Nimitz Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Since I don't have a gun at the moment and can't train I thought I'd stir things up a bit and start a thread about our classification system since no one ever seems to have any strong feelings about it .... So, why don't we simply change the classification system to be match results based instead of classifier stage score based? You could set up some kind of point system and reward points for where you finish in level 2 and level 3 matches. Each classification level would require attaining a certain number of points. You could also award GM status to anyone who finishes in the top 3 at Nationals or wins an Area match or some other criteria. This would do away with all the criticism about the classification system not being representative of match performance since let's face it, match performance is what counts ... No more Grangbaggers and no more sandbaggers either .... The perfect system ...!!! So let's do it ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Z Sr Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Sounds good in theory, but what if you shoot an AREA match as say an "A" class, and there is only 1 "M" and 1 "GM" in your Division (it could happen) and they both tank a stage or 2 for whatever reason. You now make "GM" due to a bad match for a few other shooters that really are "better" than you. We all know ANY classification system is not perfect, but everyone trying to come up with a better one can't hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfish Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) If that was the system then you could just shoot l10 at a few of the area matches that are in parts of the country that don't have mag restriction and most likely make GM. Area 5 last year only had 1 "B" class shooter and 1 "D" class shooter in l10. A "C" class shooter could easily win L10 and now he is a GM. You cant be classified more then 1 class down from you highest classification so now that "C" class shooter is a Master in all other divisions other then L10. Such system would also make it so that the people that don't travel a lot and shoot big matches could never really classify. There are many parts of this country that in in order to get more then maybe 1 major in you will have to travel maybe 200-300 miles just to shoot a second major match in that year Edited January 24, 2014 by bigfish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfish Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Also with a system like that how do you classify in more then 1 division without shooting many major matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbermurph Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Even though that wouldn't be practical for classification, I think it would be cool to see a point series. Maybe have a data base per state, scored for every local match. Do some sort of class based championship state wide. Or maybe field courses submitted and approved, just like classifiers that would set up a national percentage annually. Just like classifiers, have one every local match. Points turned in and highest (x)number of competitors in each div/class get a spot in the Field Course Invitational. Just thinking through the keyboard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 What about the millions and millions of guys who only shoot local matches?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclebud Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I agree with Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I'd propose a hybrid system: Keep current system for everybody, but change our classification if we shoot a Major - If I'm a B, and shoot a Major, and beat half the A's, might be time for me to move up in the ranks even though my Classifier was a solid C+. Or, if I shoot 75% at the Nationals, can I really remain a B? And, how about, while we're at it, you cannot make GM without shooting at least three Majors, and scoring in the top 5% at each? WOW. I like it already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juan Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 What about the millions and millions of guys who only shoot local matca a lot of people race motocross and are not nationaly ranked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfish Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 So you are saying that we should have to do away with everyone having the ability to see where they rank and only rank top tier competitors? If you are mostly only shooting local matches against the same people then how do you tell if you improving as time goes on after you get to the point were you are always winning the local matches? As flawed as the current system may or may not be, when you look at the major match results for the most part people finish about where they should. There are always going to be a couple people finishing way higher or lower then they should no matter what knid of system you come up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flack jacket Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Only Issue I see in bagging is A class and below.. M and GM are usually correctly ranked...based from the Nationals and Areas I've been to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Nimitz, did you miss this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=188249#entry2085902 It appears that there is at least one AD working on "codifying" how HHF's are set and making things more transparent. I'm willing to wait and see what progress he makes before starting with something brand new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) there are some interesting points in the above but I see nothing wrong with a classification system where you have to do something other than participate in local events if you want to be classified ... many other sport's classification systems require you to attend state, regional & national level events if you want a classification. To be blunt, I'm not sure your classification means a whole lot if you've never tested yourself beyond your home range ... I have concerns that I can attain the rank of Grand Master and never leave my club ... really? What kind of GM am I? As to the participation issue you may see more people attend level II matches when that's the only place the classification system resides .... also, if you have a division where only 1-2 people show up at a level II type of event then I might start to question the purpose of that division ... Also, there is nothing saying we need to keep all the classification levels we have now, maybe it's time to just have GM, M, A & B ... Regarding the comment about how do you know if you are getting better if you only shoot local matches .... that's the whole reason for higher level competition -- to find out I see lots of sandbagging at the Master level .... I know several shooters in my area who could make GM but prefer to stay at Master & avoid classifier matches because of that. For whatever reason they prefer to compete for the 1st Master title vice shooting it out with the GMs ... I guess they would rather be able to tell people they got the 1st master trophy than only be able to claim " I finished 3rd overall" .... Edited January 24, 2014 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 there is one AD working on "codifying" how HHF's are set and making things more transparent. I'm willing to wait and see what progress he makes before starting with something brand new. Glad to hear someone is looking into this - maybe some of the ideas generated above will be useful