Atlgentlegiant Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I would like to put this out there and will follow it up with emails to Phil and others. I would like to respectfully request that the recently pulled classifiers be reinstated for clubs and matches with no revolver shooters. I run a club that shoots at an indoor range year round. We have a bay of limited size, decent size but limited, and all shots must go into the trap/backstop downrange. There are a couple more clubs locally with the same issues. I do understand why the classifiers were pulled but in the case of my club and 2 others locally this results in the majority of the classifiers we can run in our bays being taken out of circulation. I think I am down to maybe 5 classifiers I can run right now and only 2 of them have not been run by our club or another local club recently (we have many of the same shooters so we try to work together and stagger classifiers). If classifiers were coming out regularly and I knew we would have a new batch, say in 6 months, this would be a non-issue. When we are looking at new classifiers only coming out every 4-6 years and out of those maybe having 4 we can use indoors then this creates a problem and a severe limitation on keeping the club running and shooters interested. Lets be honest here, while El Prez is a good drill and a classic nobody really likes shooting it as a classifier every 4 months and it has been shot to death. I do understand and agree with the decision from the national level to pull the classifiers but I also believe that the removal should only apply to the affected division. If these classifiers cannot be reinstated then I would request that NROI and the board take special measures to get some new or updated classifiers into the system ASAP and not another 4 years. Sincerely, Chris Briggs President GA22 - North Atlanta Action Shooters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I could comment on what the decision to pull the classifiers says about the decision to introduce R-8-Minor. But I think that the decision just further reinforces the extremely outdated nature of the entire classifier system. It's simply no longer relevant to today's rules and matches. I honestly don't know what the answer is, but the decision to pull all these classifiers is really making things hard for MD's, particularly at local matches. I'm still trying to sort out what this means for our club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Have they been retired? It's been over 2 weeks since the e-mail was sent, but we still don't have any changes to the classifier coursebook or any updates to EZWinScore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 You bring up some very valid points regarding classifiers at indoor ranges. We faced the same problem when I ran matches at Eagle Gun Range in Macon, GA. The only problem I see with your proposal is how would you handle the situation where a 6-shot revolver shooter does show up to the match? You may want to include the suggestion that I first saw made by sperman here on the forum - you can "fix" the pulled classifiers by requiring revolver shooters to perform a reload after 6 shots fired. That puts the 6- and 8-shot revolvers on an even playing field as far as reloads go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlgentlegiant Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 @sperman - The way I read the email was "do not use - official changes to follow". With all the changes happening in electronic scoring, a big website change coming and all the other stuff that was in the membership report I expect they will not make changes to the current website or EZWS but will in the new systems. I would also bet that those classifiers are being flagged on the backend processing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I think the BOD meeting minutes indicated that they will be replacing the pulled classifiers with new ones that will be re-tooled for 8 round revolvers. Just give them a little time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlgentlegiant Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 I think the BOD meeting minutes indicated that they will be replacing the pulled classifiers with new ones that will be re-tooled for 8 round revolvers. Just give them a little time. That is all good if they do it in a timely manner. If you look at the past release schedule for classifiers there is a 4-6 year gap between releases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I'm pretty sure all future classifiers will be 6 round neutral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Z Sr Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I would like to put this out there and will follow it up with emails to Phil and others. I would like to respectfully request that the recently pulled classifiers be reinstated for clubs and matches with no revolver shooters. I run a club that shoots at an indoor range year round. We have a bay of limited size, decent size but limited, and all shots must go into the trap/backstop downrange. There are a couple more clubs locally with the same issues. I do understand why the classifiers were pulled but in the case of my club and 2 others locally this results in the majority of the classifiers we can run in our bays being taken out of circulation. I think I am down to maybe 5 classifiers I can run right now and only 2 of them have not been run by our club or another local club recently (we have many of the same