Is this magazine placement legal ?

[kirbinster]

I was shooting a match the other day where we had to start with the gun unloaded on a barrel. At the buzzer we had to load and start the course of fire. Since I only had four mag pouches I wanted to start with my fifth magazine as pictured. The RO told me I was not allowed to do that and something to the effect that my magazine had to be within two inches of my belt. So I stowed it in my back pocket which of course slowed me down. Afterwards he apologized and said he thought I was shooting production when I was shooting my G35 L10. I am surprised he thought that as my leading mag pouch was too far forward for production anyway. Its not a big deal, but both I and a few others that were at the match were interested to know if what I was trying was legal for L10, and would it be legal for production if the mag pouches were behind my center line?

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Not legal. See 5.2.4

Edit to add, if you need another mag holder send me a PM and I will send you a fobus double I have

Edited May 26, 2014 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[PKT1106]

Rule 5.2.4- During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated

otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or

speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to

the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them, providing that the location of the

apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item

12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

[Sarge]

Not legal for Production but legal in L10

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Not legal for Production but legal in L10

Where is the retention device ? 5.2.4 is for all divisions

Edited May 26, 2014 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[Steve RA]

In this particular case, I'd say the magazine retention device(s) are the magazines on either side ! After all, the magazine is obviously retained.

[SteveU]

In this particular case, I'd say the magazine retention device(s) are the magazines on either side ! After all, the magazine is obviously retained.

...specifically designed for .....

[MarkCO]

And people wonder how the rulebook got so big.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

deleted

Edited May 26, 2014 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[Sarge]

Not legal for Production but legal in L10

Where is the retention device ? 5.2.4 is for all divisions

agreed but Production new rules are now specific about mag placement. L10 has no wording on pouches so 5.2.4 is all that applies

[OUshooter]

And people wonder how the rulebook got so big.

I flat don't get it. You and the rule book have there in black and white. What is it people don't get?

MarkCo hit it right on the head.

[Skydiver]

Put a magnet there -- even a weak one. Even if the magnet isn't very effective in holding the mag -- at least you can say that the magnet was designed to hold the mag -- just not very effectively.

[Parallax3D]

Legality would depend on whether the mag was still there after the start signal.

If you load from the mag before the start signal, you're fine. Have the mag there AFTER the start signal, then 5.2.4 WOULD apply. Wedging the mag between two others is NOT a legal retention device.

In the situtation that the OP described, it would NOT be legal, since it was an unloaded start. Any mags after the start signal must come from either a retention device on the belt, or from table, etc. as described in the WSB.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Parallax3D

[Sarge]

Legality would depend on whether the mag was still there after the start signal.

If you load from the mag before the start signal, you're fine. Have the mag there AFTER the start signal, then 5.2.4 WOULD apply. Wedging the mag between two others is NOT a legal retention device.

In the situtation that the OP described, it would NOT be legal, since it was an unloaded start. Any mags after the start signal must come from either a retention device on the belt, or from table, etc. as described in the WSB.

Also from legal apparel pockets.

And technically a mag can be in an illegal place during the course of fire. You just can't use it

[alma]

IMHO it's close enough to legal that I would let him run with it. It's not like he found a loophole that would give him an advantage. It's still going to be slow and still being retained by the mag pouches in a way. I say "A" for effort.

[motosapiens]

IMHO it's close enough to legal that I would let him run with it. It's not like he found a loophole that would give him an advantage. It's still going to be slow and still being retained by the mag pouches in a way. I say "A" for effort.

A for effort, but F for legality. Just because someone was creative is no reason to let him blatantly break a rule that is extremely clear.

Edited May 27, 2014 by motosapiens

[alma]

IMHO it's close enough to legal that I would let him run with it. It's not like he found a loophole that would give him an advantage. It's still going to be slow and still being retained by the mag pouches in a way. I say "A" for effort.

A for effort, but F for legality. Just because someone was creative is no reason to let him blatantly break a rule that is extremely clear.

And what is the punishment per the rulebook? Give you a hint, it isn't moving him into open.

I think of this as being more of a gray area. It's still within two inches. He ran out of pouch space and by the looks of the gear he is a newer shooter so he is doing the best he can. The rules are there for a reason but at a club match where there is absolutely no competitive advantage with something like this maybe we should just relax on occasion. Flame away but there is no need to be authoritarian.

[kirbinster]

IMHO it's close enough to legal that I would let him run with it. It's not like he found a loophole that would give him an advantage. It's still going to be slow and still being retained by the mag pouches in a way. I say "A" for effort.

A for effort, but F for legality. Just because someone was creative is no reason to let him blatantly break a rule that is extremely clear.

And what is the punishment per the rulebook? Give you a hint, it isn't moving him into open.

I think of this as being more of a gray area. It's still within two inches. He ran out of pouch space and by the looks of the gear he is a newer shooter so he is doing the best he can. The rules are there for a reason but at a club match where there is absolutely no competitive advantage with something like this maybe we should just relax on occasion. Flame away but there is no need to be authoritarian.