to that AD as he works on the situation. Lot of good ideas above for him to consider .... There may not be a Perfect Solution, but there are current problems that can and should be addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Z Sr Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Up for comment and consideration,,,, I've been thinking about what everyone has stated, and how does this sound to everyone??? We have 8 Areas in USPSA. Every year, each Area is to submit 1 stage to HQ. Those stages are posted, and every club can access them. Every club around the Country can host a "Postal Classifier" match once or twice per year, with those 8 stages. ALL scores go into USPSA and we get a growing list of data. Each Section can host all 8 stages for a yearly match. Each Area can do the same. We set up a Nationals with the same stages. Make the 8 stages a good blend of short, medium and long course. Everyone shoots regular match type stages, not just classifiers, and at the end, we all shoot the same against EVERYONE in USPSA, use your match score as a classifier. I know this might be alot of admin, but with all the computers today, should not be that hard. Every year may be tough, maybe every 2 or 3 years this system can be run. Let's face it, many of us may be classed above/below our actual skill level. I can go make "GM" in revo (currently a "M")(( really only on paper)) but will always only come in around a strong "A" finish against the greats like Jerry, Cliff, Matt, Josh etc. Keep the current system as "classed" but also maybe have an "Earned" system,,, paper "A" class and EARNED "B" class or whatever. Just a thought, any feedback?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) this still does not address the issue that you can get a 'national' classification and never leave your home range parking lot ... since our sport is based on freestyle shooting, your classification should be based on how well you do against the rest of the country - at a match, not an individual classifier stage. Your last statement is heading in the right direction ..... you could have a two tiered system where you have the National Classification System, which requires you to attend level 2 & 3 matches and shoot and be compared against the best in the country and then a local classification system similar to what we have now used only at the local level ... However, the National Classification would stll be match -based since our sport is about doing well in a match, not an individual stage ... Edited January 24, 2014 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 this still does not address the issue that you can get a 'national' classification and never leave your home range parking lot ... since our sport is based on freestyle shooting, your classification should be based on how well you do against the rest of the country - at a match, not an individual classifier stage. Your last statement is heading in the right direction ..... you could have a two tiered system where you have the National Classification System, which requires you to attend level 2 & 3 matches and shoot and be compared against the best in the country and then a local classification system similar to what we have now used only at the local level ... However, the National Classification would stll be match -based since our sport is about doing well in a match, not an individual stage ... I guess I don't see that as an issue. I think the classification system works pretty darned well. It wouldn't bother me to see an *additional* national ranking system based on major matches, (top 100 or 200 or 500 or whatever in each division), but it wouldn't bother me to not see it either. I think instead of brainstorming about ways to make life more complicated, I'm going to go do some dry-fire drills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 But tht's my point ... I can't dry fire either now and I'm tired of making bullets ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBandit Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I'm a newbie to this so don't take this as me being a smarta**, but the classification system seem pretty practical to me. Sure it may have it's flaws, but it is a way to gauge where you stand against other shooters on the classfier stages USPSA has offered. And, if I understand how the HHF is determined, how you stand with the top tier shooters that shot the Nationals on those particular stages. (I don't have the answer to how the HHF is determined, but I thought it was based on how those COFs were shot at Nationals.) Then you can take your D, C, B, A, M or GM card and sign up for a Level II or III match and see how you stand against the other competitors there. Based on funds and logistics I may never make it to an Area or Nationals, but I can still shoot locally and see how I stack up against the best in the classfier stages. I do agree that classfiers can be gamed and people could practice them constantly until they are very profecient at them and still not place in the top 50% of their division at a match, but how many people can practice that many classfiers that often? I don't know. Just a new guy trying to figure this out. Just adding my .02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) I would stop paying dues if I was mandated to travel to a major match to be classified. Classification is nice to have but I measure my performance by the overalls at the end of the match. I only shoot one major a year and that is because it is in my home town and I do not have to travel. Might go back to the Nat's if they ever get back to Vegas. My home club puts on national quality matches every week and the level of talent is comparable to any level III event so I feel comfy in my classification relative to my average placement at the local matches . I like the idea of a postal match though. Edited January 24, 2014 by StraightUp_OG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 But tht's my point ... I can't dry fire either now and I'm tired of making bullets ... sounds like you need more guns, so if one is getting worked on you still have something to practice with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Might go back to the Nat's if they ever get back to Vegas. Nats are like 90 minutes away from vegas, at a much nicer range!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 You're very lucky then since I would suspect that the vast majority of local matches don't come close to rivaling the Nationals, to say nothing of the talent pool. My bottom line is that if you want a national level classification it should be earned by shooting against national competitors for an entire match, not an individual stage ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 But tht's my point ... I can't dry fire either now and I'm tired of making bullets ... sounds like you need more guns, so if one is getting worked on you still have something to practice with. Both of my competition pistols are out at the same time unfortunately ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 if you want a national level classification it should be earned by shooting against national competitors for an entire match Absolutely!! Especially if it's higher than a C - maybe you can earn a C or D card locally, but not a B card and certainly NOT an A card. And, the other way around - if you have a B card, and you shoot 75% at a Major match, you should become an A, automatically - didn't it always work that way in the past? When did it change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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