Nationals

[Mistral404]

Oops, thanks for the correction Detlef.

[Jim Norman]

On the subject of multiple Nationals.

5 Nationals is a great idea, all we need are 300 revolver shooters! and 300 Production shooters and 300 L-10 shooters and 300 Open and 300 Limited shooters.

It ain't happenin!

Also remember for each National whether it is a 2 day afair or a week long afair, the upfront time and backside time is about the same. The stages need to be built, that at least two to three days then there is the RO match, another day minimum, after the match is the tear down and put away, at least another day. then the staff has travel expense and housing. With the one big all inclusive match like we just had, there were still open slots, but all the preparations and base costs were spread over 497 shooters. there were if I remember correctly 20 separate bays, so we had the oppurtunity for 40 squads of say 15 shooters each or 600 shooters.

The stats for the different divisions were:

Limited 161

Limited-10 43

Open 218

Production 58

Revolver 17

Total: 497

Not enough support in any but Limited and Open for a standalone match of National magnitude.

Travel costs for the All-in-One are two days out, two days back and 5 days shooting, 9 days total. If I shot L-10, Limited, Production and Open, even assuming half the matches were closer to home I wind up with 8 travel days and at least 8 probably(hopefully) 12 shooting days, meaning my expense increases to 20 days of away from home living and travel while my match fees go from $250 to $1000!

True I get to shoot in up to 5 separate Nationsl, but as the stats show, even combining L-10, Productin and Revolver we'd only have 118 shooters based on 2004. Based on 2003, we had 257 shooters at the Factory Gun Nats. 157 of which shot L-10. Revolver was 18 so I think that we know the extent of revolver shooting in USPSA. We cannot hold a National just for Revolver, it has to be combined same for Production. L-10 probably wouldn't draw sufficent either.

In fact, the Limited and Open Nationals only drew slightly over 250 each. I am sure that the number of unique shooters was far less then the 750 total competitors.

I was really hoping that the format this year would be the same as last year.

Jim Norman

[hopalong]

Jim,

I would have no problem with 1 big Nationals like this year, the problem I have is with shooting HALF DAYS When I go to a match more importantly a MAJOR Match I go to SHOOT not sit around half a day, even if I get to watch some good shooting, I still came to SHOOT.

I know the 5 seperate matches will Never Happen (in MY lifetime) but if nobody is trying to come up with anything better (or different) it will all be "JUST THE SAME"

and then watch participation go away.

IF the smaller divisions are to get more participation they will have to have some kind of INCENTIVE to draw more shooters than what they have now, what kind I do not have that answer.

It is obvious USPSA would rather them dry up and go away but there are enough out there shooting them that they will be a thorn in USPSA's side until they go ahead and embrace the 3 divisions and promote them, then they will grow in spite of it all.

I am not saying this because I am shooting Revolver and wish there were more shooting it, I say this because it is that obvious.

I started shooting Limited and have yet to shoot a Limited Nationals, But still like shooting Limited and still do occasionaly just to spite my buddies here that say they think they can beat me in a local match because I have not shot it much.

I don't know if I have ruffled any ones feathers and if I have I am sorry, for our sport is a great sport and I truly enjoy it and the fine folks that participate in it and around it.

Thanks for your time and effort in all you do.

Sam Keen / Hopalong

[Flexmoney]

It is obvious USPSA would rather them dry up and go away but there are enough out there shooting them that they will be a thorn in USPSA's side until they go ahead and embrace the 3 divisions and promote them, then they will grow in spite of it all.

Wow Sam. I don't get that at all.

It seems that USPSA created these division not too long ago.

I like to look at each match as being five matches all rolled into one. I sure am glad the revolver guys have somewhere to shoot (USPSA-type) matches.

Speaking of USPSA...it's not some faceless company. It is guys like you and me doing what we can to promote practical shooting the best we can. I'm pretty sure my Area Director (USPSA BOD member) isn't anti-revolver.

[hopalong]

Flex,

I am still relatively new to shooting (competitive shooting) and joined USPSA in April of "01" it seems that is the year that the 3 new divisions were started and at the time I shot Limited.

I am not trying to champion Revolvers only, it seems to me (my observations) that the "system" has not embraced the 3 new divisions and tried to make them go...

Is it that Open and Limited have been around so long and have such a strong following that the other 3 divisions will never catchup? Most likely, but we need to (USPSA) Support the new 3 divisions and try to get the numbers up some how.

