Why aren't sigs more popular in shooting sports?

[grouse]

Shot a friends 226 dak and it shoots the lights out. Very accurate. Why aren't these more popular?

[JAFO]

In no particular order, these are some reasons I've heard from people considering a competition gun:

1) High cost (vs entry level Glock/XD/M&P)

2) Low capacity (relative to other guns for Limited)

3) High bore axis (relative to CZ/Glock/etc)

4) DA/SA trigger (vs striker-fired)

Edited March 14, 2014 by JAFO

[Fantom919]

Yup JAFO pretty much hit the nail on the head. If it works for you then run with it!

I've started with a 226 Elite in 9mm and feel like it's been a good gun for me to start with. For a beginner to guns and the sport, a sig simply just works and I don't have to worry about some of the delicate aspects that nicer guns have to worry about. I've never had a FTF,FTE in over 1500 rounds or any malfunction for that matter. (I shoot production btw)

Having shot glocks and CZ, i will say the higher bore axis does make it seem like youre waiting for the muzzle to drop more than the other guns..but I've seen some pretty good people run insanely fast with them so I can't really complain until I'm at that level.

[SilverBolt]

Add to the above the lack of aftermarket support. Glock, M&P. Springfield all have plenty of parts suppliers to chose from. Want a magazine extension for a Sig? Good luck.

[galt11]

I love my mine and have shot it in competition as my primary prod. gun for years but I agree with all the comments above. I know someone who pushed the factory very hard to rectify the situation and it seems all that came of that is the sponsorship of Max Michael.

Adam

[RogerS]

Someone does make a mag extension for the 226s and 229s...you can get up to 18 in .40 and 24 in 9mm

cheers

[blaster113]

As mentioned above the some of the factors turning people away from SIGs are the high retail cost for a new gun, the DA/SA trigger that most people arent willing to learn, and the high bore axis. The nearly complete lack of aftermarket support doesnt help things. simple things like finding a good sight setup for our game is a PITA.

I use a 9mm P226 Elite for Production. Tried some of the popular choices used in Production and I wasnt blown away by any particular gun. Always loved SIGs so thats why I use them. Its the Indian not the arrow; if I recall a Beretta was used to win a few National championships.....

Edited March 23, 2014 by blaster113

[B45C22]

If the guy who shoots for sig paid STI so that he could put Sig on the side of his STI just so he wouldn't have to shoot a sig, I think that says enough for me to stay away from them. Besides that, they suck in generally all other areas.

[jcc7x7]

Max had the gun custom built by dan bedell to shoot open with. Not a fair reference IMO

I'm a fan of SIG but don't play with them in uspsa any more since I'm out of the "trade" now.

After area 7 last year at SIG ! I couldn't get a part for my x-5 while at the factory I gave up playing THEIR game.

Still own several and like the basic 220/226 but I'm done using them for game guns.

[technetium-99m]

Not a darn thing wrong with a 226 for production. They can be set up very nicely.

Most of the aftermarket support of the plastic wonder nines is unnecessary IMO.

Edited April 2, 2014 by technetium-99m

[blaster113]

I just came back home after shooting at Area 1 with an alloy 9mm P226R in Production. My stainless Elite was problematic due to extraction issues so I decided not to risk using it. The match itself was a definitely a Level III caliber match with some tough shots. Some feedback to my earlier post;

1. After firing 330+ rounds over 3 days I noticed the high bore axis causes some muzzle flip which seemed more pronounced when in awkward shooting positions such as squatting, leaning around a wall, etc.

My stainless Elite seems like it has slightly less muzzle flip due to the increased weight.

2. The D/A first shot while smooth and at about 9lbs caused me to find an open full target to put my first shot on vs. another target with hardcover or no shoots on it. This slowed down my engagement order a

little on some arrays costing a tiny bit of time. Striker fired guns don't have this limitation.

3. The pistol was 100% reliable. As expected of a SIG.

4. Once a little dust blows into the metal grip one has to be a little careful with reloads as that dirt will cause the metal magazine you are trying to stuff in there to bind a little. Had to do a tap/rack drill but that

was not the gun's fault. Plastic gripped guns which are fed with plastic magazines seemed to have less of a problem with this. When shooting in the desert this is a concern with the dry dusty conditions.

5. The P226's inherent accuracy was a plus on some difficult shots. No need for additional accuracy work. The gun will shoot little tiny groups if you do your part.

6. I watched a Production GM burn down a stage with a G34 with a stage time that was a little over half of my own. He shot the G34 like an Open gun. I couldn't believe it when I saw it. I realize that is why

GMs are GMs, but I simply think that for the vast majority of us its hard to shoot a P226 as fast as we could with other platforms, and that other platforms are a little easier to shoot well.

