Should Match Director or Range Master shoot the match?

[thermobollocks]

How frequently does it ever come up that the RM actually has to make a call on their own shooting? People often go out of their way to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest, and in some situations that seems wise (like not taking a monetary prize based on your placement at your own match), while other precautions (like not shooting the match at all) aren't something I'd ask anyone to do.

Sometimes a high level shooter who's also MD/RMing can get some gentle ribbing for coming up first, but I think everyone who sees knows it's because they shoot well, not because of any shenanigans.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

I was registered to shoot the Midwest 3 Gun in June, had my division set, my ammo set aside....and I've backed out of the match.

I volunteered to help design new stages and set them up. I do not feel it is appropriate to shoot the match for a score, even if I am NOT the Match Director or Range Master.....scoring myself on stages I designed and set up, seems like a marked advantage IMO. I will be shooting the Midwest 3 Gun (no score of course) on May 24th, possibly a little on May 17th as well, in order to proof the stages and make sure there are no glaring issues with the stages before the Range Officers shoot on May 30/31st. I do want to shoot the match, but I also want to look the stages over and make sure of anything extra that may have to be added in the stage description, as I want the stage descriptions to be painfully detailed.

For club level and local matches, I would expect an RM or MD to shoot with us and have to make their own ethical decision as to whether or not they include their scores when reporting them....if there are prizes at stake, I would expect them to exclude themselves from that.

[Benelli Chick]

I don't mean to sound grumpy...but...

As to going to the prize table...How many times have I read on this thread that many of you count on the prize table to cover part of the cost for shooting????

As far as staff, Yes, they get a free match. Sometimes, they get bed and food. Sometimes, they get a few drawings. But, I don't know of very many that are getting their transportation paid for to and from the match. They aren't getting the money back for their days off work.

As far as match directors...I have heard that a few of us are getting paid to run matches...that is a different thing! Most of us are giving our time, our own transportation and gas and such...we are NOT getting paid to run the match. I don't know about others, but we don't pull prizes off the table before the prize table. We want everyone to see how generous our sponsors are. The only payback we can get to help with the costs is the prize table.

EaZeNu- I think you'll be surprised at how much worse you shoot if you design the stages...I don't think it will be an advantage at all, but I understand and respect your values.

If we were taking pay, or receiving compensation for running the match, we should NOT participate in the prize table. As it is, it's the only chance to recoup any expenses at all. But, for me, that's just a dream...I don't win anything much anyway! I mean it's all GOOD stuff, because our sponsors are amazing...but it's nothing huge and magnificent!

JJ decided at He-Man, that since there were so few He-Men Iron, that he just should pass this time on the prize table. He does that often. Sometimes, he gets a prize, mostly not! But, I really don't think it's unethical for us to get a prize for performance at a match where neither of us can shoot for...poop!

Just my $.02! And Eric is right, you need RO's putting in their best effort, to be sure we have all the gaming covered before anyone else gets there!! My best effort is often just wandering about, following what we originally planned. Every time, one of the RO's shows me something I hadn't seen yet.

One time, I designed a stage. I worked so hard placing no-shoots and targets so there was no sweet spot. I walked it from what I thought was every position. One of my RO's, who shall be nameless...Scott...walked up and found a sweet spot in less than 5 minutes. We did a little adapting and none of the RO's shot it with the sweet spot there.

Any decisions during the RO shoot are written down on the complete WSB that is on the stage. So, ALL the shooters have the same advantages/disadvantages as the others. We work very hard for consistency throughout the RO shoot as well as the "official" shoot! You need some competitors to see the things the stage designers didn't see. Sometimes, if we don't see them soon enough, they stay. Don't want to change the course of fire...but our RO's push the limits and check out issues BEFORE they even start shooting!

Just me babbling!

Denise

[EaZeNuTZ33]

I get what your saying....I just can't agree with it. If I'm a shooter who paid an entry fee (or my sponsor paid to the entry) and I have travel expenses in place I can see where someone will claim that the prize table offsets their costs. I also believe that this may be what kills prize tables in the future since the prizes are online for sale the next week.

