation.

Think about that for a second. I, not as a match official, see a guy playing with ammo in the safe area. I got tell a match official but said bad person has already left. Match official did not see anything. You can't DQ a person if the RO, match official, didn't see them do it so how would this be any different. If you told bad person that playing with ammo in the safe area is a DQ-able offense, if your not a match official I don't see how anything can come of it.

Regardless of all that, did you really just bring up old post to contradict somebody on a internet thread?

[Sarge]

I have seen guys rooting around for tools in their shooting bag and move loaded magazines around. By rights that's a DQ.

what happened after you compelled these guys to turn themselves in to match staff?

don't know if they turned themselves in or not but I told them they were not allowed to handle ammo in a safety area. I did my part as I was just a shooter at the match. Had I been on staff at a match it would have been different.

oh, that's not quite the same thing you said here:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=196179&p=2175449

First, The guys I shoot with are mostly RO's as well. As soon as we heard the tear of velcro somebody would have stopped him from taking it off. Or at least tried to. If we didn't succeed in stopping him we would certainly compel him to report himself to match staff.

so...

by telling him it was wrong didn't I compel him to do something? I put the onus on him. He either ignored it or turned himself in. I can't make anyone do anything as a shooter.

no. compel does not mean discuss, it means force.

so in the prior thread you said you would have forced the shooter to turn himself in to match staff. in this thread you said you merely mentioned to the shooter that he broke a rule.

i'm simply pointing out the inconsistency of what you said you would do in a hypothetical situation, and what you actually did do in a real situation.

Regardless of all that, did you really just bring up old post to contradict somebody on a internet thread?

Pretty much what it seemed like so I moved on to other things such as actually putting on a match for others to enjoy!

BUT:

constrain, oblige, coerce. Compel, impel agree in the idea of using physical or other force to causesomething to be done. Compel means to constrain someone, in some way, to yield or to do what onewishes: to compel a recalcitrant debtor to pay; Fate compels us to face danger and trouble. Impel may meanliterally to push forward, but is usually applied figuratively, meaning to provide a strong motive or incentivetoward a certain end: Wind impels a ship. Curiosity impels me to ask. 3. overpower, bend.

It's not as simple as "Compel means to force"

[wgnoyes]

Jesus! Quotes nested 8 levels deep! Pare it down some folks when you reply to a quote.

[Sarge]

Jesus! Quotes nested 8 levels deep! Pare it down some folks when you reply to a quote.

Never bothered to figure out how to do that. Every time I try something like that it's a huge fail. I have seen them a lot longer than this though.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Sarge

[twodownzero]

Nothing wrong with being overly cautious.

Their club, their rules, even if they are stricter than USPSA's rules.

Absolutely not. This activity should be reported to your section coordinator immediately.

They can have stricter rules. They just have to be treated as suggestions. They cannot issue a DQ for breaking them.

This.

I'll bet you that if REALLY enforced 3.3 you'd have a heck of a lot fewer USPSA clubs.

That's fine with me. Don't want to follow USPSA rules? Then you don't get to put on an USPSA match--period.

Don't forget that the hosting property owner can have rules beyond those of USPSA. If you lost club affiliation over that, I have to wonder what your section and area director are thinking. Things like muzzle over the berm are actually kinda even hard to enforce, but leaving your ammo 5ft behind is not some massive hardship, is it?

Section and area folks were heavily involved in trying to work out a solution. In the end the club lost. I'd have quit it entirely over this, but the next closest range is an additional hour away. They have a monthly action pistol uspsa style match, but the attendance is way down. There are plenty of other places to shoot uspsa in our area. It's really sad because it is a great range, and it didn't need to go down the way it did. Since then the range bod has had some more shooter friendly folks elected, and we are hopeful the situation can be reversed.

Vlad, no club can make or impose rules other than with the approval that you will not get from the BOD.

fishsticks,

I am glad to hear that you are engaging in the proper solution to this problem. If your club's board can't handle our rules, then it ought not have our matches.

This is not a strong arm tactic. It is the way we protect the competitive equity of our sport.

[Chuck Anderson]

Well as AD I've worked with three different clubs that tried passing local rules. With two of them we came up with solutions that passed muster with both the club and USPSA rules. With the third they dug their heels in and decided they'd pass a rule. As a result they lost the USPSA club, attendance dropped dramatically, people think the range is a joke, they didn't fix anything since they just had to close a range this month, and the club is in even more potential liability. But I can guarantee I did everything I could as an AD and a member of the club to keep it shooting USPSA. When they decided that their promise to follow USPSA rules was one they couldn't abide we left.