My overall impression is that for the average Production shooter (like me) the P226 is fine, especially when only shooting at the local level. Other platforms like the Glock are a little easier to shoot well. Granted, up until 6 weeks ago Production was a once in a while thing for me. If I was to commit to Production full time I still most likely would put the P226 back in the safe and buy a G34.

[rack&roll]

I just came back home after shooting at Area 1 with an alloy 9mm P226R in Production. My stainless Elite was problematic due to extraction issues so I decided not to risk using it. The match itself was a definitely a Level III caliber match with some tough shots. Some feedback to my earlier post;

1. After firing 330+ rounds over 3 days I noticed the high bore axis causes some muzzle flip which seemed more pronounced when in awkward shooting positions such as squatting, leaning around a wall, etc.

My stainless Elite seems like it has slightly less muzzle flip due to the increased weight.

2. The D/A first shot while smooth and at about 9lbs caused me to find an open full target to put my first shot on vs. another target with hardcover or no shoots on it. This slowed down my engagement order a

little on some arrays costing a tiny bit of time. Striker fired guns don't have this limitation.

3. The pistol was 100% reliable. As expected of a SIG.

4. Once a little dust blows into the metal grip one has to be a little careful with reloads as that dirt will cause the metal magazine you are trying to stuff in there to bind a little. Had to do a tap/rack drill but that

was not the gun's fault. Plastic gripped guns which are fed with plastic magazines seemed to have less of a problem with this. When shooting in the desert this is a concern with the dry dusty conditions.

5. The P226's inherent accuracy was a plus on some difficult shots. No need for additional accuracy work. The gun will shoot little tiny groups if you do your part.

6. I watched a Production GM burn down a stage with a G34 with a stage time that was a little over half of my own. He shot the G34 like an Open gun. I couldn't believe it when I saw it. I realize that is why

GMs are GMs, but I simply think that for the vast majority of us its hard to shoot a P226 as fast as we could with other platforms, and that other platforms are a little easier to shoot well.

My overall impression is that for the average Production shooter (like me) the P226 is fine, especially when only shooting at the local level. Other platforms like the Glock are a little easier to shoot well. Granted, up until 6 weeks ago Production was a once in a while thing for me. If I was to commit to Production full time I still most likely would put the P226 back in the safe and buy a G34.

Just a really great and informative post! I love my P-226 ST Elite, but all of the things you mentioned keep it in the safe, mostly.

[amish_rabbi]

I love my 229 and its what I started shooting competition with (IDPA) but having moved on to different guns, I dont think I would go back for a competition gun. I have yet to try an x5 and that might make me change my mind (the new ones do look awesome).

[Ken_Bird]

Add to the above the lack of aftermarket support. Glock, M&P. Springfield all have plenty of parts suppliers to chose from. Want a magazine extension for a Sig? Good luck.

Ok, get one at Taylor Freelance, or check Sig Talk fourm there is a guy building one there as well.

[Ken_Bird]

I love my 229 and its what I started shooting competition with (IDPA) but having moved on to different guns, I dont think I would go back for a competition gun. I have yet to try an x5 and that might make me change my mind (the new ones do look awesome).

X-5 Lwt is what I am shooting. I would not pay $1,000 more for a STI. or Stv this is a great gun.

[JGus]

I was shooting a Sig X5 L1 .40s&w in Limited (from the original X line of guns, not the new design X-5's) for awhile. Even with mag extensions, the best i could do was 17+1. It was never really much of an issue until I shot my first level III USPSA match. People shooting STI's and CZ's that could get anywhere from 20 to 22 in the mag really had me at a disadvantage. So, begrudgingly I also moved to an STI Edge. I really like the Edge, but I love the X5.

To this day, the X5 L1 is the absolute best shooting gun I've ever shot. It shoots the tightest groups of any gun I've ever shot (including my high end 1911's), it's the most reliable, competition ready gun right out of the box you will find. Just an amazing gun. But, the restriction on X5 mag capacity for Limited division was just too much of a disadvantage. If they could somehow get 19 to 20 rounds of .40s&w in the mag and still meet the 140mm rule I'm definitely going back to it.

In Production division i was shooting a Sig X5 Allround 9mm that had trigger work done by Sig custom shop. Again, unbelievable gun. It will shoot possibly the tightest groups of any gun you will ever shoot. However, I am now shooting a CZ Accu Shadow with the short reset trigger, front barrel bushing, trigger worked over, etc. And frankly, the trigger on the CZ Accu Shadow is just significantly better in DA mode, and better in SA mode. And keep in mind that is compared to an X5 trigger tuned by Sig custom. Of course, the X5 Allround has a decocking lever while the CZ Accu Shadow does not. So, it only makes sense the trigger will be lighter than compared to a trigger with a decocker.

