Re-shoots worse off?

[Supermoto]

Mike Seeklander did an interview that touches on this with Eric Grauffel

http://blog.shooting-performance.com/one-on-one-conversation-with-eric-grauffel-one-of-the-best-shooters-in-the-world/

Mike: It is often said that you shoot matches at 90%, and wait for others to make mistakes. Would you say this is true?

Eric: Aha, yes and no. I don’t know if I shoot 90%, hard to tell. But I know what kind of stages fits my skills. If this is kind of a plan, then I know other people who were and still are doing this plan, and thanks to them because I learned from them in my early learning years.

Mike’s comment: If you speak to almost anyone on the Pro circuit, they will tell you that they rarely see Eric “pushing.” He has the skill and knowledge to shoot to his strengths and stay out of his “red line” area of speed/skill which theoretically reduces his chances for mistakes. At the top of the game, less mistakes means the win.

[ben b.]

Ya know....If you only shoot the stage once, you have by definition shot it at 100% of your ability. 1 test = 1 result.

.

[toothandnail]

Ya know....If you only shoot the stage once, you have by definition shot it at 100% of your ability. 1 test = 1 result.

.

There ya go !

Anybody who claims they can shoot 100%, the first time every time is delusional .

If you could do it the first time, WHY can't you do it a second?

Going back to other high demand sports, is there ANY others that don't have a warm-up (practice) before hand?

I've only competed at a high level in

football

wrestling

track

motorcycle racing - MX ,TT, Flat Track, & Hare Scrambles

ATV racing - MX, TT & Flat Track

Observed trials

Participated in many others

I realize, as much, or more than, most that . . .

Sports are 90% mental

The other 50% is physical

Edited May 29, 2014 by toothandnail

[CHA-LEE]

USPSA matched have a "practice session" before actually shooting the stage, this is the 5 minute walk through period. If you are dry firing the stage incorrectly or unrealistically during the 5 minute walk through, or if you are failing to mentally program your stage before shooting it, then your live fire performance is going to suffer.

When I setup a shooting drill or stage scenario in practice, I put the same amount of time and effort into breaking it down and programming it as I would in a match before I actually shoot it. When I do this properly my first run results in a performance that is virtually identical to my 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 10th run of the drill or stage. If I treat every subsequent drill/stage run with the same respect and mental diligence the results are virtually identical. I am not consciously or intentionally trying to replicate a specific time or hit factor either. I am simply focusing on executing the processes as soon as possible while adhering to my mental program of the shooting challenge.

If you need to shoot a stage multiple times in order to identify inefficiencies or mistakes in your ability to break down, program, or execute the stage run then you are wasting your 5 minute walk through time on an invalid "Practice" process.

I see the "Invalid practice" process being performed by shooters every single time I go to a match. I watch them dry fire a whole field course stage 5 - 10 seconds faster than they actually end up shooting the stage. Their dry fire of the stage is inaccurate and they program this inaccurate performance then try to apply it to their live fire stage run. If you formulate and program a stage performance that is based on a 15 second run, but then it ends up being a 20 - 25 second run, how much of that programming or skill execution is valid? Not much. Thus the primary reason why these shooters usually shoot stages or drill better the more times they shoot it. They need to shoot the stage to set a realistic "practice" time for every single action needed for the stage run. Needing to shoot a stage to set a realistic time or process of shooting a stage is a crutch that most shooters never overcome. The top shooters in this sport no longer need this crutch because they can effectively "Practice" the stage before they shoot it.

[Chris iliff]

CHA-LEE......

I have heard it said that the best, if given the chance for a second run, can take time off the first run. I always assumed it was because there would be nuances that just have to be felt, or because, since nothing is perfect, they find what to improve quickly and improve it during the second attempt. Of course at some point you are going to Max it out, reaching your limit of human performance.

About in the middle of A class I started trying to rehearse my stages in real time. Doing what you describe above, including most of my DRYFIRE. I have found this helps me be more consistent. I do know that in practice, I generally get a little better on a drill as I repeat it. I repeat a drill until the HF peaks, at that point I move on to another drill.

What say you?

Edited May 29, 2014 by Chris iliff

[CHA-LEE]

CHA-LEE......