[Vlad]

I find it amusing that USPSA thinks they are in chargeof anything and that they are doing people a favor by gracing them with their rules. It has always been fascinating to me that an organization that has no land of its own, and no ranges of its own, thinks that its rules superceed those of land owners who allow USPSA matches to happen.

Chuck if my club kicked out USPSA, no one there would notice the difference, except more pits would be available to the portion of the 3000+ members trying to use the place every weekend. Maybe small clubs in low population areas depend in USPSA for clout and shooters, where I live, people gladly pay $400 per year memberships just to have a place to shoot.

Whenever I deal with USPSA I'm always surprised how provincial and small minded some of the rules can be, and then I remember why I avoid like the dickens any interactions with USPSA.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Vlad

[retarmyaviator]

Pretty sure USPSA would not miss your club either, far to many others that support the organization to worry about just one.

I find it amusing that USPSA thinks they are in chargeof anything and that they are doing people a favor by gracing them with their rules. It has always been fascinating to me that an organization that has no land of its own, and no ranges of its own, thinks that its rules superceed those of land owners who allow USPSA matches to happen.

Chuck if my club kicked out USPSA, no one there would notice the difference, except more pits would be available to the portion of the 3000+ members trying to use the place every weekend. Maybe small clubs in low population areas depend in USPSA for clout and shooters, where I live, people gladly pay $400 per year memberships just to have a place to shoot.

Whenever I deal with USPSA I'm always surprised how provincial and small minded some of the rules can be, and then I remember why I avoid like the dickens any interactions with USPSA.

Edited June 24, 2014 by retarmyaviator

[Sarge]

Mam vlad, you have got it bad huh? You are seriously anti USPSA. I couldn't be a part of shooting at all if I were that much against the sport, let alone an MD.

I don't think USPSA thinks they are in charge of anything. They did however make certain arrangements with clubs in order to have sanctioned matches. Both parties knew what was involved when they entered into the agreement. Trying to change it later by either party should not fly and the other party should stand firm. What if USPSA made a new rule that said we no longer unloaded guns between stages and we all walked around with hot guns all day. Most shooting ranges are cold ranges and a change like that would result in USPSA getting the boot, and rightly so.

I think USPSA has every right to stand their ground with a club that wants to alter the agreement they initially signed off on.

[Vlad]

Sarge, I'm not anti USPSA, I am anti the delusion that somehow USPSA has gotten that it is that important.

For example USPSA signed NO agreement with the club where I run a match. USPSA made no agreements what so ever with the club, etc. All of that was done by local volunteers, and there are no written agreements, no formal contracts, etc. Further, any such agreements were done 20 years ago by people who are no longer running the match and people who are no longer on the club board. What value do you think that agreement holds?

Where is that agreement they signed off on? Heck, I'm not really even sure where USPSA is right now, as I don't think we've seen our area director in this state in over 2 years. In the meanwhile I've seen two major clubs in my section punch out of USPSA. We are seeing 2 clubs stopping this year in the next state over. I think we went from a top of 5 matches in the state at one point down to 3.

Pretty sure USPSA would not miss your club either, far to many others that support the organization to worry about just one.

Thats nice, so it you suggestion that a club and MDs who have run a match according to all USPSA rules, over the years hosted a few major matches, payed tenths of thouthands of dollars to USPSA for the right to working for free for the organization, that is one of the only 3 matches in the state wouldn't be missed because I happen to disagree with USPSA on a rule that affects the competiton not at all?

Wow, on this week of all weeks, when USPSA has egg all over this face from major cheating scandals, you come up with that notion?

Hey Sarge, this is what I'm against, not against USPSA. I'm against the notion of entitlement that USPSA has been creating recently. Something about this thread bothered me from earlier on, and I just got my finger on it. Someone earlier worried "what if I go to this mythical club I've never been to before and gear up before the shooter meeting"... You know .. Maybe the first time you visit a club you never shot at before, you should show up early, introduce yourself to the MD and ask if you can help, before worrying about getting geared up.

Instead it seems to me we have an increasing culture "customer shooters".