When running a BIG match, setting up, AND walking the prize table....I see at least two areas for possible conflicts of interest. Now, if you aren't taking a top spot and never will, a conflict may never arise since you won't have enough people behind you that would complain. I'm not knocking you at all, just basing it upon what you wrote.

To give you an idea of my expenses for MW3G....I'm leaving the hybrid escape at home to drive he F250 this Saturday while pulling the Mule 4x4 behind it and taking my own props to donate to the range, then going again with the same equipment on the 24th to finish working to setup the range and shoot to proof the stages, then out again in the hybrid without guns to be there during the match to make sure the stages are being run as intended. I'm receiving no pay for the match and not shooting the match for a score. I'll be closing my office on the Friday of the match as well. I'm doing it because I want to help.....with no consideration about a return on investment or covering my costs.

[Benelli Chick]

I get what your saying....I just can't agree with it. If I'm a shooter who paid an entry fee (or my sponsor paid to the entry) and I have travel expenses in place I can see where someone will claim that the prize table offsets their costs. I also believe that this may be what kills prize tables in the future since the prizes are online for sale the next week.

When running a BIG match, setting up, AND walking the prize table....I see at least two areas for possible conflicts of interest. Now, if you aren't taking a top spot and never will, a conflict may never arise since you won't have enough people behind you that would complain. I'm not knocking you at all, just basing it upon what you wrote.

To give you an idea of my expenses for MW3G....I'm leaving the hybrid escape at home to drive he F250 this Saturday while pulling the Mule 4x4 behind it and taking my own props to donate to the range, then going again with the same equipment on the 24th to finish working to setup the range and shoot to proof the stages, then out again in the hybrid without guns to be there during the match to make sure the stages are being run as intended. I'm receiving no pay for the match and not shooting the match for a score. I'll be closing my office on the Friday of the match as well. I'm doing it because I want to help.....with no consideration about a return on investment or covering my costs.

Yep! Those expenses will get you! I appreciate anyone willing to help run a match so others can play! I enjoy just shooting and resetting at a match these days a lot more than I used to!

But, understanding that you are not looking for a return on your investment...I don't think a trip to the prize table would be that big a return, and I, for one, would not begrudge you that small benefit. I understand that if you're a top finisher, things might get dicey with others views of the situation, and your decision not to shoot the match for score is an honorable one. I just get tired of people implying that working a match, in any context, is easy and you gain this huge advantage and shoot like a rockstar!

Have fun and thanks in advance for your hard work!

Denise

[MarkCO]

There is a huge difference between ROs and the MD/RM and stage designers shooting the match for score. Brian never asked about ROs who I think everyone agrees deserve to shoot for score.

[HRider]

I don't get to shoot many major matches and I am a mid level shooter, so take this for face value. I don't have a problem with match staff/management shooting for score. Of all of the people that I have came into contact with in different sports, shooters (old school 3 gun shooters in particular) are some of the most honest that I have ever met. They are willing to help fellow competitors out, etc. Sure, I have seen gaming and attempted gaming from some of the top level competitors at different matches (none of these instances were match staff/management that were shooting), and it was handled fairly from my perspective. I believe that with the level of work involved to run a good major, the shooting is not going to be at the normal level of that person anyway, the only exception that I see to this is if the match staff/management has spent an inordinate amount of time proofing the stages or if their are "blind" stages in the match. I suppose that I am rambling, but it should be a case by case basis. I wouldn't want to see a hard rule against it.

Hurley

[Nik Habicht]

I would never want anyone else to feel bound my decision not to compete in a match that I'm RMing. That's a personal choice -- it's the right one for me; but I'm certainly not going to call it the correct decision for everyone else......

[Brian Payne]

I have no problem with the senior match staff shooting the match for score. The only people whom I have ever seen complain about it are the same people who surprisingly (or not) I never see working matches. If there were any advantage to it at all you would see said shooters jumping at the chance to be match director, but you don't do you?

As far as the prize table goes, again no problem. Running a match to win a prize would be stupid. You could get a part-time job, put in 25% of the hours spent working on the match and buy a prize equal to or better than the best prize on the table, and for a lot less hassle.

I have not run matches in a very long time, but when I did it I had a simple attitude. Don't like the way I do it? Go shoot someplace else.

