3gun penalty

[Glock3422]

I'm not wanting to sound harsh here but I really believe excessive penalties for not shooting targets are nothing more than a fix for poor course design. If I as a stage designer come up with a stage that is so difficult that not shooting a target can result in a better score than shooting it, the competitors are not the problem.

I think there is also a common issue that many stage designers have in that they feel they must somehow design stages that will 'test' the top shooters. This mindset leads to stages that punish average shooters. The problem is you can't test the top shooters, they can only test themselves. They have the mental discipline to perform at or close to the top of their ability regardless of the stage difficulty. No problem for the best, punishing for the rest. If anything, the thing that will most often give a great shooter trouble is an easy, wide open stage. A stage that is so easy they don't put much mental prep into shooting it, or has some speed traps that 'seduce' them into trying to go faster than they can. A shooter walking away from a stage thinking, "man, I screwed that one up big time" is not a problem, walking away thinking, "I was screwed before I even pulled the trigger" is.

Way back in the day when I ran a lot of matches my goal in course design was always, 'is the C class shooter going to walk away from this match and say that he had fun'? If the answer was yes, then I felt I had done a good job. This does not mean that that match couldn't be challenging, just that the challenges have to be kept in balance. Keep the shots doable. Keep the targets past 200 yards at least 4moa, 6 would be better. A 3moa target at 300 yards is still no problem for the pros, but the average weekend shooter might as well just skip it and take the 30 second penalty. No matter what targets you put down range the best shooters are going to hit them faster, the only real issue is how hard do you want to make it for everyone else?

Lets use this example. We have a stage that has eight long range rifle targets at the end of it, between 150 and 350 yards. Our shooters are two top competitors and an average shooter. If the targets down range are all small, say 4moa or less. The two pros are not going to think about each other very much, it's focusing on the shots and applying the fundamentals that is important. The average shooter will not make all of the shots and pick up a bunch of penalties. Now make the targets huge, lets say 10moa. Now the two pros have a problem. They both know the other is most likely going to shoot the plates eight for eight, and it's not the fundamentals that are most important, it's how fast you can apply them. Each knows he HAS to be fast to win. So the bigger targets are going to put more mental pressure on the pros and the average shooter will still finish third, but at least he will have had a lot more fun doing it.

The question comes down to, who are you designing the match for? The 25 or so competitors who have a chance at winning, or the other 200 who are doing it just for fun?

My 2 cents.

THIS!

I stopped shooting our local (now big time) 3 gun a year ago because it stopped being fun.

It became about the out of town, logo shirts with big names in the game. Gotta challenge those guys. Hey, plate rack, off hand rifle at 100 yds. That will test them.

Ammo is still tight and too expensive to waste on stages that are either classifiers, or lazy steel challenge exercises.

The fast guys will always win, but you shouldn't design a 100 shooter match for 10 guys.

[toothandnail]

Not to mention, to the OP (hey bud!) it seems like you would have to enforce a penalty for everyone the same across the board.... You miss, you get the penalty. Only selectively giving the penalty to those you deem as having "gamed" is to subjective.

Example - one shooter takes a shot and misses but looks like he tried, no penalty.... But if I take a fast shot and miss, but look like I didn't try hard enough (by your opinion) I'd get a penalty?

Has to be the same penalty for missing for all shooters.

I got THAT (by your opinion) penalty at a match not long ago.

Stage dis. read "shooter must fire at least one shot from all 3 guns".

It was much faster to (in my opinion) to shoot the rifle targets, clean the small steel plates with SG, fire one shot from pistol. Which I did.

RO gave me a penalty because, I didn't TRY to shoot a target, there were none to shoot.

[bikerburgess]

I don't think easier equals better I think some thought needs to go into what the penalty for a miss on a target is and weather the penalty or the difficulty of the shot need to be adjusted to balance the two. Just making all the shots easier is not the solution.

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[barrysuperhawk]

I have been on both sides of this. I have been the MD trying to balance between pros and 1st timers, and I have been the shooter that [depending on the day] either couldn't miss or couldn't hit.

I shot half of a match in Kentucky a few years back without a rear sight on my rifle because my ebrlesuck pack fell over and it broke clean off. I would have been PISSED if they applied extra penalties for not being able to hit. That same year, with that same rifle, I winged a single hail mary shot at a ~585M "bonus target" and hit it. I then proceeded to expend most of the time bonus admiring my handiwork before I went on to clean the rest of the rifle targets with only 2 targets requiring a second shot.