Edited June 24, 2014 by Vlad

[Sarge]

Instead it seems to me we have an increasing culture "customer shooters".

And THAT I will never argue. I think I could out right pay some shooters to come out and help set up and they wouldn't do it. From what I see many shooters look at coming to a match the same as going to the grocery store. They pay their money, get what they want and leave. Thank god I have had some great help this year and I pray it continues!

[motosapiens]

It seems reasonable to me that a competition organization should have competition rules that are consistent from place to place. The muzzle-over-the-berm-reload is an entirely different animal than ammo in the safe area. One is part of the course of fire and definiitely affects competitive equity. The other is simple housekeeping, like where to park.

[whitedog]

Vlad...in a way I agree with you. I have never got an understandable response from any one I have e mailed at USPSA. Amidon came close on a rule question once though...

That said. If an org is nationwide it is reasonable to think the rules would be the same across the board. If a local has a rule, let people know that. Don't DQ for something the shooter could not know before hand. Also, it would not be a DQ. It would be failure to finish. Due to not being able to shoot any more. You can only DQ under a USPSA rule.

[Vlad]

I agree, I wouldn't call it a DQ either, I would call it "sorry, you can't shoot here", but the result is indistinguishable. And obviously anyone doing that to someone who simply didn't know would be colossal asshat.

[whitedog]

Asshat.....bringing back the classics. ?

Agreed.

[Chuck Anderson]

Wow, that's a whole lot of information that I have a really hard time believing. Not saying you haven't seen your AD in two years, but he did live in that state so I'm betting he was probably somewhere in the state. Each time the club rep (and I'm surprised that isn't you) signs the reafilliation form it says right on there that the club agrees to abide by USPSA rules. Who handles your reaffiliation each year? Who signs the form? If it's someone who doesn't have the authority to speak for the club, well that's another matter. Is it a legally binding contract, of course not. There is no countersignature, it's not notarized, but it is an agreement that all clubs will run under the same rules. I fully understand there may be some clubs that can't comply. I'm not saying we have any ability to force them to hold USPSA matches. But I've also been around long enough to appreciate that when I go to a USPSA match, I'll be shooting a USPSA match. And all the rules apply, not just the ones that are convenient. If you want to claim to be a national organization at some point you have to draw a line that says this is what qualifies as a match under our rules. If the club can't comply they can't shoot USPSA. Sucks but what rules would you be OK with allowing the club to make? Since I've been AD, I've had clubs try to ban the muzzle over the berm, double tapping steel targets, moving with the gun in hand, drawing from the holster and limiting the 180 to about 50 degrees. In each case I was able to work with the venue to to come up with ways of doing business that would resolve the issue without violating USPSA rules. Except the muzzle over the berm. We came up with ways, they just didn't care.

The double tapping steel, the concern was bullets leaving the range as the steel was falling. Worked on course design and placement of steel near the berm, use of plates instead of poppers and FFP for activators instead of RFP. Through course design, not rules the risk was mitigated. The limiting on the 180 was an indoor range. Again, worked with course design to prevent any reasonable engagement into the walls. Drawing from the holster, they could use table starts if they really needed and movement with the gun could be addressed by stand and shoot only courses. Would the last two be boring as heck? Yep, but they'd be legal by the rules. Fortunately the clubs in the last two examples decided to allow the matches to continue without the work arounds.

If you're not getting an answer from your AD on something like that email me and I'll see if I can help. Even when I'm not an AD, I still would rather try to work with the range rather than be a jerk about it. For most issues there is a way to work within the rules and keep everything on track.

[whitedog]

Well said. Thank you.

[Vlad]

Wow, that's a whole lot of information that I have a really hard time believing. Not saying you haven't seen your AD in two years, but he did live in that state so I'm betting he was probably somewhere in the state.

Chuck, don't take my word for it, you go right ahead and pull classifier records, we shoot at least one every month at every club in NJ. Also our match results are on our websites going back for many years. I know the last time I saw Harry in an official capacity was in July 2012 when he helped RO the Section Match we put on. Now, I'm not mad at the man, I know he had some life events, so it is what it is. I'll give the current area director a pass as well, its only been 6 months. However, all that doesn't change the fact I stated. Easy enough to check, right?

