Multi string stage with target engagement order issue

[CHA-LEE]

I experienced an RO/Scoring issue this past weekend at a local club match that I don’t fully understand how the rules should have been enforced from a scoring and penalty perspective.

The stage was Classifier 13-04 named The Roscoe Rattle. This is a multi string classifier with a stage procedure of….

String 1: On signal, turn and engage T2 with 6 rounds

only, from within area A.

String 2: On signal, turn and engage T1 with 6 rounds

only. Perform a mandatory reload and engage T3

with six rounds only. All shots fired from within

area A.

Here is the scenario. On the start signal the shooter turns and engages T1 with 6 rounds then stops and immediately realizes that he should have engaged T2 instead of T1. No further shots are taken and the shooter makes ready for the second string. I am in the “Clip Board” RO position and I ask the “Timer” RO to stop for a second while I try to wrap my head around how this will be scored. There are so many variable running around in my head that I can’t make sense of how to actually score it. Then the shooter asks how they should shoot the second string without incurring additional penalties. For the second string does he shoot “at” T1 but intentionally miss so he does not rack up Extra Hit penalties? Does he engage T1 and T3 instead? Does he get a failure to shoot at penalty for T2 if he does not shoot at it during the second string? If the shooter chooses to not shoot the second string, how is that to be scored?

With all of these unknown variables for the RO’s and the Shooter not knowing how to properly shoot the second string, I recommended that the shooter Unload and Show Clear. Once clear we reset the stage and a reshoot given. I am pretty sure this was probably the wrong call at the time, but it seemed like the least brain damage or mega time wasting thing to do at the time. I honestly felt bad for the guy myself, our squad only had 8 shooters on it and there were only a couple of RO’s being tasked with doing the majority of the ROing. The shooter in question was actually ROing other shooters all the way up to right before his turn to shoot so I am sure he wasn’t mentally ready to shoot the stage.

What should have been the right way to tackle this situation given all of the variables?

[Nik Habicht]

Here's my call: 6 Mikes, and a Failure to engage at the end of "String 1." Start the shooter for String 2, after advising him what the string consists of and perhaps reminding him that in a Virginia Count stage there is the possibility of extra hit penalties....

[NMBOpen]

In this situation, I agree with Nik. For the second string, one shot at T1 (miss) to engage and avoid extra hit penalty, then reload and 6 on T3, ignoring T2 - you already earned 70 penalty points and failed to score a possible 30 points . No matter what you do, String 1 zeroed this 90 point stage.

[CHA-LEE]

Thanks for the replies and your recommendations make sense.

What would be the call if the shooter engaged T2 & T3 on the second string? There would be a valid number of hits on each target. Would it be appropriate to assess a per shot fired procedural penalty for each shot on T1 & T2 because they were engaged out of order?

[Nik Habicht]

Thanks for the replies and your recommendations make sense.

What would be the call if the shooter engaged T2 & T3 on the second string? There would be a valid number of hits on each target. Would it be appropriate to assess a per shot fired procedural penalty for each shot on T1 & T2 because they were engaged out of order?

I need to revise my earlier call -- String one really needs to be scored as six misses and one FTE for T2, as well as 6 extra hits on T1........

But yes, assuming that you don't score between strings, but nothing else changes -- 12 procedurals for rounds fired incorrectly at T1 & T2 would also do it.....

Any way you slice it, the shooter zeroed the stage on the first try. I'd offer him a reshoot for classification purposes only (no need to rub salt in the wound, especially if he needed the classifier score for classification, or because he was close to moving up, and wanted another crack at it....) and call it a day.....

[sperman]

Thanks for the replies and your recommendations make sense.

What would be the call if the shooter engaged T2 & T3 on the second string? There would be a valid number of hits on each target. Would it be appropriate to assess a per shot fired procedural penalty for each shot on T1 & T2 because they were engaged out of order?

He's screwed either way. If he shoots T2 & T3 on the 2nd string, he earns 6 more mikes and another FTE. If he engages T1 & T3, as per the WSB, then he gets 6 extra hit penalties.

As mentioned above, after string 1 he's already zeroed the stage, so anything he does on string 2 isn't going to make any difference.

[motosapiens]

Maybe it's my background in IDPA for a few months, but I would score it 6 mikes and an FTE, tape up T1 and run the 2nd string. Either way the shooter is hosed, but it seems unsporting to score it in a way that that would get extra hits. If the RM wanted to score it differently, I'd be fine with that too.

In real life (meow), at a local match, I would probably just re-shoot. We're just there for fun anyway. At a bigger match, I would call troy and let him figure it out.

[CHA-LEE]

Thanks for the replies and your recommendations make sense.