I think my X5 L1 is as close to the perfect gun that I will ever find. I just wish it had more mag capacity in a 140mm mag in .40s&w.

Edited May 21, 2014 by JGus

[JAFO]

Of course, the X5 Allround has a decocking lever while the CZ Accu Shadow does not. So, it only makes sense the trigger will be lighter than compared to a trigger with a decocker.

I'm curious why that would be. The decocking lever doesn't contact anything until it's depressed, and then it only lifts the sear out of the SA hammer notch. Why would that cause a difference in the trigger weight?

I dry fired a friend's Tanfoglio, and the SA pull was super light. Lighter than I'd like. But the reset was really nice. I really do wish Sig had come up with some kind of shorter reset for the Allround. I suppose I could add an SRT, but then I'd be throwing a non-mated sear in with my hand-fitted hammer, or I'd have to have someone mate the two.

[JGus]

Well, let me restate what I said earlier. I wasn't very clear. You possibly can get a decocker trigger as light as a non-decocking trigger, it just takes more work within the sear area. A competent gunsmith could make the decocking trigger as light as a non-decocked trigger (I have a CZ SP01 Tactical 9mm that Matt Mink of Automatic Accuracy tuned to a 6.5# DA and a 2.5# SA). However, with a decocked trigger vs a non-decocked trigger, the decocking trigger will have more pretravel. With a non-decocking trigger, most all of the pretravel can be eliminated. With a decocking trigger, because of the firing pin block mechanism, you can't do much about the pretravel unless you remove the firing pin block system, which wouldn't be a good idea.

On my Sig X5 Allround, Sig Custom Shop did all they could to the trigger. But the pretravel is still significantly more than on my CZ Accu Shadow, and the DA trigger is significantly heavier. And they said it was tuned as good as it's going to get. The X5 Allround is a fantastic gun, but there is no question I prefer the CZ strictly because of the better trigger.

Edited May 22, 2014 by JGus

[Jayohee]

I'm the only one in my orientation class (12 ppl) and in 3 matches that has shot a Sig. Everyone seems to have a Glock, or CZ for Production. My guess is a combination of the DA/SA and price tag. There are also less aftermarket options. For my P226 no one but Bruce Gray makes a target rear sight. I had to cut out a piece of black electrical tape to cover the dots as I hate standard 3 dot systems.

I have however purchased a Glock 34 that I plan on using very soon. I prefer the consistency of the trigger pull and I find I am actually more accurate with it.

[Ken_Bird]

If the guy who shoots for sig paid STI so that he could put Sig on the side of his STI just so he wouldn't have to shoot a sig, I think that says enough for me to stay away from them. Besides that, they suck in generally all other areas.

Respect you opinion, but I think your way off base. I have owned two STI guns. I now shoot a P226 X Five Lwt. My honest thought is that this is a suburb pistol. Now to say it sucks. Wow ! Are you pitching or catching. Thanks for your thoughts.

[Ken_Bird]

Someone does make a mag extension for the 226s and 229s...you can get up to 18 in .40 and 24 in 9mm

cheers

10 / 4 Good buddy.

[JGus]

If the guy who shoots for sig paid STI so that he could put Sig on the side of his STI just so he wouldn't have to shoot a sig, I think that says enough for me to stay away from them. Besides that, they suck in generally all other areas.

Respect you opinion, but I think your way off base. I have owned two STI guns. I now shoot a P226 X Five Lwt. My honest thought is that this is a suburb pistol. Now to say it sucks. Wow ! Are you pitching or catching. Thanks for your thoughts.

I agree. My personal opinion is that my Sig X5 L1 .40 is a better all around gun than my STI Edge .40, with one exception. Magazine capacity. Even with Roger Sherman's extended basepads to keep the mag under the 140mm rule per USPSA Limited division, I can only get 17+1 in my X5 of .40. With my Edge and with extended basepads to get to the 140mm, i can get 20+1 in some, and 21+1 in a few others. It may not seem like a big difference, but anyone that shoots in USPSA competition knows it's a huge deal. But as I've said, I personally believe the X5 L1 is the absolute best gun that one can shoot in all area's except mag capacity. But if you don't need max mag capacity for competition, it's the best. Period.

[JGus]

And Max Michel, Sigs sponsored shooter, shoots an STI/SVI based custom gun in Open division of USPSA, not an X5. He does shoot an X5 L1 in Limited 10 and an Allround in Production. But, he RARELY ever competes in these divisions. He competes almost exclusively in Open.