That said, if you MUST alter the rules for special targets, call then BONUS targets. Random shot = 15 sec target not engaged, genuine misses = regular failure to neutralize, Hit = 15 second BONUS, so there is a lot of incentive to hit them all [in excess of what you would not burn by skipping them.]

On the whole I approve more of comparatively easier targets and stages. If more than 5% of your shooters time out or zero a stage with penalties, the stage is not designed correctly. Ive been to matches where 70% of the shooters timed out or earned a whole match worth's of penalties in one or 2 stages, and nobody has fun there. When ONLY the pros even have a chance of clearing the stage clean, you need to simplify.

IOW Jerry and Jessie will always smoke my time on any given stage, but it shouldn't be because of penalties unless I REALLY screw the pooch.

[bikerburgess]

A 15 second bonus to hit IS a 15 second penalty to miss if you competition is hitting it then you need to as well whether your time goes up or their time goes down is immaterial.

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[Alaskapopo]

I like challenging long range stages and I agree with making the penalties double past 100 yards. Hose feasts are fun too but I also like a bit of precision in the match as well.
Pat

[Sterling White]

Local 3g matches should be challenging however not ridiculous. Stages should take the average shooter 60 seconds to complete otherwise you will have backups and run into timeouts. Rifle targets should be 4moa which are clearly marked or outlined so everyone can see it/them or pick it/them out if hidden in the shadows. I shoot 1x (and irons) and routinely practice on 100-400 yd targets. Range time will save you ammo when you do go to a match with targets set at distances. When you do get some range time in it should include precision, shooting from awkward positions, and using the mags to mono pod off of. There is no substitute for practicing skill sets....just sayin.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Sterling White

[springy]

I can't keep from wondering why would you put a smaller penalty on a target at face to face distance, that would be imparative to hit, and a total screw up to miss, and a bigger (double) penalty that is way over there that is not that important to take out right now? I know this ain't training, but it don't make sense that it is ok to miss the face to face shot, but worse to miss the long shot. Am I missing something?

And what is with all this desire to punish people. You may need some counseling. Why isn't the focus on reward? If a 325 yard shot is a 20 second bonus, everyone is going to lay into it and do their absolute best to hit it. Ain't nobody gonna skip it.

4 moa targets? I haven't seen a 4moa 300 yard target in the last 15 years. I see this "4 moa" all the time, but at the matches it's a 10" mgm flasher from 300 out to 400 yards.

less talk, more do, I bump to 3 cents

[MarkCO]

Springy, you might just be shooting the wrong matches.

I use 12" falling plates at 300 yards, 10" flashers at 200 yards, heck, I even run 18x24" gongs at 100 yards for rifle. When I go past 300 yards, it is a full Size Metric with strobes on them. The top guys still win, the 50% guys still shoot 50% and the last place person still has a smile on their face. The target size regulates the speed down to about 4MOA. After that, we just chase away the new shooters we "claim" we are trying to bring into the sport. (And, it is not because I can not hit the small targets either, my 4 best stages ever are long range stages with targets under 3 MOA)

However, I still assert there is no such thing as a bonus target in 3Gun. If the top guys can benefit from hitting, or skipping a target, they will, and that sets the mark for everyone else, usually just screwing over (again) the new shooters.

Edited April 10, 2014 by MarkCO

[Langenator]

I've seen a bonus target at least once: 580 yards, off the clock, you were given two shots. Hit with the first, 20 seconds off your time; second, 10 seconds.

Hit with the first shot with an M1 Garand: biggest smile ever.

[bikerburgess]

And what is with all this desire to punish people. You may need some counseling. Why isn't the focus on reward? If a 325 yard shot is a 20 second bonus, everyone is going to lay into it and do their absolute best to hit it. Ain't nobody gonna skip it.

Most multigun scoring is penalty based you don't earn anything by hitting the targets you just avoid the penalty for missing it. On your 325 up target what is the difference between adding 20 seconds for missing it and subtracting 20 seconds for hitting it? Either way of you spend 19 seconds getting a hit you end up better off.

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[barrysuperhawk]

The difference is mostly psychological, but there is one critical difference between an excessive penalty. Not all 3 gun competitors even have access to ranges that go past 200y to practice/zero at.

