CZ Shadow upper NOT Production legal on SP01 frame

[kneelingatlas]

Below are direct quotes from an email conversation with John Amidon, USPSA Vice President/NROI Director, for your information:

kneelingatlas:

Mr. Amidon,

CZ Custom sells complete Shadow uppers (http://czcustom.com/cz75shadow9mmtopend.aspx) is this upper installed on my SP01 USPSA Production Legal?

Thank you

John Amidon:

The rules state that you can replace the barrel and slide with aftermarket as long as they are the same caliber, contour and size, it however, also states that Removing or disabling firing-pin blocks or any other factory safety mechanism in Production division is specifically prohibited. Also, (8.1.2.4). It is the competitors responsibility to be able to demonstrate at any time that all factory safety mechanisms are functional, regardless of whether they are internal or external.

Short answer would be no, it is not legal in Production as it removes or disables one of the factory safties.

kneelingatlas:

Good afternoon John,

I really hate to be a pest, but I posted you response to my question regarding a Shadow slide on a SP01 frame and another forum member forwarded me an email he received from you in January which appears to call it a legal configuration; have you changed your mind on this matter? I, as well as many others who bought Shadow slides from CZC for this very purpose, would really appreciate clarification.

Thank you

Mr. Amidon,

The issue of swapping a slide from a Smith and Wesson M&P core with the slide from a Pro / L model has recently come up.

Assuming that the slides are from guns of the same length and caliber, wouldn't the pro and core slides still be of a different contour and due to the cutout in the core slide for optics? This would seem to be against the production rules according to Appendix D4 21.3.

Thank you

As the CORE is not an approved model and the Pro / L is, he would be changing slides with an approved model providing it meets the caliber which it does, and the length.

John

Would this hold true for other guns, say a cz sp-01 and a sp-01 shadow? They are both approved guns for production, and the slides are the same length , profile, and caliber.

Essentially is a factory slide treated like any other factory part that may be used if it is available on an approved model?

Thanks

Yes, as long as it meets the division criteria.

John

John Amidon:

The rules stipulate you can replace slides with either factory or aftermarket as long as they are of the same length, contour and caliber. The rules also state that Removing or disabling firing-pin blocks or any other factory safety mechanism in Production division is specifically prohibited. The question he asked was it possible to replace the slide of the SP-o1 with an SP-Shadow, both are on the approved list, as I stated in my reply as long as it meets the division criteria, that would include the above of not removing or disabling firing-pin blocks, if switching the slides requires the removal of the firing pin block, then obviously it cannot be done per the rules. If he had stated at the time that it would be removing the firing pin block, then I would have told him no, it is up to him to comply with the rules, if only have questions are asked, then you get the answer you want, but that does not relieve you of following the rules.

John

kneelingatlas:

The firing pin block is a part of the slide assembly.

John Amidon:

Then the part about removing or disabling the firing-pin block not being allowed, should give the clear answer NO, it is not legal per appendix D4 item 22.

John

John Amidon:

Also, that is why I said in the answer, as long as it meets the criteria of the division. Obviously, it doesnt.

John

kneelingatlas:

Thank you for clearing that up John, if you don't mind I'd like to share your responses on the Brian Enos Forums.

John Amidon:

No problem.

John

I will now bite my tongue and continue to shoot Open

Edited June 1, 2014 by kneelingatlas

[spanky]

I agree with JA.

Edited June 1, 2014 by spanky

[Strick]

I was just asking this question yesterday. I don't agree with the response , you are not disabling anything since in the new slide there is nothing to disable......it simply is not there.

[DWFAN]

I was just asking this question yesterday. I don't agree with the response , you are not disabling anything since in the new slide there is nothing to disable......it simply is not there.

That would be my thought as well.

[CZinSC]

SP01 frame has a Firing Pin Block lifter arm. Not 100% sure you can leave it in with the Shadow slide. Pretty sure you have to remove it, otherwise trigger won't trip the sear. I could be wrong on that.

If you can leave the FPB lifter arm in and use the Shadow slide, you technically didn't disable the safety device in the frame. And the slide doesn't have a safety device, so you should be GTG. I'm sure the rules would say otherwise.

If you are required to remove the FPB lifter, than no, not legal. You are definitely removing a safety device which is aginst the rules. Doesn't matter that it isn't being used, if you remove it, you're breaking the rules.

I don't like it either way. You should be able to swap slides. I myself have an SP01 with a new slide on it. The original one had the front sheared off and CZ replaced the slide. So my frame and slide serial numbers don't match. It's legal to use in Production. Now what if I had gotten a Shadow slide. Removed the FPB lifter arm and called it good? The frame and slide serial numbers still wouldn't match, but how would you know that what i have is not production legal?

Just seems like a dumb rule.

Edited June 3, 2014 by CZinSC

[sfinney]

This is why when everyone goes "ask Amidon" I just chuckle.

