Nik Habicht Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 The RM should rule that it goes to Arb if the Stage staff can't come to a conclusion. I was taught the RM can't overturn a call. After all, he didn't see what happened. Kevin, I think you're mostly correct. My procedure -- when acting as an RM -- is to talk to the shooter, and then to interview the stage staff following any dispute. In the event of a DQ that was in dispute, I'd probably poll the staff members individually, and one of the things I'd probe is how certain they were..... If they remain confident that they saw the shooter break the 180 for example, of course I won't overrule that..... If on the other hand they all waffle, then it might be a different story..... Bottomline -- if they're confident in their call, it stands.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 To overrule a range officer who made a DQ call (assuming it is backed up by the rules) is to say I don't trust your judgment, or you are not truthful in what you say you observed. Either way, I won't work under those circumstances. And I'm on board with that 100%. I would just want to assure myself that you had observed something that should lead to disqualification, and that you were confident in the call..... But then I don't want stage staff hashing calls out with a competitor -- because that takes time away from simply moving shooters through the stage. So I'll take whatever time it takes to discuss the situation and explain or defend your call..... My theory is that the RM should take on any hassle -- because a relaxed stage staff is a happy stage staff..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Filiaga Posted March 21, 2014 Author Share Posted March 21, 2014 Its interesting that some of you think it is ok to drop a unloaded gun after "unload and show clear".....how about dropping the gun after "Make ready" before a mag is inserted and chamber loaded? Also, most of you know that things can happen really fast, RO's touching/tackling shooters can be as dangerous at the violation itself, don't you think? I am very happy to see that most of you stand by the RO's call. The rules are there for a reason.....all of them......especially the "Safety" ones. I believe that the RO did not want to fight the battle with the MD in front of everyone, but chose to use the situation as a learning experience for everyone off of the range after the match instead of at that moment...... One last question. For all you Range owners/operators, how would you react if you found out the club officers/MD's using/leasing your range were not following USPSA safety rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZombieHunter Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) I'm not an RO, but I would support what happened there. My guess would be that the majority of new shooters have not read the rule book before their first match ...... The majority of new shooters don't even know there is a rule book... Ever race one of your buddies to see who was faster? Can you receipt all the olympic rules of track? 70% of the guys at club matches are there to have a good time, they feed your club money so you can have practice, props, and events.. You start to DQ those guys for every mistake they make and they stop coming. Now I'm not an RO, but I can't figure out how the RO could of been doing everything he was suppose to be, and someone was able to put their hammer down, drop their gun, bend over, pick it up, all before the RO could say "Stop"... Edited March 21, 2014 by ZombieHunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) Well Nik,I agree also with you 100 percent:) The RO/CRO has to be able to look the shooter in the eye and tell them what they observed with absolute conviction. No well I think, or maybe this or maybe that. Edited March 21, 2014 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Well Nik,I agree also with you 100 percent:) The RO/CRO has to be able to look the shooter in the eye and tell them what they observed with absolute conviction. No well I think, or maybe this or maybe that. And that's exactly what I'm looking for. If the RO is certain, and the correct rule has been applied correctly, then I can back that up for as long as it takes to reach resolution..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitsapshooter Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 The MD was wrong. The line was not clear and the COF was not complete. The DQ was correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuelie777 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I believe this post is getting off to popper calibration. If you drop your gun during the COF, then the rules are extremely clear. DQ. New shooter, GM, or not, the safety aspect of the rulebook is very clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okiestovepipe Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 A well seasoned Range Officer DQ's a New Shooter. After the "If clear hammer down" command the shooter presses the trigger and quickly goes to holster and drops his gun. The New shooter immediately before he can be stopped picked up his gun. The RO then DQ's the shooter, as the RO turns around he is approached by the Match Director and the Assistant Match director who saw the error. Both spoke out against the DQ and insisted that the shooter be given a break because he was not told about picking up a dropped gun and that he was not DQed. The RO said that he DQed the shooter for dropping the gun before the "Range is Clear" command. Then turned to the shooter and congratulated him for his lucky day....The RO did not continue to argue in favor of the DQ, instead he let the decision of the Match Director stand and did not break out the rule book. What would you have done if you were the RO? Whats your thoughts on how the Match Director handled the situation? With the information given, I would hope that I would have done the proper thing and call a DQ as this RO had done. The squad should talk with the DQed shooter to let him know, that it is not "if you get DQed, it is when you get DQed." In short it happens to almost every one at one time or another, and you got this one out of the way early. To paraphrase Bill Murry in Caddy Shack "So you have that going for you." The MD, should learn to trust his people on the front line who make a the hard judgement calls. If he can not do this, maybe he does not need to be a MD. I see this not so much as a Rules issue but a management issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glandry51 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I have been shooting for a little over a year now and my opinion: Follow the rulebook. There is no rule that can be bent for new shooters, especially not a safety violation. It is a DQ, use it as a learning experience. I shoot at 7 different local club matches and at times it is difficult to know the rules b/c they are enforced differently based on who/where you are shooting. This is a detriment to the sport. If the rule says a dropped gun during a COF is a DQ...it is a DQ. If the rules says that by firing until the popper falls constitutes a legal run and you cannot challenge...then the run stands. You are not doing this sport any favors by bending the rules to fit your likings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 We have a rule book that applies to local matches all the way thru the Nationals. You follow the rules no matter what level the match is. If not then don't have any rule book for any match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Dropped gun during COF---DQ Picked up a dropped gun---DQ I would have handed off the timer and spent some time with the shooter. Sharing some of my, or witnesse, screw ups. Try and get him to see the why so he comes back. Of course I also cover this scenario specifically in my new shooter briefing. And for new shooters I also cover rules throughout the day when appropriate. Such as watch the 180 here, see that right array? I believe as an RO we should teach new shooters as they go. Yes, they should know the rule book...it's my job to get them to want to. Also my job to recommend RO class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avezorak Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Dont be the RO who "bends the rules just a little" because then you have others trying to get a little break. Its a slippery slope, IMO. Most shooters want to do right and follow the rulebook, whether it benefits them or not. But there will always be those to whom you give an inch and they try to take a mile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I'm not an RO, but I would support what happened there. My guess would be that the majority of new shooters have not read the rule book before their first match and if they don't have an experienced shooter guiding them through their first few matches, they might break a lot of rules. Depending on who that new shooter was, had he been DQd at his very first match, he might not have ever shot another one. I do realize that safety is extremely important, but so is building the sport. Now is where you blast me with "So where do you draw the line?"...... This situation is one that could easily happen to ANYONE at ANY range where there are new shooters. So, let's look at how this could have occured and what the possible courses of action were and should have been and what we can do and say about them. First off, I don't bet, but in this case I might make an exception. there were an awful lot of 'holier than thous' cast about on the first page of this thread. Anyone of you ever look at the situation in its totality before making your judgements? New shooter. OK, Who gave him his pre-match safety briefing? Did he actually get one? Was it just watch what others do and oh, don't point the gun back that-a way? or was it 30-45 minutes going over the SAFETY rules and maybe a couple minutes of how the match works and a brief live-fire check to make sure that he could load, holster, draw, fire, unload, show clear and re-holster? So the new shooter first match dropped his gun that the RO had just cleared. He quickly picked it up. This is TECHNICALLY a DQ. It is also a fantastic teaching moment that the new shooter will likely never forget. We could DQ him and by the rules we are supposed to. OR we could explain in GREAT DETAIL how this was supposed to go down and that because he had a crappy safety briefing we are not sending him home, but we are going to be making sure that he gets the proper training for safety that he should have already received. He will then likely come back, grow into the sport and maybe someday be the RO/RM?MD with a new shooter under his wing. We can chase him off or we can nurture him. This said. I would probably and this is very dependent upon his attitude, have allowed him to continue AFTER the enhanced safety briefing. If he was a hot dog with the attitude, then no, I would have DQ'd him. We need people in this sport and we are better off training the new guys than we are sending them away thinking that we are a bunch of A-holes and he goes away thinking that he knows what he needs to know and hurts himself or another. Had a similar situation last week. Well not all that similar. we run a twice monthly 'practice' match at our indoor range. Part of that is to run the new shooters through about 1-1/2 hours of classroom and then take them out on the range, have them do an 8 shoot live fire safety check after which we run them through the match with a mentor. It has worked very well for us. But we had a gentleman, (I'd say older gentleman, but at my age that is getting rarer) that just didn't have the basics down to a point we could let him loose. We took him aside and showed him what he needed to work on, talked to him about a couple other disciplines at the club where he could practice the basics until he was confident and then come back, he and we all left happy. The Safety Brief and Live Fire check are VERY important and are integral parts of our safety record. Take them away and bad things can happen. Would I be lenient on all issues? NO, not only NO, but HELL NO. AD? Launch one over a berm? Break the 180? Ammo on the well marked safe table? Handling his gun away from the RO? No, he gets the lecture,the explanation and the trip home. This actually makes me wonder, What if he remembered that under the direct supervision of the RO, he COULD handle his gun part of the safety brief? Maybe he was doing everything he was told? at least in his own mind. The RO was right there, he wasn't wandering about the range, he didn't drop his gun in the parking lt, he was right there with the RO. Rules are great, and they are 100% necessary, but we need to look carefully at the specific situation. Sometimes a little discretion is needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mturnbull333 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 In this situation it was completely up to the RO, the shooter had