What would be the call if the shooter engaged T2 & T3 on the second string? There would be a valid number of hits on each target. Would it be appropriate to assess a per shot fired procedural penalty for each shot on T1 & T2 because they were engaged out of order?

I need to revise my earlier call -- String one really needs to be scored as six misses and one FTE for T2, as well as 6 extra hits on T1........

But yes, assuming that you don't score between strings, but nothing else changes -- 12 procedurals for rounds fired incorrectly at T1 & T2 would also do it.....

Any way you slice it, the shooter zeroed the stage on the first try. I'd offer him a reshoot for classification purposes only (no need to rub salt in the wound, especially if he needed the classifier score for classification, or because he was close to moving up, and wanted another crack at it....) and call it a day.....

In this situation we can't assess a penalty of 6 extra hits on T1. You are suppose to score the targets based on the hits present. If there are only 6 holes in T1, then there are no extra hits.

But I agree with your stance, regardless of the scoring scenario with penalties applied, the stage is going to be zeroed anyway.

Edited January 14, 2014 by CHA-LEE

[motosapiens]

Another thought, in a more literal 'rulebook' mode.... since extra hits are scored at the target, and you don't go to the target between strings, what's to stop the shooter from simply shooting t2 and t3 on the second string? Unless your eyesight is good, how do you know when he shot at which targets?

[Sarge]

Another thought, in a more literal 'rulebook' mode.... since extra hits are scored at the target, and you don't go to the target between strings, what's to stop the shooter from simply shooting t2 and t3 on the second string? Unless your eyesight is good, how do you know when he shot at which targets?

Really? The targets are 6 feet apart and only 27 feet away. If an RO can't tell which target is being shot at on this classifier he needs to find a new line of work.

And, it would be cheating and subject the shooter to DQ.

[motosapiens]

Another thought, in a more literal 'rulebook' mode.... since extra hits are scored at the target, and you don't go to the target between strings, what's to stop the shooter from simply shooting t2 and t3 on the second string? Unless your eyesight is good, how do you know when he shot at which targets?

Really? The targets are 6 feet apart and only 27 feet away. If an RO can't tell which target is being shot at on this classifier he needs to find a new line of work.

And, it would be cheating and subject the shooter to DQ.

You're probably right, but can you cite the rule?

I thought the RO was supposed to be watching the gun, anyway, not the targets.

[ZackJones]

I thought the RO was supposed to be watching the gun, anyway, not the targets.

In this particular classifier it's very easy for the RO to tell which target the shooter is engaging. The gun is either pointed to the left, to the center or two the right. There's no mistaking which target is being shot. Look that classifier setup diagram and you'll see.

[frag316]

I think you handled it correctly, except for the reshoot part of it--once he engaged the wrong target first, he basically zeroed the stage. Stopping him after the first string saved him some ammo.

I think the best way to have handled this would have been for the timer RO to assess the six procedurals and the FTE immediately after giving the competitor the "Reload, safety on, holster" between the two strings. That gives the shooter the option of not shooting the rest of the stage and taking the zero.

For the folks who say there's no provision for that, the rulebook-reconciled answer would be to give the competitor the beep, and for the competitor to simply not draw and fire, waiting for the time limit. He gets the stage as scored, after being given the ULSC.

And to answer Motosapiens' question--most ROs should be able to see the target with the holes in it and recognize whether it's the right one or wrong one.

[lcs]

And your would be?

He fires the 6 rounds at T1, performs the mandatory reload and engaged T3 with 6 rounds on String 1

[CHA-LEE]

And your would be?

He fires the 6 rounds at T1, performs the mandatory reload and engaged T3 with 6 rounds on String 1

I thought of that variable as well, but didn't want to confuse the discussion any more than it already is.

[CHA-LEE]

No matter how we look at this issue. I screwed up by stopping the shooter after the first string and issuing an invalid reshoot of the stage. The good thing is that with this discussion I will be better prepared to deal with the situation the next time it happens. Thanks for all of the feedback on this.

[Poppa Bear]

You were dealing with one of the hazards that burn out RO's. When you run shooters up to or almost up to your turn you have a hard time getting your head into the game. I have tanked many stages because I was not ready to shoot. Sometimes you have to make a choice. Not RO and be fully into the game, or RO and not even shoot.

[Nik Habicht]

Thanks for the replies and your recommendations make sense.

What would be the call if the shooter engaged T2 & T3 on the second string? There would be a valid number of hits on each target. Would it be appropriate to assess a per shot fired procedural penalty for each shot on T1 & T2 because they were engaged out of order?

I need to revise my earlier call -- String one really needs to be scored as six misses and one FTE for T2, as well as 6 extra hits on T1........