Support from the top (HQ) will just help at the other levels, there just has to be

a way of getting the regular guys/gals and some of the guys/gals that are on the outside to participate in the "OTHER DIVISIONS"

I myself am working on having a "Southern Revolver Championship" This will be a sanctioned USPSA match and all guns will be welcome but the revolvers will be EMPHASIZED and I am going to have an "OPEN REVOLVER" division open to anyone who has an OPEN revolver, since there is no real division in USPSA, the idea is to see how much support and participation I can get for not just revolvers but to also see if I (we, USPSA) can get some of the guys who don't shoot USPSA but do shoot Revolvers to come shoot with us, and thus maybe get a few more in our ranks.(ICORE and IDPA come to mind first)

Something is amiss when USPSA can't get but 17 revolvers at their Nationals and IDPA gets 50, and ICORE gets More than that at their Nationals.

And when USPSA gets what was it around 60 Production guns and IDPA the same type gun (Stock service Pistol) is the Largest Division they have.(at each others Nationals respectively)

The shooters are out there, we just have to find out a way to get them.

I know USPSA, and IDPA are NOT the same and some that shoot one will NEVER shoot the other, as is with ICORE and REVOS. but there are those who Like me just like to shoot, I preferr USPSA over IDPA mainly because of the freestyle shooting but that is another thread, but I shoot them both anyway.

What I mean about USPSA not promoting the 3 "new" divisions is there needs to some kind of program or similar to get more interest, participation in them, it seems to me (my observations again) that they started the 3 new divisions and said " Ok here ya'll go " and just stood back and watched.

I don't know, I get frustrated myself at the low numbers of the 3"new" divisions (esp revolver because that is what I'm shooting now) but what needs to be done?

I'll do my part and try to promote the Revolver in the match I spoke of but I don't think 1 person will make that much of a difference.

Sorry for the long reply, I know USPSA is you and I and the next bunch down at "Down the Holler Practical shooters" but maybe with some type of "program" we can get things going in the right direction (Growth of our Sport).

Thanks, for your patience, and your hard work Flex I look forward to seeing you face to face somewhere, at a range.

SAM KEEN

[Guest Larry Cazes]

COST and Availability of workers. USPSA LOST money on the mulit-match format remember?

Guys, Is it really so terrible that USPSA lost money or barely breaks even on the nationals? I have been a member for the last 2 years NOT because it is a good investment and I expect it to appreciate, but because I enjoy shooting IPSC and want to be a part of the organisation.

That being said....If we look at the 2004 stats on the divisions that Jim posted it would make sense to break them up into 2 matches. One for Limited, Limited 10, and revolver and the other for Open and production. In this way, even though I cant make it out for 6-7 days straight, I can probably make it for one of these if it was 3-4 days total.

Limited 161

Limited-10 43

Open 218

Production 58

Revolver 17

[Jim Norman]

THat is what is being done this year. Two matches. One Limited, Production revolver and one Open L-10.

As to the 1/2 day format, I've been top Barry in the summer. It is HOT, make that HOT and the 1/2 day format meant you would not be out all day as well as it gave me a chance to see a bit of the country.

At our local match the base crew starts around 7am and finishes around 5-6 pm. that is building the match, doing registration , then shooting, then tearing iot all down. When I go to a big match, I'd like it to be a place where I am not so whipped that I can't shoot. It should be enjoyable, this si a game, not BUDs

Jim Norman

[hopalong]

Jim,

The HOT part is correct, in 2003 My friend And I made the Factory Gun Nationals in Barry, it was July and the shooting format was as it will be this year, shoot most all day.

If you keep hydrated, and are in just anything above out of shape it isn't too bad, the famous hill was pretty tough as I was not ready for it and ended up with sore legs after the 2nd day but that was my fault for not being ready.

The rental golf carts will/should help with that little problem.

I understand your point of view, and If it was not as expensive(to stay longer) that would be great for me. then I could drive around in the country in the evenings and look for the World Class Deer that Pike and Adams county ILL. are famous for.

Any way Hope all have a Happy Holidays and see some of you somewhere on the range.

Sam Keen

[dminor]

Sam,

You can see some of those deer hanging in the stats room! I will give you a tour at Nationals. If you are up for it we can even go sit in one of the deer stands above the range one evening.

[Flexmoney]

Hop,

What are things like in your neck of the woods?

Here are the numbers (combined for this year) from two clubs in Ohio:

OH11

• Limited - 39.6%
  
• Limited 10 - 29.22%
  
• Production - 13.96%
  
• Open - 10.7%
  
• Revolver - 6.5%
  

OH07

• Limited 10 - 31.33%
  
• Limited - 26.7%
  
• Production - 21.25%
  
• Open - 17.16%
  
• Revolver 3.5%
  

Limited 10 and Production are alive and well around here. Revolver is looking a bit rough...but, we have wheel-gunners that choose to shoot other divisions when play USPSA.

[hopalong]

Flex,

I will dig up some numbers and get back with them, but am willing to say they are nothing near yours, OPEN and Limited are the KING around here and OPEN is more popular than Limited.