I like all of the thoughts here but I have to say this comment sticks with my thoughts the most. I found out first hand how much more difficult it was to be part of running the match versus just shooting the match. I learned a whole new respect for the people that have been doing this for years. I am hoping the reputation of the match, and the reputation of the people that put the on the match are such that there would be no question as to the integrity behind how things are done.

Being a volunteer sport I do this because I enjoy it and I am dedicated to helping others enjoy it as well. I would hate to get to the point of working so hard it takes all the fun out of it.

I am not a golfer, but I watched a little on TV once and I really couldn't see what fun the dude was having that had to carry the other guys golf clubs around all the time. Doing all the work and watching someone else have all the fun would suck.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

It does suck doing the work and watching everyone else have the fun. Being friends with the guy who runs the Gateway 3-Gun series, we have talked several times about how he almost never gets to shoot his own matches, even to proof them some times. It's still a great match, and a club level match I've driven 5hrs one way to shoot!

While I personally feel that not shooting the match gives a little more assurance to the paying shooters that shenanigans aren't present, I think it could be handled on a case by case basis. With you, Brian, I've met and talked to you, and in no way question your integrity when it comes to the match. I have also seen you shoot and know that if you were in the top, it's not because your skill level was overshadowed by cheating! Others, Like Denise and MarkCO, have a reputation that is well known to a core group of shooters who could vouch for them, so I wouldn't question them as much until I got to know them. The point is, if I had never met you or the match admins before, and I showed up to your match where there are TEN high end prizes and the match admins are all in the top ten.....I'm going to question it with myself, and possibly publicly if my questions are shared by others.

Up until this year, I wouldn't have questioned it nearly as much as I would now, but experiences change how you look at things, good experiences or bad! Up until this year, the only thing I had ever watched was bad behavior by shooters, not match admin. After that tho, my opinion has less to do with whether or not it's fair for match admin to shoot the match for a score, because I agree that it sucks to not get to shoot a match you've spent countless hours designing and setting. The prize from the prize table situation, is a non-issue IMO, and is no different than someone saying they would skip a GREAT match with a crap prize table to visit a CRAP match with a great prize table....wrong reasons to be at the match and wrong reasons to shoot matches! My opinion is based around whether or not the integrity of the match could be questioned, as well as, if MY integrity could be question. My reputation is worth a LOT more than any bottle of oil, or gun, that would be pulled from a prize table.

[Chuck Anderson]

I am no where near dedicated enough to spend hundreds of hours of work to put a match together and not shoot the thing. Based on the last two years experience, I'm going to shoot it like crap again this year. But I am going to shoot it. My take on the ethics question is that it has much more to do with the people involved than their decision to shoot or not. If you think the MD and RM are not ethical, do you really believe that they wouldn't just take something from the sponsors before it even hits the prize table? And I'm not even saying that is a bad practice. I've given the RO's prizes ahead of time. I know dang well that they don't shoot as well as they could. It's never anything big, flash hiders from PWS, or headlamps from LED Lenser. Stuff like that. Even some big ass lights the first year. But they were all prizes the specific sponsors wanted to give to the RO's. Do I think it's right to give away a rifle or other high end prize to the staff, sure why not. But it should be in the open. Either during awards or make it darn clear to everyone what happened to the gun, and why. MGM Ironman gives away a Ms. Congeniality award (they might not call it that) to staff. It goes to the RO that made it a great match. Do I begrudge Craig Outzen for winning a pair of binoculars? Absolutely not. He's a blast as an RO and I wish I could clone him, just don't tell him I said that.

I do design almost all of the stages for my match. None of them are sneaky or tricky and I haven't seen one yet where designing it was an advantage. I did have one last year where it was a definite disadvantage. I put it on paper with a way I intended it to be shot. Saw it during the main match and realized there was a much better way. I probably would have spotted it as a competitor, but not as a stage designer. I do walk through every stage multiple times, but every competitor has that option as well. I don't shoot them ahead of time. Not even an array.

I don't fault MD's or RM's who choose not to shoot. I know several that just wouldn't have any fun doing it. I know if the match is going bad, or behind, or for any of a hundred other reasons, I may not finish. First priority is the match. But hopefully I did my job up front well enough the match will cruise smoothly.