I have heard it said that the best, if given the chance for a second run, can take time off the first run. I always assumed it was because there would be nuances that just have to be felt, or because, since nothing is perfect, they find what to improve quickly and improve it during the second attempt. Of course at some point you are going to Max it out, reaching your limit of human performance.

About in the middle of A class I started trying to rehearse my stages in real time. Doing what you describe above, including most of my DRYFIRE. I have found this helps me be more consistent. I do know that in practice, I generally get a little better on a drill as I repeat it. I repeat a drill until the HF peaks, at that point I move on to another drill.

What say you?

I have observed in my own shooting, that as my stage breakdown and dry fire practice skills improve the more the Hit Factor gap narrows between my first and subsequent runs. When I was a B class shooter the performance gap between my first run and my subsequent runs were significantly different. Now, that performance gap is very minimal between my first and subsequent runs.

Here is a good example..... In my last live fire training session I setup a small three shooting position practice stage that was 20 rounds. The stage basically had a middle, left and right shooting positions and I used three different stage plans to see which stage plan would yield the best and most consistent result. For every stage plan I fixed the starting position in the middle of the stage to make evaluating the results of each different plan a fair test. I then shot each stage plan 5 times for a total of 15 runs in order to get a good understanding of which plan would yield the best or most consistent performance. The first plan was to draw as I moved to the left position, engage the left targets stationary, then engage the middle targets on the move to the right, then finish on the right targets from a stationary position. My first run was 8.35 seconds with 1 D hit, my second run was 8.25 seconds with 1 D hit, my third run was 8.42 seconds with no D hit, my fourth run was 8.32 seconds with 2 D hits, and my fifth run was 8.21 seconds with 1 D hit. I then switched my stage plan to draw and move to the right position first, then do the middle array on the move to the left then the left position stationary. All five of those runs were also in the 8.2x - 8.4x time range with about the same quality of hits. Then my third plan was to draw directly to the middle array of target at the start from a static position, then haul ass to the left position and engage those targets from a stationary position, then haul ass to the right position and engage those targets from a stationary position. All five of these runs were also in the 8.2x - 8.4x time range but none of the runs produced any D zone hits. What this training session yet again confirmed to me is that the stage plan its self really didn't matter because each plan basically had three shooting positions. Regardless of how the three shooting positions were executed the stage time was virtually identical. Since the time was identical between all of the different plans I then had to look at which plan produced the most consistent good quality of hits on the target. This ended up being the three static shooting position stage plan.

This is a perfect example of producing a nearly identical stage performance (all within 2% of each other) over 15 different runs. The only way that this happened is by me treating each stage run as the one and only time I will get to shoot the stage. Maybe someone can claim that I simply "Sucked" at the same performance level 15 different times. I guess that is possible, but I don't find it very statistically probable.

[Chris iliff]

That's exactly why I asked, thanks!!

[toothandnail]

Try the same on a 140-160 second stage, if you can produce the same results, You'll have me convinced.

[CHA-LEE]

Have fun shooting matches with your head buried in the sand. I will continue to thank you for that decision and associated substandard performance donation when the results are tallied.

Edited May 31, 2014 by CHA-LEE

[GOF]

+1 to liking re-shoots. I prefer not to re-shoot immediately (RO, I gotta reload mags) so I have a moment to think about what I can do better in the re-shoot that I didn't do the first time. Sometimes it's just a matter of the position I shot a target that changing it now gives me quicker access to others.

[toothandnail]

Every athlete I know calls it, reality.

[BeerBaron]

Try the same on a 140-160 second stage, if you can produce the same results, You'll have me convinced.

do you really have IPSC/USPSA pistol stages that are nearly 3 minutes long? I shoot IPSC so forgive my USPSA newbness but in IPSC a 'long' stage is 32 rounds max aka 160 points. if that took 160 seconds that would be a 1 HF stage assuming you got all A's. There are the odd outlaw match which have longer stages but not that often. I don't usually see a stage that would take an A grade competitor more than 30 seconds to completed.

[Sarge]

Try the same on a 140-160 second stage, if you can produce the same results, You'll have me convinced.

do you really have IPSC/USPSA pistol stages that are nearly 3 minutes long? I shoot IPSC so forgive my USPSA newbness but in IPSC a 'long' stage is 32 rounds max aka 160 points. if that took 160 seconds that would be a 1 HF stage assuming you got all A's. There are the odd outlaw match which have longer stages but not that often. I don't usually see a stage that would take an A grade competitor more than 30 seconds to completed.

sounds like 3gun.

