hopalong Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 OK USPSA keeps saying that the Nationals are killing them, first of all is USPSA not a NON Profit organization? Now to the reason for the thread. IF There were 5 different Nationals, would there be more participation in each? MORE than Likely, I know several folks who really did not like the option last year, One big match bring what you want. So how about this.... USPSA offer Bids to USPSA sanctioned Clubs for a Nationals of some type starting with OPEN, LIMITED, L-10, PRODUCTION, and REVOLVER The Club that wins the bid then is allotted 50 dollars per shooter (after the match) out of USPSA treasurey for hosting the Nationals(Production costs) and then leave the Money thing up to the HOST club and let them pay the Normal Match Fees owed USPSA thus keeping the "cost" down. This would eleminate the problem MV and USPSA say they keep having with Nationals costs and esp. travel costs for all the USPSA staff from Washington State to wherevere the Nationals is, if they want go they can, just out of their pocket like the rest of the shooters. This is a "rough drawing" but with planning and some good forward looking People I think it could work out for the better. What do ya'll think, AND KEEP it within the forum guidelines please. SAM KEEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 sounds like a potential good plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 I think this is a great idea. Just three years ago it was split into Open, Limited, and Factory Gun. There are shooters who would shoot all 5 matches, and probably most of the super squad would at least shoot 3-4. This should give a boost to revovler, production, and L10 too. I don't think there would be a great loss if 600 people didn't show up. I know this is a business just like any other, and that travel costs for the staff are an issue. I think those travel costs should be contained to just the necessary staff, and it may or may not be there already. I do not know what the budget process is, so I am careful not to be critical, but it seems that no matter what USPSA does, it never makes a majority of people happy. What I am trying to say is that when there are 2 Nationals, people complain, when there is 1, people complain. When there is talk of back-to-back nationals, some love it because of travel cost averaging, and others hate it because of event cost and time away from work and family. There will never be a solution that satisfies 100% of the organization, but it is logical to assume that more people will like the ability to shoot their nationals with everyone in their division, and maybe get to shoot other divisions this way. An example is my dilema this year. Limited, Production, and Revolver are first, my three favorites, then Open and L10. I will not shoot Open this year. I don't care for L10 the way it is now. So, I still have one choice. Last year I had one choice as well. The flip side of the coin is that your diehard Limited and Open guys will have the best week of their life. The ten round cult will get to shoot twice as well. Revolver, forgive me Sam, is unaffected, unless a L10 or Open guy will shoot it too. It will be interesting to see how Revolver does under this scenario. Another option(consolation prize) might be to have Race Gun Nats and Factory Gun Nats. Race Gun would be Open, Limited, and Open Revolver. Factory gun would be Limited 10, Production, and Revlover. This would allow you primary wheelgunners two venues too. Now, the supersquad couldn't shoot both O&L in this one, but they could hold multiple titles for their resumes in a single year. BTW, I am not anti-supersquad, those guys are really nice for the most part, and all of them promote our sport very positively. I just want to see a process in place where every USPSA member gets more involvement in the major decisions. Talking to your AD is a great start, but showing the board real numbers expressing the wants/needs of the majority would be awesome. I feel like a whiner, so I gotta say that I have been fine with someone telling me where to be and when, so that I decide to show or not. I really hate the political side of shooting, I just want to shoot. When it boils down to it, the fact that the sport is alive and well enough to get us this far in the conversation alone is a beautiful thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 The first major flaw I see is finding 5 different clubs through out the year that can handle the logistics of hosting a Nationals AND staying away from major scheduling conflicts with Area matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 Sam, Not a bad idea, but the consistency of the match would definitely suffer. USPSA brings in the "best of the best" for a nationals. Local talent won't get you through a nats. I felt like a big fish from a small pond when I was working them last year. It was quite a humbling experience. The knowledge these people (USPSA RO's and staff) posess, and the way they make it look so effortless is amazing. They know the rulebook INTIMATELY, and