As far as the part about the RM making all the decisions, if there's a question on his stuff, the MD reviews it and vice versa. I don't like anyone enough to lie or cheat for them. I'm certainly not going to violate or even bend a rule for someone just because they are on staff. Just ask my RM from last year at M3GI who I DQ'd. Sucked and he argued it just like any other competitor. But he didn't bring the RM position into the argument, didn't threaten to walk off and go home. He took it like a man and continued to work the match and volunteered to come back again this year.

[Sarge]

I think this thread made a very sudden turn down the ethics path somewhere along the line. I think if an RM want's to shoot that is fine. I don't know too many cheaters in this game, and none of them are RM's. But I also respect an RM that says he does not want to shoot so he can avoid all possible second guessing by competitors. I actually admire that. It also helps that the typical RM is not gunning for HOA.

As for the prize table issues, I think staff should have a separate table and drawing. And I have no problem giving staff good prizes. The matches don't happen without them. As for myself I go out of my way to stay above reproach. If had drawn a gun for myself in our big match there is no way I would have taken it. That would not look good no matter how I explained it.

This year I am raffling a gun off at the end of the season to the volunteers who come out and set up our local match. I am there every time without fail and probably would have a decent chance of winning but I made an announcement at our first match that I was the only person ineligible to win it. To me appearances are everything.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

I think this thread made a very sudden turn down the ethics path somewhere along the line. I think if an RM want's to shoot that is fine. I don't know too many cheaters in this game, and none of them are RM's. But I also respect an RM that says he does not want to shoot so he can avoid all possible second guessing by competitors. I actually admire that. It also helps that the typical RM is not gunning for HOA.

As for the prize table issues, I think staff should have a separate table and drawing. And I have no problem giving staff good prizes. The matches don't happen without them. As for myself I go out of my way to stay above reproach. If had drawn a gun for myself in our big match there is no way I would have taken it. That would not look good no matter how I explained it.

This year I am raffling a gun off at the end of the season to the volunteers who come out and set up our local match. I am there every time without fail and probably would have a decent chance of winning but I made an announcement at our first match that I was the only person ineligible to win it. To me appearances are everything.

I think you and I are in about the same mindset on this. I trust MOST people in this sport and wouldn't second guess MOST people's intentions or their finish in a match....but an experience or two changed how I saw things a little.

I like the separate prize table idea as well. My only stipulation would be that the RO prize table needs to reflect the shooter's prize table. If there are 30 guns for 300 shooters, there needs to be 10 guns for 100 RO's on their table. I never would have second guessed RO scores before this year....and my concerns that come into play are not that RO's necessarily cheat, but sometimes things change from the RO shoot to the actual match that could destroy RO scores, or make the RO's score much higher than they normally could.

[Brian Payne]

I didn't want the discussion to start going down the ethics path, and I sure didn't want to start looking at matches that called into question anything match staff may or may not have done.

If anything, I wanted to keep the discussions centered around matches like the RM3G or one of Chucks matches and how match staff shoots the match like everyone else, and it is a natural thing that no one questions. How does one get their match to be at that level? How do you build the reputation that allows for this with no one having a problem with it?

In a perfect world a RM and MD should be able to shoot their own match without any questions asked.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

In a perfect world, I can leave all my guns in my unlocked car while I sleep in a hotel room and not worry about anything. I would only carry my CCW because it feels good against my skin.

We don't live in a perfect world. Reputations are built over time as a result of private and public dealings within your niche community, and while a certain amount of trust is initially given, it can be lost or built up.

[Brian Payne]

Dillen,

Good points. Except the CCW feels good against the skin part. That made me feel funny.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Hahaha.....to quote a buddy explaining how he was ok with Illinois's gun laws ...."you get used to it eventually"

[Shooter115]

If the MD or RM wants to shoot the match, by all means they should be allowed to shoot the match. By saying they couldn't, that would make working the match more of a job.....these folks already have jobs and I'm pretty sure they don't want a second one.

