kirbinster Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I am starting to get really frustrated. While I have a lot of fun at USPSA I just don't seem to be improving. My biggest problem is speed, or lack there of. I know I take too long to line up my sights and get good hits, and this makes my times suck. I typically get mostly alphas, and very rarely any mikes. Normally I shoot limited 10 minor and actually have am rated a "C". This past weekend I shot .40 cal in limited 10 major. I had two good stages, well good for me, with hit factors of 3.5 to 4.0. The others were all in the twos, except for the classifier. I know in the back of my head that when shooting major I should be less concerned with getting all Alphas, but when the buzzer goes off I find I am still searching for the perfect shot. The one stage I did the best on I tried to go as fast as possible, and even forgot to shoot two poppers as I was rushing so - yet even with the brain fart it was my highest scoring stage. So, when the classifier stage came I said to myself move fast. The stage was three lower targets with no shoots above them covering all but mostly heads on three targets above that array. You had to put two shots on each of either row, perform a reload and put two shots on the other three. I started on the lower full targets and pushed hard getting mostly fast charlies. I did my reload and started on the heads. I took my time on the first shots and got solid hits but rushed my second shots and ended up with all mikes on all three follow-up shots. Needles to say my HF was a miserable sub 1.0 What I seem to recall is that when I am rushing I am picking my front sight up and getting it on target but I am failing to line it up with the rear and have the rear way too low so all my shots are high. I know I am doing this, but find I can either take my time and be accurate or go faster and fail to align my sights correctly. So what do I need to do to fix this? Should I just shoot minor concentrating on accuracy and hope speed comes or continue to shoot major quickly and hope accuracy returns? Or something else????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Accuracy trumps speed. But, only enough accuracy to hit the A zone ... You don't have to have 3" group in the center of the A-zone, just hit the A zone. And even the Masters shoot an occasional C zone. Have you ever tried a Bill Drill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEH Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Just like in school if you are failing math,hire a tutor. Only dif. you need a shooter tutor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirbinster Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 Accuracy trumps speed. But, only enough accuracy to hit the A zone ... You don't have to have 3" group in the center of the A-zone, just hit the A zone. And even the Masters shoot an occasional C zone. Have you ever tried a Bill Drill? Yes I have done Bill Drills. I also dry fire with a set of 3 mini targets which let me simulate 15, 20, 30 yards so I can practice transitions at different distances. The problem I am having is with this part of the Bill Drill "One important aspect of the Bill Drill is learning to follow your sights during recoil so that you can fire your next shot as soon as you have an adequate sight picture. Usually, this means pulling the trigger as soon as the front sight comes back down onto the scoring zone without waiting for precise alignment or for the sight to stop movement in the middle of the target." I find that what I am doing is firing as it says when the front sight comes back but am noticing the rear is way too low. What do I need to do to get that rear sight back up - that will be key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UTraab Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Accuracy trumps speed. I disagree. Both are equally important. With our scoring system, you can actually "absorb" bad accuracy with enough speed and that'll be enough to win at the local level. Of course, I wouldn't tell that to a new shooter. They need to work on accuracy AT speed, that is the key to the game and how to place high at Level II and beyond matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reshoot Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 You never once mentioned your practice routine. The only way to improve is practice . . . dry fire, and live fire. Get yourself a timer and get at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirbinster Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 You never once mentioned your practice routine. The only way to improve is practice . . . dry fire, and live fire. Get yourself a timer and get at it. What specifically are you wanting to know about my practice? Two threads up I mentioned that I practice dry firing one three targets of different sizes to simulate distance and transitions and use a SIRT laser gun with a par timer and some times a Beretta 92FS which lets the timer on my iPhone actually pick up the hammer clicks. I don't have access to an outdoor range for live practice, only an indoor range so I am limited to single targets at one distance at a time only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah my boy Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I agree dry fire will help build that consistency you need to align your sights everytime correctly. Try group shooting at 25yards on an open target and then try on a no shoot target all at 25yards. You began to notice what it takes to make the longer shots count as how much time you need and how bad the wobble is and in the same process you will get faster at closer targets as you get better groups at 25 yards. Trusts your front sight and if your shooting high it makes me believe your looking at the targets rather than your front sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirbinster Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 I agree dry fire will help build that consistency you need to align your sights everytime correctly. Try group shooting at 25yards on an open target and then try on a no shoot target all at 25yards. You began to notice what it takes to make the longer shots count as how much time you need and how bad the wobble is and in the same process you will get faster at closer targets as you get better groups at 25 yards. Trusts your front sight and if your shooting high it makes me believe your looking at the targets rather than your front sight. I am not following when you say "then try on a no shoot target at 25 yards" Why would I try to shoot a no shoot? What am I missing. Obviously I am looking at the target but my focus is on the front sight. Being slightly North of 50 I wear corrective lenses, I have my dominant eye set for the distance to the front sight