shooters so we try to work together and stagger classifiers). If classifiers were coming out regularly and I knew we would have a new batch, say in 6 months, this would be a non-issue. When we are looking at new classifiers only coming out every 4-6 years and out of those maybe having 4 we can use indoors then this creates a problem and a severe limitation on keeping the club running and shooters interested. Lets be honest here, while El Prez is a good drill and a classic nobody really likes shooting it as a classifier every 4 months and it has been shot to death. I do understand and agree with the decision from the national level to pull the classifiers but I also believe that the removal should only apply to the affected division. If these classifiers cannot be reinstated then I would request that NROI and the board take special measures to get some new or updated classifiers into the system ASAP and not another 4 years. Sincerely, Chris Briggs President GA22 - North Atlanta Action Shooters Excellent point, thank you for the post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrawandDuck Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Is 82 classifier stages not enough for the moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadarTech Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 DrawandDuck-- If you look at all the current classifiers, indoor clubs are severely limited. so while there are 82 total, there are less than 10 that have all targets straight downrange without steel and without targets that are low to the ground that may not meet an indoor range set of rules.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrawandDuck Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Makes sense, we do not have any clubs that shoot indoor here in Alabama so not used to that limitation....Carry on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Is 82 classifier stages not enough for the moment? Even if you are outdoors, many clubs have limitations on where targets can be placed. A number of the classifiers also require specialized props and equipment that clubs don't have or would have to be built special for that one classifier. I'm willing to bet that there are classifiers that haven't been shot by anyone at any level for quite some time. If they are not in regular use then there's probably a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I think the BOD meeting minutes indicated that they will be replacing the pulled classifiers with new ones that will be re-tooled for 8 round revolvers. Just give them a little time.?? Which meeting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Is 82 classifier stages not enough for the moment? Is 82 classifier stages not enough for the moment? I don't know. HQ has never officially released the HHF's for any of the classifier stages, per division. Nor have they released the amount of times or the frequency each stage has been shot. Just two types of data that would lend credence to the validity and efficacy of the classifier system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I think the BOD meeting minutes indicated that they will be replacing the pulled classifiers with new ones that will be re-tooled for 8 round revolvers. Just give them a little time.?? Which meeting? It could either be the most recent one, or the minutes from October 1, 1992. I don't remember which. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlgentlegiant Posted February 18, 2014 Author Share Posted February 18, 2014 RadarTech and Graham are dead on with their posts. I have another challenge at my range and that is all my prop storage is in an attic area above the range firing line that we can only access via a ladder. This places a further limit on the props I can have. For instance I have enough room to run "Quickie Mart" but I have no way I could store the prop for it. We also run into issues of having to have frag boxes for our steel and due to size and weight limitations it means I cannot easily use full size poppers. I have to make due with the resources I have while also trying to keep the club in the black and hopefully add a new prop or two. When I have our monthly classifier night match with fewer people than our weekly fun/practice shoots it tells me that many are just tired of the classifiers we can run. When the 13 series came out we got excited because there were 5 new stages we could run with our props and in our bay, a 25% increase to our available classifier count (roughly). I had more people showing up on classifier night because we had something new. I even ran a special 2 classifier match and had a really good turnout. I hope the BOD will take these factors into account and keep them in mind going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I think the BOD meeting minutes indicated that they will be replacing the pulled classifiers with new ones that will be re-tooled for 8 round revolvers. Just give them a little time.?? Which meeting? It could either be the most recent one, or the minutes from October 1, 1992. I don't remember which. 1992? That's gotta be a typo, revolver wasn't even a division then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I think the BOD meeting minutes indicated that they will be replacing the pulled classifiers with new ones that will be re-tooled for 8 round revolvers. Just give them a little time.?? Which meeting? It could either be the most recent one, or the minutes from October 1, 1992. I don't remember which. 