But yes, assuming that you don't score between strings, but nothing else changes -- 12 procedurals for rounds fired incorrectly at T1 & T2 would also do it.....

Any way you slice it, the shooter zeroed the stage on the first try. I'd offer him a reshoot for classification purposes only (no need to rub salt in the wound, especially if he needed the classifier score for classification, or because he was close to moving up, and wanted another crack at it....) and call it a day.....

In this situation we can't assess a penalty of 6 extra hits on T1. You are suppose to score the targets based on the hits present. If there are only 6 holes in T1, then there are no extra hits.

But I agree with your stance, regardless of the scoring scenario with penalties applied, the stage is going to be zeroed anyway.

Sure you can -- because you're scoring after the first string, when there should be no holes in T1......

There's nothing forbidding you from scoring after each string if you need to......

Any way it goes, the shooter zeroed the stage. There's really no point in shooting in the second string.....

[austex]

There's nothing forbidding you from scoring after each string if you need to......

What about 6.1.1? "Scores and penalties are recorded following completion of the course of fire, unless the course of fire specifies that they shall be recorded and the targets taped between strings."

[Nik Habicht]

There's nothing forbidding you from scoring after each string if you need to......

What about 6.1.1? "Scores and penalties are recorded following completion of the course of fire, unless the course of fire specifies that they shall be recorded and the targets taped between strings."

That's interesting -- especially when you consider 5.7.6

5.7.6 Where the handgun has failed after the Start signal, the competitor must not be permitted to reshoot the course of fire or string. This includes the instance where a handgun is declared unserviceable or unsafe during a course of fire or string. However, any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise may still be attempted by the affected competitor after the handgun has been repaired, and prior to when match results are declared final by the Match Director.

So in that instance I can't score between strings?

You're right though -- I missed the actual wording of 6.1.1 -- was working off memory, and thought we'd just eliminated a requirement......

[austex]

5.7.6 Where the handgun has failed after the Start signal, the competitor must not be permitted to reshoot the course of fire or string. This includes the instance where a handgun is declared unserviceable or unsafe during a course of fire or string. However, any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise may still be attempted by the affected competitor after the handgun has been repaired, and prior to when match results are declared final by the Match Director.

So in that instance I can't score between strings?

Not unless the course of fire specifies that you can. Otherwise, the shooter attempts the remaining strings, and then the whole COF is scored.

[GuildSF4]

5.7.6 Where the handgun has failed after the Start signal, the competitor must not be permitted to reshoot the course of fire or string. This includes the instance where a handgun is declared unserviceable or unsafe during a course of fire or string. However, any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise may still be attempted by the affected competitor after the handgun has been repaired, and prior to when match results are declared final by the Match Director.

So in that instance I can't score between strings?

Not unless the course of fire specifies that you can. Otherwise, the shooter attempts the remaining strings, and then the whole COF is scored.

If the hand gun broke and has to be repaired off of the course of fire then you would have to score between strings.

[Nik Habicht]

5.7.6 Where the handgun has failed after the Start signal, the competitor must not be permitted to reshoot the course of fire or string. This includes the instance where a handgun is declared unserviceable or unsafe during a course of fire or string. However, any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise may still be attempted by the affected competitor after the handgun has been repaired, and prior to when match results are declared final by the Match Director.

So in that instance I can't score between strings?

Not unless the course of fire specifies that you can. Otherwise, the shooter attempts the remaining strings, and then the whole COF is scored.

OK. The shooter needs two hours to repair his gun -- or a twenty minute walk to the parking lot to get a spare.......

So the stage just sits there, waiting for his return, right? Then why do we need the language about "after the handgun has been repaired, and prior to when match results are declared final by the Match Director." That suggests -- for a multiday match where a gun fails for a competitor on day 1, that he could return to complete the stage on day 4 -- and I don't think it'll be sitting idle in the meantime......

[Nik Habicht]

5.7.6 Where the handgun has failed after the Start signal, the competitor must not be permitted to reshoot the course of fire or string. This includes the instance where a handgun is declared unserviceable or unsafe during a course of fire or string. However, any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise may still be attempted by the affected competitor after the handgun has been repaired, and prior to when match results are declared final by the Match Director.

So in that instance I can't score between strings?

Not unless the course of fire specifies that you can. Otherwise, the shooter attempts the remaining strings, and then the whole COF is scored.

If the hand gun broke and has to be repaired off of the course of fire then you would have to score between strings.

So that thing in 6.1.1 that doesn't include "Must" isn't an actual requirement? 'cause I don't think you can have it both ways.....

[22 shooter]

String 2, shoot T1 and T3. No misses,no extra shots, no extra hits. 2 procedurals for shooting each string out of order?