DQ Question

[Big Guy]

During a course of fire, the shooter engages an target without a mag inserted in the gun. Not due to mishandling, but on purpose.

Is this a DQ?

[GrumpyOne]

How would that be a DQ? Shooter is allowed to complete the course however they see fit (unless WSB says differently)....

the other question is....why did they engage a target with no mag? Last target they were going to have an FTE and they point at the target and pull the trigger?

[ktm300]

During a course of fire, the shooter engages an target without a mag inserted in the gun. Not due to mishandling, but on purpose.

Is this a DQ?

No. Seen it a lot of times when someone goes to ULSC and sees 1 hole in a target.

[sfchorn]

I think we need more information.

If the shot was after "If finished, unload and show clear" was given, and the competitor dropped his mag, noticed a target not engaged, and put one round into it to save 20 points, no problem. Almost certainly not worth the time, but that is a decision up to the competitor.

If it happened during a mag change, and (despite the shocked look on his face when the gun went off) the competitor claimed it was intentional, I'd drop the BS flag and the big DQ bomb.

[bikerburgess]

If you mean he has removed the magazine then shot the round in the chamber at a target? No not a DQ see it many times they go to ULSC and notice a mike or a un-enguaged target and shoot the one in the chamber at it. about the only way I can see this being a issue would be if they were still in the process of either removing or inserting the magazine, then you run into 10.5.9 (finger out of trigger while reloading) but I believe they would have to be actually removing or inserting the mag at the time of the shot.

[Big Guy]

To further clarify, mag removed and shot the round in the chamber. Also, it occured during the middle of the COF (i.e., additional targets remaining, not after ULSC).

My intial position was no DQ, however, after reading the rules, I reconsidered and believe it should be a DQ. The shot was during the process of loading, as there was a need to insert another mag to finish the COF.

8.4.1 When loading, reloading or unloading during a course of fire, the competitor’s fingers must be visibly outside the trigger guard and the handgun must be pointed safely down range or in another safe direction authorized by a Range Officer (see Section 10.5).

Under 10.4.3 a DQ should apply:

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7.

[Sarge]

Not a DQ as long as he intended for the gun to fire at a target

[chalkdust21]

I would say the competitor stopped the reloading sequence and then safely engaged a target. No DQ would apply if it was an intended shot.

The reloading sequence would begin again after the shot was fired.

[vluc]

To further clarify, mag removed and shot the round in the chamber. Also, it occured during the middle of the COF (i.e., additional targets remaining, not after ULSC).

My intial position was no DQ, however, after reading the rules, I reconsidered and believe it should be a DQ. The shot was during the process of loading, as there was a need to insert another mag to finish the COF.

8.4.1 When loading, reloading or unloading during a course of fire, the competitor’s fingers must be visibly outside the trigger guard and the handgun must be pointed safely down range or in another safe direction authorized by a Range Officer (see Section 10.5).

Under 10.4.3 a DQ should apply:

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7.

just because there was a need to reload does not mean the process of reloading had begun.

[Vlad]

I think if you follow the rule book as the word of the prophet you are correct, you can read this as a DQ, however we need to insert sanity and logic here. If the shooter made an intentional shot at a target the obviously this is fine, the rule is clearly meant to avoid ADs and NDs, not intentional discharges at a valid target.

[remoandiris]

+1 on what Vlad said.

In a VERY strict reading of the rules, when does the reload process start? If you believe it STARTS when the mag is dropped, the glossary states when the reload is finished. But I do not believe the very strict reading is what USPSA means by DQing under 10.5.9 and I certainly wouldn't call a DQ based on the OP. It was a deliberately aimed shot with no mag in the gun. That is far different than an AD during a reload under 10.4.3.

[Big Guy]

"Prophet" interpretation of the USPSA rules versus a "user-friendly" interpretation.... This this could create some issues.

I believe the unloading process starts once you press the mag release. The reloading process is complete once the mag is inserted.

Note that 10.4 defines an "accidental discharge" as: (10.4.3) "A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun". The presented language does reference whether the shot was fired under the shooter's control or not.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Big Guy

[ChuckS]

This is the definition of unloading from the glossary:

"Unloading ....................... The removal of ammunition from a firearm. This action is completed when the firearm is empty of all ammunition and the magazine removed or cylinder opened and shown for inspection by a Range Officer."

This would mean the response to IYAFUASC. Since the event happened in the middle of a COF, unloading does not apply.

Here are the definitions of loading and reloading:

"Loading ............................The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire.

"Reloading .........................The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. The reload is not complete until the magazine/speed loader is fully inserted and the firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire)."

Both of those events are the insertion of ammunition into the firearm. Dropping the mag is not mentioned. If he took a legal shot, he is good to go and should probably begin to load/reload.

[MarkCO]

I would say the competitor stopped the reloading sequence and then safely engaged a target. No DQ would apply if it was an intended shot.

The reloading sequence would begin again after the shot was fired.

This would be my answer as well.

[Big Guy]

OK. I guess my initial assessment was correct. Need to go and collect some beer!!!

[Nik Habicht]

OK. I guess my initial assessment was correct. Need to go and collect some beer!!!

Ask yourself this question too:

How is the shot you described different from someone barney loading the chamber, and then forgetting to insert a full mag into the gun? In that scenario they could well fire one round at the beep, and then need to execute an unplanned reload. That doesn't make the shot potentially unsafe.....