offer a competition structure like no other. A nationals shooter is going to demand that. I have run tournaments before, and trust me, you ain't in Kansas anymore!!! Sectionals and areas are one thing, nationals are another. Some may THINK they can do it, but I don't believe they see what goes into it behind-the-scenes. All this being said, you cannot eliminate that 1/3 of the budget, try as you might, or that poor match director is going to look like a first-class a$$. Now, onto stage props, building and design, another 1/3 of the equation. There is a nationals advance team (a crack unit IMHO) that designs, builds and tweaks the stages. Without them, you are dead meat. Competitors at the nationals level DEMAND well-concieved, designed and built stages, and these props and the people who build the stages don't come cheap!!! No single area has the talent to pull it off IMHO, so they must be imported. Not much in the way of compromise in this section. Now, for the final 1/3 of the equation. This is comprised of prize table, range rental, port-o-johns, and MANY other misc. items too numerous to list. I (without going into extreme detail) don't believe that there is enough wiggle room here to scale down, and have it be anything meaninful. Now, add to all this that you want to mobilize (a HUGE cost) up to five times. You'd be broke before you started. And for what??? So a few people could shoot twice...or maybe five?!?! Not worth it...Let 'em whine. The compromise being struck this year is the best idea IMHO. One mobilization, one week long for two nats, and people can shoot it twice if they are fortunate enough to have their two divisions at the seperate venues. Maybe we could rotate what matches are shot at each end of the week from year to year, but that is (I'm afraid) the best we can do without breaking the bank. Just my opinion FWIW. Jeff PS I second Jakes view...too many matches competing for precious dates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 How about one mobilization, one week, same stages, five single day nationals with 8 or so stages, entry costs slightly higher but not double. If it happens, I will shoot all 5, that is a promise. Or, you could let the shooter determine what gun he shoots in a given day, it wouldn't matter, then people interested in only one or two could shorten their trip if necessary. It would probably be less prep than a 3gun match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 I sure wouldn't pay $250 to shoot 8 stages. Nationals is not Nationals if its the size of a local match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 How about one mobilization, one week, same stages, five single day nationals with 8 or so stages, entry costs slightly higher but not double. If it happens, I will shoot all 5, that is a promise. Or, you could let the shooter determine what gun he shoots in a given day, it wouldn't matter, then people interested in only one or two could shorten their trip if necessary. It would probably be less prep than a 3gun match. One day Nationals? That would be an area match or a sectional....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spd522 Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 I may have interpreted his suggestion different but took it as paying the $250 or more and getting to shoot all the classes you wanted for that. One class per day. I agree $250+ is too much to shoot one 8 stage match. But if you get to shoot 2,3,4,or even all 5 classes for that, it would be one fun week IMHO. I would definately do 3 and probably 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 spd522, your interpretation is correct. I was thinking maybe a $300 fee, and choose which divisions you want to shoot or $250 for the first, and $25 each additional division. The staff wouldn't have any more work than 2004 shooting 5 days, or 2003 shooting back-to-back Nationals, or 2005 shooting 3 then 2. The actual participation in the lesser visited venues would increase, and the pros could still shoot them all. I would shoot all 5, unlike this year where I will probably shoot only Limited. The only drawbacks I see are scheduling/squadding will be a little more cumbersome, and the guys who only shoot one division will complain about less stages. The advantages are: less mobilization and cost, more revenue and profit, a true opportunity to measure growth of the divisions as they are now, one travel for the all week shooters, and less lodging for the 1-2 category guys. You can shoot anywhere from 8-40 stages! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 5 seperate Nationals would have the same problems as the two seperate pistol nationals did. 1. GM's "double dipping" for Nationals Titles. In my opinion...pick your division of choice and have at it. One guy should NOT be Limited and L10 division National champion ( just an example...pick any two or more divisions). 2. COST and Availability of workers. USPSA LOST money on the mulit-match format remember? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 spd522, your interpretation is correct. I was thinking maybe a $300 fee, and choose which divisions you want to shoot or $250 for the first, and $25 each additional division. The staff wouldn't have any more work than 2004 shooting 5 days, or 2003 shooting back-to-back Nationals, or 2005 shooting 3 then 2. The actual participation in the lesser visited venues would increase, and the pros could still shoot them all. I would shoot all 5, unlike this year where I will probably shoot only Limited. The only drawbacks I see are scheduling/squadding will be a little more cumbersome, and the guys who only shoot one division will complain about less stages. The advantages are: less mobilization and cost, more revenue and profit, a true opportunity to measure growth of the divisions as they are now, one travel for the all week shooters, and less lodging for the 1-2 category guys. You can shoot anywhere from 8-40 stages! One other disadvantage is the number of shooters per day. It is only physically possible to run about 120 shooters in a day. So, if you have one division per day, that means that only 120 shooters will be competing in each division. Slots to the nationals would be in very high demand. Arnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Good point Hoser. 600 shooters per 5 days, would mean you would have to run all divisions at the same time. Very complex scheduling and squadding would be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted December 22, 2004 Author Share Posted December 22, 2004 Hoser, How about earning them through the points series as some are talking about, and then having whats left go out to the sections as they are now. That would increase points series participation and the club that bud for and won that Nationals would know what kind of numbers to anticipate for.(and USPSA) Just and Idea.... HOP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Hoser, How about earning them through the points series as some are talking about, and then having whats left go out to the sections as they are now.That would increase points series participation and the club that bud for and won that Nationals would know what kind of numbers to anticipate for.(and USPSA) Just and Idea.... HOP That would be one idea, but then why would clubs pay mission count which enables them to get slots to Nationals? Without the mission count money, USPSA would go broke. Arnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Personally I don't mind the Back to Back format, BUT! I think that if the Nationals is going to be reduced in scale due to the tightening of the time frame, the cost to the shooters should likewise be reduced. 2004 Nationals, we had X unique shooters @ $250 per, now we will have in the same time frame two nationals which may well have MORE slots total filled at the same price! I get no real savings in time off from work or in travel, although I do save a couple days hotel and meals this way, i get no free time to sightsee or rest. We get up and shoot 4 stages on Sunday and 8 each of Mon & Tues? repeat Wed, THurs Fri? All so a few shooters can vie for multiple crowns. What was wrong with the way we did it this year? Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral404 Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Non-profit is a tax designation. It does not mean that revenue can not exceed expenses. As with any organization of this size there are financial responsibilities to ensure its stability. The issue of costs as related to nationals is interesting. First, any company allocates costs to their advantage, within the GAAP and tax code. I do not know what costs were allocated and how they were allocated. And for the most part do not really care just so long as people are being reasonable. This was my first Nationals. I truly did not like the half day of shooting and half day of free time. I would have preferred to shoot more each day. The match was fine, the RO staff were great in my experience. The end of the match needs some process reengineering. I hope to Nationals next year. I hope I will be able to get the time off so I can shoot two Divisions. More importantly, I am glad kids in school will be able to attend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 What do you all think are the costs that are making the nationals run at a loss? Maybe addressing them would be a simpler solution. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted December 22, 2004 Author Share Posted December 22, 2004 Arnie, How about the top 5 in each class of each division earn slots through the Points series... Then what is left will go through the sections(Mission Count) as they are now, if any are left then they can be issued by Lottery, thus in theory increasing Points series participation, and more slots used by Sections instead of just being First come first served. It is my opinion(opinions are like noses and butt holes everyone has one and some of them smell ) That slots for Nationals should be earned as the Nationals are the "Best of the Best" matches (or at least should be) 5 Divisions 6 classes each = 150 BUT not all will be offered as there will not be that much participation in L-10, P, and R AS they are looked at as STEP CHILDREN Put a limit on numbers of slots offered per Nationals so they will be used say 250 for Open 250 for Limited, 100 for the other 3 divisions, First come first served as far as slots go, if all Open are issued then you apply for Limited, if they are all gone then L-10 ect. and so forth and so on. If Limited and Open fillup, L-10 gets 75 Production gets 75 and Rev gets 50 then you would have a grand total of almost 700 people shooting the Nationals (How many last year?) If Done right and promoted USPSA could (should) get this kind of Participation and when has USPSA had 700 shooters for National matches? Just an Idea..... Hop/Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 i don't like it who can afford 5 weeks vacation (for all divisions) or the ammo to practice each. not to mention extra entry fees and all the hastle involved now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted December 23, 2004 Author Share Posted December 23, 2004 Steve, Nobody said you HAD to shoot all 5 !!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 Put a limit on numbers of slots offered per Nationals so they will be used say 250 for Open 250 for Limited, 100 for the other 3 divisions, First come first served as far as slots go, if all Open are issued then you apply for Limited, if they are all gone then L-10 ect. and so forth and so on.If Limited and Open fillup, L-10 gets 75 Production gets 75 and Rev gets 50 then you would have a grand total of almost 700 people shooting the Nationals (How many last year?) It would be nice if it was that easy! Unfortunately, if you have 700 shooters, competing over five days, that means 140 shooters per day. I don't believe there is enough time to run 140 shooters per day. Plus, that would not allow one division per day. Limited and Open would need two days each which would mean only one day for Lim10, Rev and Prod. Surely there would be more than 120 shooters who would want to shoot Lim10/Rev/Prod. I guess there is never an easy answer. Arnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral404 Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 I know up front, this is not a fair comparison! The boys at Tuesday Night Steel typically run 140 shooters from 3:30 to 8:30- 4 Stages with about a 100 round total count. So 140 shooters @ day is possible given some constraints. Gary has been doing this for 19 years or so. So that helps, he knows what and where delays are caused. The folks who estimate the time for the stages at A2 also do a pretty good job. Unfortunately, I have done a lot of Business Process Reegineering in my work. One simple suggestion is that when a competitor wishes to have a Match Director review a target. DO NOT STOP EVERYTHING ELSE until the MD arrives. Pull the target, put up a new one, and let the squad continue to shoot. There is a lot of wasted time. I know that ROs think they are speeding things up which there are in some activities but it is all for naught when they stop the squad from shooting. It is ironic that our sport promotes efficiency of movement and fails to apply the same principles to the running of a match. This is just my observation and not meant to start a flame war! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 just a little note on the side: scoring appeals go to the RM(s, could be more than 1), not the MD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted December 23, 2004 Author Share Posted December 23, 2004 Hoser, You have forgotten that I also suggested the Nationals be 5 SEPERATE and different matches Bid for by Areas (or sections) to be run BY that Area (or section) with USPSA HELPING where needed. Thus you could have 3 day matches for the OPEN and Limited shooters, and 2 day matches for the others (if need be two days). Let the winning bidder have the match for 2 years to help recoup costs for the 1st year (Most props and stuff will have to be Made the 1st year and reused, modified the next) USPSA will deal with sponsors/prize tables/trophies as it IS the USPSA Nationals, that will allow the winning bidder to concentrate on Match Logistics and other important stuff. Shorter Matches (day wise) = Less Costs per shooter( travel, lodging ect) and that would make it even more apealing to come shoot. Take Me for example, I would shoot the Revolver Nationals, 2 day Match = 1 day travel, 2 days shooting 1 day travel= 2 days off work,(I am electrician and we get NO vacation time, so time off is time LOST). This year for Nationals 1 day drive to Barry, 5 HALF days shooting (6 nights at hotel) 5 days OFF work (lost pay 1 week apx. 700 dollars) so that match actually cost me about 1500+/- to go shoot and I drove with another just think about adding an airplane round trip ticket. Also I have been told all my life, Simple is better and to always remember the K.I.S.S. Meathod (Keep It Simple S&%^%$). Just more of the same Idea.... Hopalong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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