There was a match I went to a few years back and I was admittedly unprepared. I chose a rifle that was not well suited to the longer distance game, and I had issues with the longer range targets, so in 2 stages [out of nine] I earned more time in penalties than my class winner's complete time for the entire match, because I actually tried to hit the targets and timed out in addition to getting all of the penalties. The unintended consequence of the high-penalty targets was that once I figured out I had a problem, I didn't even bother to try. I did exactly what those penalties were designed to discourage, I didn't even try to hit the longer targets, I just burned rounds down range as fast as I could to avoid the engagement penalties and took the misses, monster penalties and all. In retrospect, comparing my scores to others in my own class, stage by stage, I was much better off doing that. Thus, the penalties that were inspired to discourage gaming, actually encouraged it.

I also know of a couple of shooters that stopped coming to that match because they also had issues with the longer range and the super high penalties. When less than a half dozen individual targets in a 9 stage, 3 day match can take you from the middle of the pack to the next best thing to last, that seems unbalanced. To borrow from USPSA We are overemphasizing the D at the expense of the V and the C...

OTOH, I don't run my own 3 gun matches anymore, so I will obviously abide by whatever rules the MD of whatever match I am shooting comes up with... and LIKE it...

[ziebart]

I agree the difference is mostly psychological, but there are certainly issues with bonus targets outlined below.

Additionally I would disagree that the high penalty values encouraged you to choose to skip those targets. Once you realized that you had a problem with your gear then you would have chosen not to try to engage those far targets regardless of penalty value, or at least you should have. The difference would have been the outcome of scores. I have seen peoples scopes come out of zero so it is not always being unprepared.

Given most matches use a time plus points scoring system where the stage winner gets 100 points and everyone gets a percentage based on that the bonus targets can affect the match scores more than penalty targets. Here is the math, it is assuming that both shooters shot the COF in the same 100 second raw time.

Shooter A: 100 seconds - 40 second bonus = 60 second total time

Shooter B: 100 seconds - 0 second bonus = 100 second total time

60/100= 60 stage points for shooter B

Shooter A: 100 seconds + 0 second penalty= 100 second total time

Shooter B: 100 seconds + 40 second penalty= 140 second total time

100/140 = 71.43 stage points for shooter B

The closer to zero total time the worse the effect is. With the worst case being that the top shooter went negative with their time. If the shooter went exactly 0 seconds then everyone else in the match would get 0 stage points because 0 divided by anything is 0.

Since the match is based on the totals of stage points shooter B who did not hit the target fared better when it was a penalty instead of a bonus. A match director assigning bonuses is hurting the scores of those shooters who do not hit the targets more than a MD who assigned a penalty.

Now the MD could look at all this math and calculate the correct bonus value to make the shooters feel better about skipping a target but it is much easier to just use penalties. Maybe explain to shooters that there is no shame in skipping a target that is too difficult.

I agree that some matches focus on the long range more than others, but it is ok as each has their own flavor and people can choose to shoot what they want.

[barrysuperhawk]

There is a slight problem with your analogy, and there was a slight problem with mine. The problem is the difference between requiring competitors to TRY and the difference requiring competitors to SUCCEED. In my case, my choice was poor planning, but OTOH we do keep score in this sport, and when you require your competitor to SUCCEED, you don't end up with 100 sec vs 100 sec times, you end up with 100 sec and a hit or a 180 sec timeout, and half a dozen 60 second penalties AND Failures to Engage, because the competitor burned 2 full magazines and $50 worth of ammo at the targets he was not hitting and didn't get to a couple of others.

We are 3 gun shooters, we are the reason the maximum par time was invented, we will burn 3 magazines at a single target if we keep missing. The problem, IMHO, is the "professional shooters" that game the stages in the first place. Unfortunately, IMHO, the solution is worse than the problem was.

[ziebart]

That goes to telling the shooters it is ok to shoot one round at a target and move on. This is a game and it should be played as such. It is not the MDs fault the competitor chooses to empty three magazines at a single target. I do not think that the match requires competitors to succeed because we do not say if you do not hit this target you are not allowed to continue competing. It is the shooters choice to stay at the one target and not move on. I get it we came to shoot and if the MD put out a target we should hit it. At a certain point each individual needs to know their limits.