and my other optimized for about 15 yards. The problem is that I pick up and concentrate on the front sight but find when I am trying to go fast I am not taking enough time to line up the rear sight and when I think about it afterwards I know that I don't have the back lined up and have it lower so the follow-up shots are high not because of watching the target but because I am not getting the gun back into a level position and have the front high (or the back low). Knowing and fixing are two different things. I guess what I am asking is what do I need to concentrate on the quickly get the sights back level as just having the front sight on target is not doing it for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reshoot Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 You never once mentioned your practice routine. The only way to improve is practice . . . dry fire, and live fire. Get yourself a timer and get at it. What specifically are you wanting to know about my practice? Two threads up I mentioned that I practice dry firing one three targets of different sizes to simulate distance and transitions and use a SIRT laser gun with a par timer and some times a Beretta 92FS which lets the timer on my iPhone actually pick up the hammer clicks. I don't have access to an outdoor range for live practice, only an indoor range so I am limited to single targets at one distance at a time only. Your response was not yet posted when I made my post. While I was pecking out my post, a message popped up informing me there were two new additions . . . one of them obviously being yours. You will eventually discover this is a common occurrence in online forums. Two new posts have just been added while I pecked this out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah my boy Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 When I say no shoot target I mean a target with a no shoot on it. A difficult target for that matter. All at 25 yards. It might be your grip it could be maybe a light recoil spring or that your In too much of a hurry in waiting on the gun to finish recoiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB45 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Here is one formula I like. Buy book from one of the top shooters + Read it. + do the drills. + repeat --------------------------------------- Desired results Another suggestion is to take a class from an experienced USPSA shooter. Learn what they are doing and why. Then practice as much as you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 The problem is that I pick up and concentrate on the front sight but find when I am trying to go fast I am not taking enough time to line up the rear sight and when I think about it afterwards I know that I don't have the back lined up Sounds like you are trying to shoot faster than you can actually aim. In general, I don't think it does much good to shoot faster with poor technique (i think this goes for just about every speed-related activity in the world), so what I would do is slow down enought that you can actually see that the sights are aligned. Find out how fast you can shoot when you make sure the sights are aligned enough to hit the a-zone. Then work on increasing that speed. You will probably find that you need to work on your grip a little. Ideally, you will find a way to hold and drive your gun that it drops back down into alignment (or close to being aligned), so all you will need is to verify the sights are aligned rather than move them around until they are aligned. It helped me to do bill drills and paired shots a little slower than as fast as i can pull the trigger, and only do them as fast as i can keep the sights aligned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reshoot Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Here is one formula I like. Buy book from one of the top shooters + Read it. + do the drills. + repeat --------------------------------------- Desired results Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 One issue I find very common with newer shooters is that they don't really know how much the sights can be displaced from "Perfectly Aligned" and still get solid A Zone hits at varying distances. I would suggest that you put in some live fire training time to setup targets at 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25 yards. Then shoot each target with the sights artificially displaced from an aligned position. For example, from a left/right perspective you could move the front post to the left or right so that there is no light gap present on that side between the front post verses the rear notch. While the sights are artificially displaced aim the front sight at the "A" in the center of the target and break a clean shot on each of the targets. Do this same process with the front sight deviated left, right, up and down. When you are done, I think you will be surprised at how displaced the sights can be from "perfect" and still get valid A or C zone hits. The whole purpose of this exercise is to prove/disprove how much or little the sights really have to be aligned to break a "good" shot at many different distances. Once you realize that closer targets don't require a super refined sight alignment to yield valid hits you can mentally justify breaking shots on these type of targets with less than optimal sight alignment. Doing this allows you to break the shots sooner because the sights will be aligned enough for the given shot. If you don't do this, you will always be using an excessive 40 - 50 yard aiming/sight alignment process for every target regardless of how close it really is. As you already know, this "Over Aiming" wastes a lot of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Get someone to video tape you shooting a stage or several stages. It's amazing how much you can pickup watching them afterwards. In my mind I'm blazing through the stage like a pro -- video confirms I'm slow as a snail. At least now I know specific things I could work on to improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirbinster Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 CHA-LEE - Thanks, that is a great idea. I have always wondered about that but never actually took the time to try it. I am going to do that. ZackJones - I agree video is a great tool. I have a GoPro that I sometimes use on a head strap. It has helped me with seeing that often I was loosening up my weakhand grip and doing some other bad things. I talked with the director of training and set up a lesson on the simulator tomorrow. He knows me and thinks he can get this fixed quickly. They have a very impressive simulator that uses a laser cartridge in a real gun along with an airsoft magazine to rack the slide. They have scenarios like hostage taking, police stops, but also