1992? That's gotta be a typo, revolver wasn't even a division then. I thought it was a joke (or a slam on USPSA's ability to treat the classifier system with responsibility and transparency). Maybe it was just a (three digit?) typo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Sills Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Seemed like snark to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlgentlegiant Posted February 18, 2014 Author Share Posted February 18, 2014 A discussion of the classifier system is a whole other topic and I would like to keep it that way if we can as far as this thread goes at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I have a couple questions...... Why is this not an issue in LTD and Open? Not every gun has the same capacity and there is a classifier or 2 out there where it could make a difference. The other question is why not just mandate that all revolvers shoot classifiers with 6 rounds when competing in the Rev division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlgentlegiant Posted February 18, 2014 Author Share Posted February 18, 2014 I have a couple questions...... Why is this not an issue in LTD and Open? Not every gun has the same capacity and there is a classifier or 2 out there where it could make a difference. The other question is why not just mandate that all revolvers shoot classifiers with 6 rounds when competing in the Rev division? Great questions and based on a couple emails I have seen from people this might be something being discussed. As I understand it the whole issue was that the 8 shot revo gave a significant advantage on some stages. Take CM 03-08 "Madness" where you have 7 targets and the course of fire is one shot per target, mandatory reload and 1 shot per target (Going from spotty memory here). For 6 shot revo this would mean 2 reloads vs. 1 reload for 8 shot. For any other division this is 1 reload so not a factor. I do agree that the best course would be to specify that all current classifiers for revo go with 6 shot mandatory and any new classifiers be adjusted accordingly. This is just me with my take on things. In general with the way I see the decision having been made is that indoor ranges and clubs were not taken into account by the BOD. I would love to see a breakdown of indoor vs. outdoor ranges in the club counts. Keeping in mind that most classifiers come from national stages (all outdoors) I think that not much thought is given to how a given stage might be adapted to or fit into an indoor setting. My gut feeling is that there are a lot of clubs that shoot indoors and just hoping more thought is put into that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I am less concerned about suitable classifiers for indoors (sure that is something to think about) than I am about killing decent classifiers or even worse all classifiers being multiples of 6. I think the doing the later we would see a lot of 6 round or 6 reload 6 classifiers and that could end up skewing other division's classes since it seems the simpler classifiers are where people score better. Most of this is just me thinking out loud though...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosshoss Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I have a couple questions...... Why is this not an issue in LTD and Open? Not every gun has the same capacity and there is a classifier or 2 out there where it could make a difference. The other question is why not just mandate that all revolvers shoot classifiers with 6 rounds when competing in the Rev division? Great questions and based on a couple emails I have seen from people this might be something being discussed. As I understand it the whole issue was that the 8 shot revo gave a significant advantage on some stages. Take CM 03-08 "Madness" where you have 7 targets and the course of fire is one shot per target, mandatory reload and 1 shot per target (Going from spotty memory here). For 6 shot revo this would mean 2 reloads vs. 1 reload for 8 shot. For any other division this is 1 reload so not a factor. I do agree that the best course would be to specify that all current classifiers for revo go with 6 shot mandatory and any new classifiers be adjusted accordingly. This is just me with my take on things. In general with the way I see the decision having been made is that indoor ranges and clubs were not taken into account by the BOD. I would love to see a breakdown of indoor vs. outdoor ranges in the club counts. Keeping in mind that most classifiers come from national stages (all outdoors) I think that not much thought is given to how a given stage might be adapted to or fit into an indoor setting. My gut feeling is that there are a lot of clubs that shoot indoors and just hoping more thought is put into that. Actually on several of the dropped classifiers including CM 03-08 a 6 shot revolver will have to make 3 reloads to 1 for the 8 shot guns. The way the WSB on CM-03-08 is worded you have to reload after 7 shots. So it would be 6-1-6-1 for a 6 shot gun. I agree that they could also have changed the WSB to make ALL revolvers reload after 6 rounds and that would have solved the problem. The problem is I have already heard complaints from some 8 shot guys that it isn't fair to require them to do a reload after 6 shots and get hit with minor scoring also. Please don't blame the revolver shooters for this, some didn't want it and no one knew that it would be implemented the way it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now