No disrespect to the man, but how many people are running around out there with conflicting emails on various issues? Good luck with that.

[kneelingatlas]

CZinSC,

The Shadow slide will not go on with the lifter arm in place, you can tell it's not a factory gun because it says "Shadow" not "SP-01 Shadow" and yes, it's a stupid and difficult to enforce rule which rewards cheaters and penalizes honest shooters.

[Nik Habicht]

SP01 frame has a Firing Pin Block lifter arm. Not 100% sure you can leave it in with the Shadow slide. Pretty sure you have to remove it, otherwise trigger won't trip the sear. I could be wrong on that.

If you can leave the FPB lifter arm in and use the Shadow slide, you technically didn't disable the safety device in the frame. And the slide doesn't have a safety device, so you should be GTG. I'm sure the rules would say otherwise.

If you are required to remove the FPB lifter, than no, not legal. You are definitely removing a safety device which is aginst the rules. Doesn't matter that it isn't being used, if you remove it, you're breaking the rules.

I don't like it either way. You should be able to swap slides. I myself have an SP01 with a new slide on it. The original one had the front sheared off and CZ replaced the slide. So my frame and slide serial numbers don't match. It's legal to use in Production. Now what if I had gotten a Shadow slide. Removed the FPB lifter arm and called it good? The frame and slide serial numbers still wouldn't match, but how would you know that what i have is not production legal?

Just seems like a dumb rule.

You can swap slides. If however, in order to do that you need to remove a safety that is standard for the model of gun you're swapping (determined by frame), then the swap's not ok......

And we just might have some CZ savvy folks working chrono -- who would figure that out.....

[Vlad]

I'll make it worse ... The safety is not the little arm, that arm deactivates the safety. The safety is the firing block plunger itself that is contained in the slide, that's what makes the gun "safe" from discharging when dropped.

Also, never ask Amidon anything. Years back I got contradictory answers in the same email, never mind two different people with the same question so I just stopped.

[spanky]

I was just asking this question yesterday. I don't agree with the response , you are not disabling anything since in the new slide there is nothing to disable......it simply is not there.

Exactly. And it is there on the non-Shadow SP01. You're not "disabling" it so much as removing it. Still not legal.

Edited June 4, 2014 by spanky

[Nik Habicht]

Firearm model is determined by frame. If the model has a safety you may not disable it. What's so hard to understand?

[Strick]

Firearm model is determined by frame. If the model has a safety you may not disable it. What's so hard to understand?

The frame does not have a FPB since there is not firing pin in a frame.

[CZinSC]

Firearm model is determined by frame. If the model has a safety you may not disable it. What's so hard to understand?

The frame does not have a FPB since there is not firing pin in a frame.

True, but the SP01 frame has a Firing Pin Block Lifter arm that must be disabled in order to put a Shadow slide on top. Therefore, you are in fact removing a safety device. You can get all into semantics about what they mean by safety device, but IMO the FPB lifter arm is part of the safety device, so if you disable it, it's against the rules.

Again, i think that aspect of the rule is foolish, but that is how i interpret it.

[fishsticks]

I get that this isn't legal.

But, as a production shooter, it still baffles me. For the most part, the production rules are written to prevent gaining competitive advantage. In this case, no advantage would be gained. Same as shooting a conversion barrel in a glock. Not legal, but nonsensical as no competitive advantage.

/thread drift

[alma]

I get that this isn't legal.

But, as a production shooter, it still baffles me. For the most part, the production rules are written to prevent gaining competitive advantage. In this case, no advantage would be gained. Same as shooting a conversion barrel in a glock. Not legal, but nonsensical as no competitive advantage.

/thread drift

I think that example of being illegal makes more sense because the barrel would be quite a bit thicker and the gun would be more heavy (of course we do that the 2 oz rule that might catch this anyway).

The fact that you can have two guns that are exactly identical (not just functionally) where one is approved and one is not is what really baffles me. Oh where, oh where is the rules is an allowance for common sense?

[spanky]

I get that this isn't legal.

But, as a production shooter, it still baffles me. For the most part, the production rules are written to prevent gaining competitive advantage. In this case, no advantage would be gained. Same as shooting a conversion barrel in a glock. Not legal, but nonsensical as no competitive advantage.

/thread drift

Not quite the same but along the same lines, it's not legal to put a G34 slide on a G17 frame and shoot it in Production.

[alma]

Is there any chance that a modification to the Production rules can be made to allow modification from one legal Production gun to another legal Production gun?

It makes no sense that a G17 is legal and a G34 is legal but put a G34 slide on a G17 is not legal even though it's identical to the G34. It doesn't help that most of these currently illegal mods are not something that can be discovered at the chronograph stage.