[pkm]

I am definitely no where near the best but I did have a chancel last year to take a class with Ron Avery and Nils down in St George and at the end we ran through some of the stages that were shot at Nationals last year. Nils went up and shot the stage first and the stage started with an array of a rear falling Popper that activated a swinger and two static targets in between. Nils stepped up and put down a great run, however when talking about the stage after the fact he said if he could have done it over again he would have doubled the popper instead of knocking it down with a single shot. We reset the stage and he shot it again. He saved a decent amount of time because he actually knew what the timing was going to be instead of just timing it as the RO knocked it over for us to see. I definitely think you can save time the second time around especially at that level. However, if you don't put the effort in to evaluating the stage in your walk through I definitely don't think you can pick up that sort of detail out of your actual stage run.

CHA-LEE......

I have heard it said that the best, if given the chance for a second run, can take time off the first run. I always assumed it was because there would be nuances that just have to be felt, or because, since nothing is perfect, they find what to improve quickly and improve it during the second attempt. Of course at some point you are going to Max it out, reaching your limit of human performance.

About in the middle of A class I started trying to rehearse my stages in real time. Doing what you describe above, including most of my DRYFIRE. I have found this helps me be more consistent. I do know that in practice, I generally get a little better on a drill as I repeat it. I repeat a drill until the HF peaks, at that point I move on to another drill.

What say you?

[BeerBaron]

Try the same on a 140-160 second stage, if you can produce the same results, You'll have me convinced.

do you really have IPSC/USPSA pistol stages that are nearly 3 minutes long? I shoot IPSC so forgive my USPSA newbness but in IPSC a 'long' stage is 32 rounds max aka 160 points. if that took 160 seconds that would be a 1 HF stage assuming you got all A's. There are the odd outlaw match which have longer stages but not that often. I don't usually see a stage that would take an A grade competitor more than 30 seconds to completed.

sounds like 3gun.

that makes more sense. Thanks sarge.

[Mthomas0001]

Grat advice on practicing the walk through during dry-fire - thanks!

[moky1001]

New here. Last june 8th at CJRPC i went to my first ipsc match. At a particular stage i made my run and the RO had to stop at the last target due to equipment failure. The stage starts condition 4 and firearm holstered. engage 2 steel round target upon start. My first run i shot the 2 steel plates 1 round each. The embarrassing reshoot begins. upon start i spent 10rounds shooting the 1st steel round plate. The noobness in me kicks in and forgot to focus on my trigger pull. I finished the reshoot like a nightmare. Talk about having a bad day. LOL

[kknack]

I've pretty consistently bombed re shoots any time I've had too. Usually mental mistakes like forgetting required hits or sequence.

[awfaxis]

Just did my first RO gig at the Double-Tap Championship last week. Out of approximately 6 reshoots on my stage, only one person did worse.

[mknpwr]

I had a reshoot during a TFT match. The stage was set up by the SASS group and we had to start with the pistol loaded with 6 rounds and nothing in the chamber. Draw, rack and shoot the targets. Each magazine was allowed 6 rounds and it was scored as a SASS COF. Someone didn't reset two steel and in SASS they are considered shot if not reset. I took a reshoot and had two misses.

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[exmr2sw]

I think Ive only seen on TWO occasions that a shooter will perform/score better the 2nd time around..

[gonefishin]

A reshoot killed me this past weekend. I ran the course and did pretty well on it, but the timer malfunctioned. By the time my turn came back around, a big storm was blowing in. Half way into my reshoot, which was going better than my first run, all of the steel blew over as the storm hit. So I waited for nearly an hour to reshoot the stage again. So naturally, the third time sucked! This is the second time this year that reshoots have come back to bite me.

[garp]

I had a re-shoot in an area match for equipment failure. My re-shoot was not as smooth. I started over thinking my game plan from the original plan I had. Lesson learned. Stick with my game plan and imporve where I can. Mind games suck.

[toothandnail]

Seems to me the majority of guys doing worse on reshoots admit it's a mental error that causes a worse time.

[CSStreett]

I just view re-shoots as a stage with a practice round. Learn from you mistakes and do it better the second time.