Thanks, and you are correct I am fairly new. I had been using just one mag pouch but learned that it really slowed me down pulling things out of my pockets so bought another so I thought I would be set with four on the belt and one in the gun, but this stage started with an unloaded gun. I was not trying to game the system, just thought this would be a good way to solve the problem. I am friends with the RO and have no issue with what he thought was right or how he handled it. I just wanted to get a clarification from folks in the know, as no one else on my squad was exactly sure how this should be handled. I am trying to learn.

[Jaxshooter]

Play the game the way you are suppose to by the rules. It doesn't matter if it is a local match or the Nationals.

[BayouSlide]

Rules are like glass…they don't bend, they break.

Curtis

[motosapiens]

And what is the punishment per the rulebook? Give you a hint, it isn't moving him into open.

I think of this as being more of a gray area. It's still within two inches. He ran out of pouch space and by the looks of the gear he is a newer shooter so he is doing the best he can. The rules are there for a reason but at a club match where there is absolutely no competitive advantage with something like this maybe we should just relax on occasion. Flame away but there is no need to be authoritarian.

I don't see how it could possibly be considered a gray area, but maybe you could explain further. That seems very clearly like a mag that is NOT being retained in a device attached to the belt and designed for that purpose.

As pictured above it's CLEARLY a competitive advantage. I just wouldn't start the shooter, and would advise him to put the extra mag in his back pocket like the rest of us do.

Edited May 27, 2014 by motosapiens

[Sarge]

To the OP. I know you meant no harm by it. Pretty sure we all do. But rules are rules and if they get relaxed for your local matches then you will be in for a rude awakening when you decide to shoot a state/section or area match where you are actually held to the standards in the rule book.

To Alma. Authoritarian? For following the rules?

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

IMHO it's close enough to legal that I would let him run with it. It's not like he found a loophole that would give him an advantage. It's still going to be slow and still being retained by the mag pouches in a way. I say "A" for effort.

A for effort, but F for legality. Just because someone was creative is no reason to let him blatantly break a rule that is extremely clear.

And what is the punishment per the rulebook? Give you a hint, it isn't moving him into open.

I think of this as being more of a gray area. It's still within two inches. He ran out of pouch space and by the looks of the gear he is a newer shooter so he is doing the best he can. The rules are there for a reason but at a club match where there is absolutely no competitive advantage with something like this maybe we should just relax on occasion. Flame away but there is no need to be authoritarian.

Thanks, and you are correct I am fairly new. I had been using just one mag pouch but learned that it really slowed me down pulling things out of my pockets so bought another so I thought I would be set with four on the belt and one in the gun, but this stage started with an unloaded gun. I was not trying to game the system, just thought this would be a good way to solve the problem. I am friends with the RO and have no issue with what he thought was right or how he handled it. I just wanted to get a clarification from folks in the know, as no one else on my squad was exactly sure how this should be handled. I am trying to learn.

I give you credit for asking here and I hope in all the posts, you learned. Package will go out to you Friday and you won't have to try this again

Edit to add:

Letting something "slide" at a local match does you a disservice. It can cause you some real headaches at a regional, sectional, or national match.

I heard several times at the chrono last year at A7 "No one ever told me that before" just as someone was being bumped to open. I felt like crap by the end of the match just for enforcing rules that newer shooters were allowed to overlook. It ruined a good time for the shooter but it also ruined a good time for us as staff. No one enjoys being the bearer of bad news.

Read all you can here, learn from it, study the rules, take a RO course and enjoy shooting every time you go.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[kirbinster]

To the OP. I know you meant no harm by it. Pretty sure we all do. But rules are rules and if they get relaxed for your local matches then you will be in for a rude awakening when you decide to shoot a state/section or area match where you are actually held to the standards in the rule book.

To Alma. Authoritarian? For following the rules?

Thanks. I was not looking for things to be relaxed - I like to play by the rules. The issue was that there seemed to be a lot of uncertainty about this which is why I was encouraged by several people to ask.

Thanks Round Gun Shooter! Hope hand is doing well.

Edited May 27, 2014 by kirbinster

[Parallax3D]

Legality would depend on whether the mag was still there after the start signal.

If you load from the mag before the start signal, you're fine. Have the mag there AFTER the start signal, then 5.2.4 WOULD apply. Wedging the mag between two others is NOT a legal retention device.

In the situtation that the OP described, it would NOT be legal, since it was an unloaded start. Any mags after the start signal must come from either a retention device on the belt, or from table, etc. as described in the WSB.

Also from legal apparel pockets.

And technically a mag can be in an illegal place during the course of fire. You just can't use it

Nope!

5.2.4 says they SHALL be CARRIED in a retention device (or clothing pocket.) Since that is NOT a retention device, (wedged between two other mags is not a retention device), it would not be legal, even if you DIDN'T use the mag.