[kneelingatlas]

I like your thinking Alma, what about: it fits in the box, no comp, no dot, no thumbrest, no racker, no magwell striker fired/selective fire and you're good to go?

[alma]

KA, that sounds way to easy. I was just hoping that however the gun starts, if it ends up being identical to a legal Production gun then it should be legal.

I am thinking a lot of the SP01 non Shadow, that could never be a legal SP01 Shadow, that could never be a legal SP01 ACCU Shadow even though it's the same frame for all 3. You should be able to modify each of these guns to the next level rather than having to buy the new one that happened to have the same mods done by the same shop but prior to you buying it.

Edited June 5, 2014 by alma

[SDchillin]

KA, that sounds way to easy. I was just hoping that however the gun starts, if it ends up being identical to a legal Production gun then it should be legal.

I am thinking a lot of the SP01 non Shadow, that could never be a legal SP01 Shadow, that could never be a legal SP01 ACCU Shadow even though it's the same frame for all 3. You should be able to modify each of these guns to the next level rather than having to buy the new one that happened to have the same mods done by the same shop but prior to you buying it.

kneelingatlas and alma are onto something here!

Not only does this rule eliminate the option of incrementally increasing the performance/level of the gun as opposed to purchasing it how you want it outright... it disallows people in restricted states (i.e. California) from assembling firearms identical to their legal counterparts available for purchase by out-of-state competitors (i.e. SP-01 vs. SP-01 Shadow). Obviously the one viable option to get around this would be SSE, but is it really ok to force those of us living in restricted states to pay the premium and invest the additonal time required by a SSE transfer? If I travel from CA to a less restricted state to shoot a match with my SP-01, I am required to use my slide with the firing pin block installed as opposed to a Shadow upper which would likely be available to the majority of in-state competitors at the match? Limiting any competitor's ability to attain (or at the very least replicate) what is being used by other competitors in the same class does not sit well with me.

I think the USPSA officials as well as the community as a whole need to take a step back and focus on the intent of the rules, not so much the black letter law. While there is an advantage to using a Shadow slide on a stock frame as compared to the stock slide (with FPB), it does not exceed the performance offered by the production legal Shadow models which are available to competitors in the majority of states...

Just my .02

[mpolans]

I was just asking this question yesterday. I don't agree with the response , you are not disabling anything since in the new slide there is nothing to disable......it simply is not there.

I agree. Edited June 14, 2014 by mpolans

[trgt]

KA, that sounds way to easy. I was just hoping that however the gun starts, if it ends up being identical to a legal Production gun then it should be legal.

I am thinking a lot of the SP01 non Shadow, that could never be a legal SP01 Shadow, that could never be a legal SP01 ACCU Shadow even though it's the same frame for all 3. You should be able to modify each of these guns to the next level rather than having to buy the new one that happened to have the same mods done by the same shop but prior to you buying it.

kneelingatlas and alma are onto something here!

Not only does this rule eliminate the option of incrementally increasing the performance/level of the gun as opposed to purchasing it how you want it outright... it disallows people in restricted states (i.e. California) from assembling firearms identical to their legal counterparts available for purchase by out-of-state competitors (i.e. SP-01 vs. SP-01 Shadow). Obviously the one viable option to get around this would be SSE, but is it really ok to force those of us living in restricted states to pay the premium and invest the additonal time required by a SSE transfer? If I travel from CA to a less restricted state to shoot a match with my SP-01, I am required to use my slide with the firing pin block installed as opposed to a Shadow upper which would likely be available to the majority of in-state competitors at the match? Limiting any competitor's ability to attain (or at the very least replicate) what is being used by other competitors in the same class does not sit well with me.

I think the USPSA officials as well as the community as a whole need to take a step back and focus on the intent of the rules, not so much the black letter law. While there is an advantage to using a Shadow slide on a stock frame as compared to the stock slide (with FPB), it does not exceed the performance offered by the production legal Shadow models which are available to competitors in the majority of states...

Just my .02

Three things to add to your .02 on argument FOR an allowance for production-class equivalency.

First, SSE is a way for us in CA to get the productions guns available elsewhere, but for most folks it costs extra from the few dealers that do it, and no guarantee this method will exist for any length of time -- its been under legislative attack the last two years.

Second, some of the guns that are seen as among the top performers (SP01 Shadow, Accu-shadow, Stock II) are not inexpensive and have pretty constrained availability. Being able to retrofit or use what you have or can get make sense from the standpoint of both saving $$ and simply being able to field something.

Third, not all folks are rich for identical production legal spare guns, as well not all are gunsmiths to make on the spot fixes, why not let them use parts from what they own as a backup if needed (slide or frame from Glock, CZ, etc...), as long as you end up production legal?

Seems like right now folks are going to do what they need to do to compete given their budget and circumstances, and not having a production-equivalency rule really only potentially hurts folks who can't spend their way around it.