You have heard of "High Tech Redneck"

Sam/hop

Got some numbers so I will just add them to this post:

My club: Cross Roads Sport shooting Assn, Glen MS 82 total shooters for the year

Limited - 34%

Open - 33% (77% combined for the year Open and Limited)

L-10 - 17%

Rev - 10%

prod - 5%

Memphis Sports shooting Assn (home away from home) 297 shooters for the year

Open - 49%

Limited - 35% (84% combined for the year Open and Limited)

Prod - 6%

Rev - 4%

L-10 - 3%

in the last year, at my range on two different occasions did I have someone else shoot revo. with me. it was a surprise to see anyone shooting Prod.

At Memphis there were also 2 matches where I had company and the poor guy shooting L-10 always shot his single stack and only had another on two occasions also.

That pretty much sums it up around here, these two clubs are where I mainly shoot unless I am off to a major match somewhere.

Now you see what I mean about not much participation from the other 3 divisions?

Sam

Let me add one more:

USPSA Nationals:

OPEN 43%

lim 32% ( 75% open and Limited combined)

Pro 11%

L-10 8%

Rev 3%

Just Limited class alone is bigger than the 3"new" divisions combined !!!!

Maybe the numbers don't agree with what I am trying to get across you tell me?

Now what do we do about it???

SAM

Just had a Minor Brain storm here,

The World shoot is once every 3 years.....

How about this.....

1 nationals, 1 gun only say starting 2006 OPEN Nationals, 2007 Limited Nationals

2008 L-10 Nationals, 2009 production Nationals, 2010 Revolver Nationals

That way every one Knows what gun will be shot and if they want to get in the race they can practice up on it and USPSA can have 1 nationals a year and won't have the problems that they think they have now.

That is too simple for sure !!!!!

SAM

[Flexmoney]

Hop,

I posted those numbers (in Ohio) to show that things aren't just what you might be seeing at your local clubs. I knew that MS didn't have much of a following in Production and L-10, Bryant (DBChaffin) had told me that in the past.

Weird. The two most popular guns around seem to be Glocks and single-stack 1911's. Those are the type of guns that new shooters show up with around here.

Are you guys getting new shooters? Or, is it pretty much the same group of shooters at every match?

(Do you think I should get after USPSA to do something about the lack of Open shooters in my Section? )

[hopalong]

Flex,

New shooters come and go, I have tried to keep up with some of them and most say they are intimidated by the open and limited shooters that shoot so fast.

we seem to pick up one or two new ones a year that stay withit very long.

You may just want to invite some of our open shooters up to shoot with you

Biggest thing I speek about is proof in the pudding look at the numbers from Nationals.

75% of the entire match was Open and Limited, while L-10, production and revolver combined did not even catch limited, the smaller of the two divisions.

I am not Knocking Limited and Open at all, I have all the respect for those guys as any one else, I just think as a whole there needs to be something done to promote the other 3 a little more, Like I mentioned earlier, the shooters are out there just look at SSP in IDPA, we just need to find a way to get them to come shoot our sport too.

I figure i'm beating a dead horse here but I will try with the Revolver Match and then we will see what kind of numbers show up for it, maybe that is what we(USPSA) need some more matches emphasizing the other guns?

Sam

[Jim Norman]

We have signed up a large number of new shooters over tha last year and we continue to do so. We welcome them in and we work with them to make them feel a part of thisngs. Look inward, do you have cliques? We all like to shoot with our friends, but make sure that the new guys are not just pushed off in to a corner to fend for themselves. It is critical that they be made to feel a part of things. Do this and you will see them shooting more. Some people are intimidated by the skills that the top guys in a club will possess, but if they are a part of the group, it is easier to tell them about how three years ago the top dog was running nearly out of control and missing every third shoot as well as piling on NS hits and foot faults. You can eduacte them to the fact that no one was born a GM

Jim

[bottomc]

Are you talking about yourself AGAIN Jim????

[Flexmoney]

Flex,

Biggest thing I speek about is proof in the pudding look at the numbers from Nationals.

I've looked at those numbers. I can't see where they prove much...other than shooter choice.

I know we have some shooters that go to ICORE matches. But, when they come to the USPSA matches, they choose to shoot their other guns (like new Open shorty guns and such). I don't know what USPSA could do to change their mind?

As far as wheel guns go...at the 2003 Factory Gun Nationals, there where 16 shooters. At the 2004 Combined Natioanls, there were 17.

I don't think the Nationals format makes a whole lot of difference. People shoot what they want. (and what they have)

The shooters that are serious enough to travel are often after the competition. And, the established competition is in Open and Limited.

But, the other divisions are building up. In 2003, Production had 3 Grand Masters at the Nats. In 2004, I think that number was up to 7 GM's.

I do like the idea of your Revolver match that you are putting on.