If we want to ensure no competitor times out then we could eliminate all difficult tasks and let the speed determine the winner. Even if we make all targets hittable with a 4 MOA size and contrasting backer and paint between every shooter there will still be those individuals who are not able to hit them. There will always be the guy who does not know where his slugs hit, or how to shoot a MGM spinner, or texas star. Or say hey there are 5 targets you only get 10 rounds. That would save people from burning 3 mags into a berm. We have done that at a local match before.

Like you said, with regards to running matches, neither you nor I are current MDs so I will shoot the matches I do and like the rules they use.

[uncledoc]

Good advice Ziebart.....

[MarkCO]

...but OTOH we do keep score in this sport...

...The problem, IMHO, is the "professional shooters" that game the stages in the first place.

So you take issue with a person who plays the "sport" in such a way as to garner the best score? You can not "game" a well designed stage! I have had competitors come and ask me "Can I do xyz?" My response is "What does the WSB and rules say?" If a "gamer" figures out a method to shoot stages that gets them better scores, they are using all their tools, not blindly following a path laid out by the stage designer. To me, figuring out stages is but one tool a quality 3Gunner needs. I specifically work the metrics of stages, as I design them, where there are options and choices to challenge the shooters ability to plan the stage, even to their strength. I've even been known to drop in a few targets where the risk reward calculation taxes even the top shooters in the game. It is still a game until there is no timer and the targets shoot back.

Just yesterday, I was talking to a pistol GM on his way to MG Nationals. One piece of advice I gave as a new to 3Gun competitor was to not camp out on a long range target. 3 or 4 shots max and move on, depending on the penalty. That is not gaming, that is getting the best score.

If we want to ensure no competitor times out then we could eliminate all difficult tasks and let the speed determine the winner.

Done...it is called 3Gun Nation. Not better or worse, just a different style than what "Outlaw 3Gun" had been up until a few years ago.

Edited April 15, 2014 by MarkCO

[Moltke]

I think what match directors should be going after is a "reasonable clause" type of challenge for shooters.

If its reasonable to expect that the average shooter of all divisions will be able to see & hit a target downrange without spending a magazine on it, then its appropriate. If its not reasonable to expect that, then its not a reasonable 3 Gun target. 4 MOA and painted is reasonable.

The faster and better shooters are going to be ahead of the rest of us whether you put barn doors downrange or silver dollars so be careful how you start to skew a match to favor one discipline of shooting over another.

What if there were 2 inch blaze orange dots stuck on an IPSC at 18 yards to be shot with the pistol only? That would certainly skew the game in another direction... And at what point do you leave it and move on? Is that gaming it - or should you be expected to dump 3 magazines of pistol ammo into some bad idea "F You" target?

If the average shooter from all divisons can't be expected to see & hit a target then it may be appropriate for another discipline of shooting such as designated marksman shooting or bullseye matches, but its not good for 3 Gun.

[ziebart]

MarkCo

I didn't want to say 3 gun nation had easy targets as I have not shot any of their matches. But yes it is just a different style of match no better or worse. Much more like a pistol match almost all about speed. It looks fun to me.

I shot a 3GN club match in St George and they had so many choose your gun targets that stage planning was probably the hardest part. No shot was that difficult unless you chose the wrong gun for your skill set.

[CJW]

I think it is safe to say that since every major match fills up pretty much instantly that none of the MDs are under any particular obligation to change anything. Go to the matches with stages and rules you like, and don't go to the other ones. Somebody will take your spot there, no problem.

For me, personally, I really don't like straight time-plus matches, where the difference in times on one single long range stage can utterly swamp decent performances on several shorter, faster stages. Given that I have a choice of where to spend my money, I will probably (and I say probably because good stages still win out, for me, as a deciding factor) choose not to attend matches that do not use 100 point (or similar) normalized stage points. Just my preference, and I am not going to tell any MD running a successful time-plus match that he needs to change on my account.

[Jeff F]

I also prefer the higher penalty for longer targets. We also make it more challenging by using smaller targets at times.

I read here that some people like to dumb it down so everyone can hit the target. It makes you become a better shooter by pushing your limitations. Before I shot 3 gun I had never shot past 100 yards. If I would not have been pushed in the matches I was attending I never would have become a better shooter.

Those that enjoy that type of shooting will come back to the match, those that don't wont.

[pjb45]

I am very new to 3G competition with SMM3G and JJ/Denise's match in Raton.

I had an iron sight shooter on our squad at RM3G, who could not even see the steel at the long distance stage(s). You going to penalize him because he is shooting iron sights and cannot see the target?