unloaded and showed clear but dropped the gun during reholster, obviously the gun was in a safe condition so it would be completely up to the RO. On a side note my daughter was in a junior shoot off at a large area championship when a junior shooter dropped his gun in front of a crowd of several hundred people, the MD was running the event and let it go, kid even picked up his own gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glandry51 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 So where do you draw the line? What constitues a new shooter? Why does he/she get a break from the rules and others don't? What rules do we allow him to break and what ones do we enforce? I shot a local match recently and was squadded with a well know shooter. (Well known as on the World Shoot Team). And that person broke several rules and was never penalized b/c of their name. That turns as many shooters off to the sport as DQ'ing one for a safety violation. During that same match I was shooting a classifier and had a malfunction. I racked the gun with my finger in the trigger guard. I wasn't penalized but was told about it after I shot. I voluntarily withdrew. We cannot allow any rules to be broken for the "good of keeping people in the sport." It is doing more harm than good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben b. Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 In this situation it was completely up to the RO, the shooter had unloaded and showed clear but dropped the gun during reholster, obviously the gun was in a safe condition so it would be completely up to the RO. On a side note my daughter was in a junior shoot off at a large area championship when a junior shooter dropped his gun in front of a crowd of several hundred people, the MD was running the event and let it go, kid even picked up his own gun. Incorrect. The COF is active until the RO calls "Range is Clear". A dropped gun, loaded or unloaded, during a COF is a DQ. This is crystal clear. 8.3.8 “Range Is Clear” – This declaration signifies the end of the Course of fire. Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move forward to score, patch, reset targets etc. 10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling ... 10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded or not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Holier than thou. Really? For enforcing our games rules? Call me the pope I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mturnbull333 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Ben I'm well aware of the rules but thanks for the quote, but the RO IS in charge of the course of fire, all calls are his to make that was the point I was making, I'm not gonna get in a argument over who is right and who is wrong, I have been a RO for awhile and have let a few things slide, if your a RO and say you haven't with a new shooter I call BS, on that same note I have DQ'd a shooter on his first course of fire, it's always up to the RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben b. Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I'm pointing out that in this situation it is not "completely up to the RO", as you posted. The rules in that situation clearly say DQ. If the RO chooses not to do that, then both the RO and the shooter are not following the rules. It's not the end of the world, but it does not fit within USPSA rules. If you were to say, "Sometimes I don't follow the rules because I am kind to a new shooter/my buddy/etc", that would be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ty Hamby Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I would have DQ-ed the shooter. I would have then handed him one of the clubs free match cards and invited him back for the next match. I would have advised him on how to access the rule book and tell him to read up on the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glandry51 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Why not just stop the shooter as soon as you suspect REF? If the RO witnesses good hits in the cal circle or above and the popper doesn't go down, especially if there was other steel on the stage that went down no problem, why not stop the shooter there? It's not specified in the rules that a shooter should be stopped if the RO suspects REF, but I can't find where it's not allowed. App C1 #6 lists the competitor's options when a popper doesn't fall, but does not mention the RO's options. A shooter stopped by the RO for a suspected REF would be a reshoot supported by the rules, since it's not a safety issue (DQ, squib, etc). Why let the shooter continue to fire 5,10,etc shots at a popper until they finally knock it down, only to then grant a reshoot that's specifically not allowed by the rules? One reason not to stop the shooter is b/c the RO does not know what ammo the shooter is using. Possible that the shooter is using underpowered handloads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Filiaga Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 Thanks for the Hi-Jack of this thread guys!! What a shitty week, probably should not be typing right now, a little liquiored up.......... A family member shot and killed himself by accident a couple of days ago, age 49......a friend, long time gun guy, hunter, shooter put a 45 slug into chest....... We have gun handling guidelins for a reason.....I don't like to call them safety rules because the only safety is between the ears... ALWAYS pay ATTENTION.....mistakes CAN last forever. Inforce these guidelines always, don't worry about hurt feelings or chasing folks away.....it aint worth it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 A family member shot and killed himself by accident a couple of days ago, age 49......a friend, long time gun guy, hunter, shooter put a 45 slug into chest....... We have gun handling guidelins for a reason.....I don't like to call them safety rules because the only safety is between the ears... ALWAYS pay ATTENTION.....mistakes CAN last forever. Inforce these guidelines always, don't worry about hurt feelings or chasing folks away.....it aint worth it!! I am very sorry for your loss. That truly sucks, and your point is well-taken. Safety is no joke. Condolences to you and your family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Bill, I too am sorry to hear about your friend. I've split the popper discussion to a new thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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