[hopalong]

Denise,

Thank you, If time permits would like to at least check out the ones on the stats wall.

Jim,

funny you asked about Cliques, there are a couple of obvious ones in our IDPA shooters but it is also our biggest growing part of the club, I invite them to shoot USPSA and most say that 1 game is all they want, can afford ect. ( I can relate to that too) and we have only 1 active GM and he is very friendly, answers questions ect. (been doing it since 78)

Flex,

I have an extra revolver or two here come on down and shoot, will supply gun ammo (minor or major) targets to shoot ect. Holster too (36 belt)....

Thanks for ya'lls time, maybe I'm trying to fix something that is not broken...

Sam

[Jim Norman]

Are you talking about yourself AGAIN Jim????

No, I am however mentioning the fact that the club I belong to has managed to sign up quite a few new members and to keep a large number of them active. This has to do with the caliber of the people that are members, not to diminish any other groups. The people I shoot with are a great bunch of people that bend over backwards to make people feel welcome and to help them along. The Match Director at aour club runs a tutuorial twice a month for new shoters or shooters new to Action shooting, those are then matched up with a more experianced shooter to mentor them through their first matches. many of these new people are becominghte backbone of our program.

As to cliques, we try to have just one, that is the people that shoot IPSC/USPSA and membership is open to all.

As to the cost of shooting IPSC/USPSA, if you are already shooting IDPA, you have everything you need to shoot our matches in L-10, production or revolver. Especially at the club level. One thing that a lot of IDPA shooters seem to think is that our shooting style is not "Tactical" enough. THe answer to that is simple, this is a game, same as IDPA, we keep score on paper agains targets that don't shoot back. Skill is developed by number of rounds sent downrange.

Jim

[Nik Habicht]

Sam and Kyle,

In case your interested here are the 04 numbers for my local club:

MID-01

L-10 26.60%

Production 25.94%

Limited 24.16%

Open 20.62%

Revolver 2.66%

We had 451 entries for the year. L-10 and Production are kicking butt. We had revolver entries at only 7 of our 12 matches this year, three months with one guy in the division, 3 months with two, and one month with 3......

I originally started in Limited division --- because I wanted to shoot against the best in the area. After a while I discovered that I could shoot three matches a month in production --- and be assured that there'd be a GM shooting that division at the match most of the time. I used my feeble percentage of match score as a guide to whether I was making progress or falling behind. For all of 2004, I've been shooting in Production's C-class against a couple of good friends --- and I've never had a better time. Want to grow one of the "lesser includeds?" Try to convince some friends in your ability class to shoot with/against you......

[Ted Murphy]

As to cliques, we try to have just one, that is the people that shoot IPSC/USPSA and membership is open to all.

As to the cost of shooting IPSC/USPSA, if you are already shooting IDPA, you have everything you need to shoot our matches in L-10, production or revolver.

Jim,

I've yet to shoot at a club regardless of the dicipline that didn't have a clique or two. Not a bad thing, just what it is.

As far as cost, equipment cost is one thing and match cost is another. A lot of IDPA shooters are used to ten dollar match fees and don't feel like paying twenty bucks for a USPSA match. IN the case of me and my girlfriend, We can go shoot an IDPA match for $20.00 combined or go shoot a USPSA match for $40.00 combined. At 3-6 matches a month in the it can start to add up. Even more so for major matches. She usually stays home when I shoot USPSA.

I once inquired about the $20.00 match fee and told it was to faciliate payouts. But with all the different divisions and classes, few if any ever get the requisite number of shooters to actually pay out. Always thought it a bit odd FWIW.

Ted

[Flexmoney]

I think the important thing is that new shooters don't show up and feel as if they don't fit in.

But, hey...we have probably drifted this thread far enough.

Lets shut this bad boy down. And, if somebody wants to talk about one of the many issues that have been mentioned here, lets start a thread for that topic.

[Nik Habicht]

Ted,

That hasn't exactly been my experience. The Mid-Atlantic Section guidelines under which both Jim's and my club operate provide for paying a division winner as soon as there are five entries in the division. They also provide for paying a class winner as soon as there three entries in class within a particular division. Here's how it seems to play out at most of my club matches: We pay four division winners and we pay one class winner per division, occasionally there'll be enough entries to pay a second. ( We tend to get more than five shooters per division, but usually we only get three C or B shooters.) If you're classification is D, A, or M --- it's less likely that there'll be a payout.

Given the current pricing on targets, pasters, paint, and the odd maintenance items; scoresheets, postage, activity fees, and prizes, there's a reason it costs $20/shooter if you're not a member of the host club. When I was shooting IDPA locally it was usually 2-3 stages for $10.- with a total round count of maybe 50. Most USPSA matches in the Mid-Atlantic region will run four to six field courses plus a classifier with a round count above 100. You make a choice and pay the fees required......