My eyesight is 100/200 unassisted. So I get extra penalties because I can not make out a piece of steel, in the shadows at the base of a tree.

Sure with my 10x swaro I can hit steel at 800m all day long if I have enough support for the rifle but JJ does not give you solid shooting platforms throughout his stages. I am not complaining just stating the facts. So if I fire 3-4 shots in earnest but miss, I deserve to have extra penalties. I think not.

Our USPSA section coordinator once said don't make the stage so hard that people will be discouraged and not come back.

[Benelli Chick]

I am very new to 3G competition with SMM3G and JJ/Denise's match in Raton.

I had an iron sight shooter on our squad at RM3G, who could not even see the steel at the long distance stage(s). You going to penalize him because he is shooting iron sights and cannot see the target?

My eyesight is 100/200 unassisted. So I get extra penalties because I can not make out a piece of steel, in the shadows at the base of a tree.

Sure with my 10x swaro I can hit steel at 800m all day long if I have enough support for the rifle but JJ does not give you solid shooting platforms throughout his stages. I am not complaining just stating the facts. So if I fire 3-4 shots in earnest but miss, I deserve to have extra penalties. I think not.

Our USPSA section coordinator once said don't make the stage so hard that people will be discouraged and not come back.

We try really hard to make them all visible with the naked eye, but once you get behind the sights, it can get harder.

I agree with you that it's not fair to penalize you more. It is a hard balance trying to make difficult and challenging shots, that are not TOO hard, but just hard enough.

We are trying to keep all targets at 4 moa, but quite honestly, a 4 moa target at 400yds, seems smaller to me when I just look at it with my eyeballs, than a 4 moa target at 200yds. I know that's not really right, but it's the way they look to me.

We have added wind flags, for target identification and help with the swirly winds that happen out at Whittington.

All we want is for the shooters to really try to hit the target. Shooting a couple of well aimed shots and moving on, is just fine.

I had to do that myself. We had a 650yd target at He-Man. It was a full size IPSC, so more than 4 moa vertically and just a little thinner. I did not understand the drop of a .223 between 600 and 650 yds. (I was shooting wee-man.) I had to give it up! I could see the giant, pink target just fine with the naked eye AND my scope, but I couldn't hit it, and had to let it go. I stayed way too long anyway, but it would've added insult to injury to add a higher penalty on top of that! I looked it up, and I had another 20 inches of drop. Dang it!!!

I just personally hate giving the people who are often trying the hardest a higher penalty just to make sure the fast guys don't blow a target.

Denise

[co-exprs]

I threw 4 shots at the 650 and had to let it go too. I could see it fine, but since I don't have any place to practice that far out, I only had a ballistic calculator to give me an indication as to how high to hold. My irons only adjust to 600, so 650 is largely guess work for me. Even Kuan admitted that it took him 4 shots to hit it and there was a fair bit of luck involved. My intent is to make an honest attempt to hit any target you put in front of me, but that 650 was a bit out side my skill set. To be fair though, the hot pink 650 was highly visible and most of the guys in my squad found it with a bullet. In addition, at HeMan this year, there was only 1 target in the entire match which was smaller than 4moa and difficult to see. All of the targets beyond 200yds had a stable shooting platform such as the ground, a roof and a stone wall.

I noticed that in 2013, HeMan had more challenging long range targets than RM3G. I suspect it will be similar this year as the Johnson's adjust the matches to the slightly different crowds. The penalties are part of the game and a seasoned competitor will take those numbers into consideration. For instance... I know from experience that for any target beyond 400yds I have to dial for range. For me to make a real live honest attempt at hitting a target that far, I have to come off the rifle, dial in my range, acquire my cheek weld, find my target, focus on the front sight, prep the trigger, check my breathing, see my sight picture and then break the shot. That process takes me an average of 6-7sec. If I am presented with a sub 4moa target which is difficult to see and I think there is less than a 50% chance of me hitting it on the first shot, I will be a good sport and make the attempt, but then I won't invest any more time and ammo into it that one target than I have to.

Edited May 22, 2014 by co-exprs

[pjb45]

RM3G is a great match for me.

Heck, I even hit the Barrett bonus target and missed going clean on the shotgun stage on the last bird.

RM3G does a great job of keeping everything in balance.

SMM3G is the only other big match I attended and they do a great job there also.