Each time the club rep (and I'm surprised that isn't you) signs the reafilliation form it says right on there that the club agrees to abide by USPSA rules. Who handles your reaffiliation each year? Who signs the form? If it's someone who doesn't have the authority to speak for the club, well that's another matter.

I sign it. Do I have the right to talk for the club? I have no idea, I'm their official "league chairman" for something they spell "IPSIC" so you tell me, you guys keep sending papers to my house so I guess I am. Or I should say you used to until that changed to electronic with very little warning.

Since I've been AD, I've had clubs try to ban the muzzle over the berm, double tapping steel targets, moving with the gun in hand, drawing from the holster and limiting the 180 to about 50 degrees.

And you know, I'd agree with you if that was the question. Every one of those things you listed are radically game changing things. They are fundamental to how our game works. They affect directly the scores we care about. Ammo on the belt when walking at safe area? Not so much. Are you, as BoD member saying that you would rather a club not host a USPSA branded match over an issue of this scale, assuming the process was handled rationally (people being properly informed, warnings if the were not aware, etc, ie: not implemented by idiots)?

If you're not getting an answer from your AD on something like that email me and I'll see if I can help. Even when I'm not an AD, I still would rather try to work with the range rather than be a jerk about it. For most issues there is a way to work within the rules and keep everything on track.

I don't really have any issues to work out, and never really have. When I have problems with my hosting club I work on them, and frankly if I can't solve them, my AD will have zero influence in the process. The BoD of my hosting club couldn't care less what USPSA wants, if I can't convince them, neither will USPSA. The only time I've needed to get my AD involved was when I needed someone banned from the range and I got the support I needed. The was the last time I've need something from USPSA, and it was in .. 2007? I've been dutifully sending in my checks though, just in case.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Vlad

[alma]

This post will likely be torn apart as others here have been but I wanted to mention that I have shot at a lot of clubs with particular restrictions but most of the time those can be accumulated through tailored stage design.

[Vlad]

This post will likely be torn apart as others here have been but I wanted to mention that I have shot at a lot of clubs with particular restrictions but most of the time those can be accumulated through tailored stage design.

I agree completely, and also most of these limitations are artificial and pointless. However the ammo at the safe table one isn't something you can solve with course design,

[Chuck Anderson]

Actually had an RO try to DQ me for that at a match in Texas I flew to. Was checking my scope in the safe area. He came up and started tugging on my magazine in the pouch. Told me I could be DQ'd for having ammo in the safe area. I told him the rule was against handling ammo in the safe area, which he was doing and could be DQ'd for. Short discussion which ended up with me not getting DQ'd (till the next day). Admittedly this was a three gun match and I really have no idea what the rules were.

To your question though about whether or not I'd want a range hosting a USPSA branded match that didn't adhere to the rules entirely . Even over something you consider minor. Short answer is no. I don't want them hosting a USPSAish match. The rules are the rules. And I have a reason for that. USPSA bases it's safety record on each club following the same rules. I can go to a club and say every other club in the country is following these exact rules and USPSA does have an enviable safety record. I can tell new clubs the reason they should follow our rules is that they've been vetted and used by thousands of competitors every weekend and we know they work. If one club starts doing things, to be more safe, or because they have "x" issue, that argument goes away. So for the benefit of all clubs, I'd rather lose one. Personal opinion and I've argued the point before with people I really respect. I don't think it's a perfect solution but it's the best I can come up with.

Let me turn it a bit. Would you agree with a club having a local rule that you found less safe? When I started at my local club we bagged and holstered in the parking lot at the trunk. Club was fine with it and said it was legal. When someone first raised the issue about it being against the rules it was a big deal. The MD said they played by big boy rules or something to that effect and if they didn't like it they could leave. I was still just a newbie at this point. Not even sure I'd read the rule book at that point to know what I didn't know. Once they started playing by the actual rules the club got much bigger. When they moved away from that participation dwindled. It's about a third what it used to be now that it is not a sanctioned match anymore. You say you've never received anything from USPSA for your monthly check. I think there are an awful lot of people that participate in USPSA because its USPSA and it's a known quantity. You might put on the same match you do now without USPSA. You might have just as many people come, but I doubt it. I know personally I rarely shoot matches that aren't affiliated with something. Just got tired of MD's and RM's making up rules as they go. I also got tired of having guns pointed at me and having the MD give the guy stage DQ's (note that's plural in the same match) but let him keep shooting, but that was a different sport.