As the MD for our local matches, I want to shoot the matches. I'm the guy promoting the match, staying up late to design the stages, building props, maintaining steel, printing off all the score sheets, First to arrive and last to leave the range.....etc, etc, etc. I do it because I want to shoot and I want it to be as good as it can be.

Yes, this is for a local match, but to put it in context. If I were to put in 10X that much work to host a major match, then was told I couldn't shoot it. My first response would be a single finger solute.

Just my thoughts.

[J.Schmitt]

I gonna chime in here. First I am the co-match director for the Nordic Components Shotgun Match. Brian Payne is the Range Master. Brian and I go back a few years. He is beyond reproach, a more honest person you will not find. But don't piss him off or throw a stick at him. If for any reason someone were to tell him he could not shoot the match I would have to tell them off, in a nice way. If it were an issue for the match staff I would not let my friend be the RM. I would put him in the match, because he is a competitor and that is where he truly belongs.

Our match. We set up 12 stages on thur. None is stage run troughs. Being a shotgun only match there is a little less cluster factor than incorporating all 3 guns. The entire staff will shoot it on Friday. There are 3 people who will not get carbon copies of there scores. Payne, myself and Villamor who is scoring the match. An RO will hold our sheet and they will be avail to anyone. Also our 3 scores will be posted by Friday, shooters will not see them immediately but they will be dated. We do this to prevent the slightest chance of a complaint.

I can honestly say that I would not put the match on if I did not shoot it. I agree with others that I don't shoot it to my potential. I had to squeeze a stage in during the match last year as I was unable to complete the first day. I got a good ribbing for why I was doing a walk through on a stage I designed. My honest answer was that I straight up never had time prior to do a walk through.

At our match the three above persons each design 4 stages. We have tried very had to proof everything, for example, Every stage will begin the same. Low ready from a designated area pointed at a designated marker.

Gotta go, kid wants me to draw a flashlight.

Jay

[Sarge]

I don't see anyone saying md/rm can not or should not shoot a match. I am mostly seeing those folks opinions on how they prefer to do it

[EaZeNuTZ33]

I don't see anyone saying md/rm can not or should not shoot a match. I am mostly seeing those folks opinions on how they prefer to do it

exactly.....for me, I'd rather not. Brian Payne is not someone I would question if he were shooting a match he was working.

[Brian Payne]

Guys, thanks forhaving my back, much appreciated. But that realy wasnt the direction I was looking to go.

My thoughts were about how to go about building the credibility for a atch that would allow senior staff to compete without fear of peole crying foul. Is it as simple as just doing it and if people dont mind, they will be back, and if they dont like it they will not return?

[1chota]

Brian, I have seen matches where the staff had a separate prize table. Surely that would remove any whining?

[EaZeNuTZ33]

If you want instant credibility for the match without having a well established reputation with the 3-Gun community (like me for instance), you could shoot the match without scoring yourself against the paid shooters or walking the prize table. I'm going to shoot MW3G to proof stages, if scores are kept, they will be written down below the written stage description for all to see and not scored against paid shooters. I've been doing this for barely over 2 years, so i don't have the time in to say my reputation and credibility are beyond reproach yet....but I'm trying to get there!

If you have established credibility and a good reputation like you do, you will probably never have an issue with most shooters unless you are placing in a top spot, at which point your reputation should be what saves you with all but the newest shooters. People who have an issue with it may or may not return based upon that. With the way things go when people post anything negatively about a match, they probably will NOT ever let you know why unless you approach them about it.

[J.Schmitt]

Guys, thanks forhaving my back, much appreciated. But that realy wasnt the direction I was looking to go.

My thoughts were about how to go about building the credibility for a atch that would allow senior staff to compete without fear of peole crying foul. Is it as simple as just doing it and if people dont mind, they will be back, and if they dont like it they will not return?

Brian, I think we have done that with out match. We have already put so many checks in place. Our staff of you, Villamor and I have no advantage beyond anyone else. When we shoot we have the same set up as the rest of our 20 person staff.

I will say that after running a large match I am exhaused and don't even want to be aroung guns for a few weeks. We saw our scores and abilities suffer last year as a result of the massive amount of a 1 day shoot and all the stressors leading up to the match. Of course, I am not going to let any of that affect me this year.

Jay