regular targets both stationary and turning. I had tried it when they first installed the system and it is very impressive. There are cameras that record you and the computer tracks your hits and reaction times and it really pinpoints what you are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirbinster Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 I spent about an hour in the simulator doing all sorts of different shooting. This included targets (stationary and turning), police stops, hostage taking and more. I explained that since I am not a LEO I did not think some of the "people" shooting would be helpful, but it turned out it was. I used my GoPro to video the entire hour so I can review it again. What it turned out was that I am rushing to much, while I knew this, it was very helpful to have the instructor point this out and reinforce when I should be fast and when I want to concentrate of being smoother. It also helped to hear from a pro that I don't suck. I had been really getting down on how I was doing last week. I believe this was a very cost effective way to see some of the things I was getting sloppy on and now have some idea of specific things I need to watch for while practicing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joedirt Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Man, I feel your pain. Rob leatham has a great vid on youtube, that helped me with the same problem. you'll find it. after about a year of shooting, I says to myself, I'll just use my physical abilities and burn through stages... NOT! lately, I have decided to just take my time and don't shoot so fast that I can't make all A's....My goal for now is not time. I wan't to have all A's. I'm not sure how this will work, but a slow A has got to be better than a real fast M or even a D. I have also made it a point practice everything that I have absolute control over, reloading, drawing and moving.... We shall see good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimmy Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 "Shooter tutor" made me laugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Even though you may be moving quickly, you should never be: when I am rushing The trick lies in learning to shoot each A at the "earliest opportunity." To do that, you have to be reading the sights as they are coming into the A box. With some experience at different distances, you will learn how the sights need to look to get the A. Then fire the shot as soon as you see that. At 50 yards of course, they need to be perfectly lined up. But at 5 - 7 yards, they don't. And as was mentioned, Bill Drills are great practice for learning to shoot each A at the earliest opportunity. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhuk Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) Better to do that than try to desperately claw back accuracy you never had to start with lol I started shooting not with a standalone 'pistol' club, but a rifle club that did pistol on the side, and did not have its own range. Around 2-3 mins of IPSC competition per week with no time for training or practice, for 2 years. Ended up completely crap on the accuracy side of things, chock full of adrenalin from only shooting in comps and very little skills...but a shedload of bad, bad habits. Have spent the last 2 years (at a "real" club!) desperately trying to slow down and build up the accuracy I should have been concentrating on to start with (preferably starting out with a .22, which I had never even fired one until last year lol) Believe me when I say that its GOOD that you are concentrating on accuracy first. Speed WILL come later. Attempting to reverse engineer a huge amount of problems after the fact really sucks, I can tell you! Edited April 4, 2014 by zhuk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 The trick lies in learning to shoot each A at the "earliest opportunity." To do that, you have to be reading the sights as they are coming into the A box. Brilliant! As a production shooter I know I need to get my A hits but I don't get extra points for having A's perfectly centered in the A zone. An A is an A regardless. I will remember that i n the match tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RammerJammer Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Buy Stoegers new dryfire book. In the back there is a set of plans. Find the one for Slow but accurate. Work it just as prescribed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caspian38 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 (edited) If you have the mags you might try shooting limited. For me shooting limited with my production gun really helped my shooting. I found that a lot of my issues stemmed from always having to reload. If your thinking about running out of ammo, or that you need to reload your not thinking about the shot. If your fundamentals are solid... It sounds like what's holding you back is mental. I highly doubt getting your sights on target is what is killing your times. I would try having someone else video tape you , so you can see your movement through the stage. In your original post you mention you have mostly alphas ,and no mikes (so accuracy is not the problem). I like to draw, shoot two ,and move to another shooting box ,and shoot two more. You'll find all your time is wasted in moving between the boxes. Set it up in your back yard (dry fire). Ten feet is plenty of distance it's not about the running it's about how you get going after the shot, and getting ready for the next shot in the new box. Video tape this drill (non-helmet view). These times are slow but you can see that the draw and shooting takes a whole three seconds even at c class speed. Draw 1.5 seconds Second shot .5 Starting to move after last shot. You'll watch guys take half a second or more scrunching down so they can start moving. Moving from box to box. Entering the box with no wasted motion and correct foot placement. I prefer left foot into the box first if I am moving right. Looking at target. Body settled into shooting position. The movement should be logical, precise, and free of waste. Getting sights in A zone .5 Next shot .5 For a base line focus on the movement not the shots ,and aim at the berm, fire a shot, run to the other box, and fire a shot into the berm. That's how long it should be taking to move from box to box. Then add a reload and your times moving between boxes need to stay the same. If you dont have a shot timer get one... It's a huge part of getting better as it instantly tells you what your really wasting time on. Post a video with all the times (not just how long it took ), and let the guys critique it. Edited April 8, 2014 by caspian38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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