MetropolisLake Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 (edited) So basically my grandmother owns 450 acres of rolling Kentucky land with tall fescue that gets bush hogged twice a year, natural berms, lots of woods, and some VERY long fields, which looks very similar to Thunder Valley at Rockcastle. And, she is very sick due to a bad stroke, in the nursing home and paying for everything out of pocket. She’s doing ok for now but if it stretches out into a long term situation, $3,800 a month may put the farm at risk. It’s in a trust but the timing wasn’t exactly perfect based on Kentucky law. If you stay in a nursing home on the states dime, you can only have like $200 to your name, unless you sign over everything 5 years prior, otherwise they can come after personal property. Just kind of a questionable thing. Even though it’s in a trust, I’m named as the guy who calls all the shots for the farm in the future and am looking for alternative ways to put it to work and help with some of her bills. Worst case we’ll have somebody farm it but they did that before and didn’t like it all that much, plus much of it isn’t suitable for farming. So, my question is, for future reference, are 3-gun “benefit” meets viable at all? I’m guessing no but some of these meets have some serious money being passed around so I have to ask. I’m not hung up on this, I’ve been researching lots of things… grain farming, off-road trail runs, 3-d archery shoots, guided hunts, tilapia farming, enduro / hare scrambles, 3-gun… not sure what the best fit is. The most I have researched is 3-d archery, trail runs, and guided hunts. I have a pretty good idea about those and helped organize a trail race at a friends farm, got a first hand look at all the accounting. I know how to make the semi-guided hunts work and have been exposed to it quite a bit but it attracts some bad people who act like they own your place and therefore my grandmother doesn't agree with it. I think I kind of know how to make a 3-d archery range work and have talked to several people in the ASA about course design and insurance, but that's usually a situation where you have people coming in all the time, and being 1.5 hours away, I just can't maintain the place and prevent target theft to that degree. Might work on my own farm but not hers. Anyway, any ideas? Edited December 16, 2013 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Alternate income? You are 1.5 hours away. So, you are talking about weekends, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetropolisLake Posted December 16, 2013 Author Share Posted December 16, 2013 (edited) Alternate income? You are 1.5 hours away. So, you are talking about weekends, right? I'm potentially talking about a one weekend match per month club level match similar to like what Gateway 3-gun does. They do one day meets that costs $40. In June they had 42 people. This last Rockcastle club meet had 40 people as well so I'm assuming that's halfway normal attendance for a club meet. Rockcastle only charged $20 but they could get away with more. At $40, that's $1,600 in monthly revenue at those numbers, which may be feasible for this purpose if you already owned some appropriate land, which we do. What I do not know is how much insurance costs, if insurance is even available for one day meets instead of something that's open every day and has meets every weekend, what RO's expect for their services, if there are weird zoning considerations, things like that. I realize it sounds hair brained but only about half of it is farmable. At $100 an acre like our neighbor is getting, that would pay for half of her nursing home bills. Just trying to see if there's anything that could help out with the rest. Edited December 16, 2013 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSnSC Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Steel targets, target stands, timers, targets, tablets for scoring, plasters, clays, props, porta jons, advertising, liability insurance... It will take you a long time to get in the black at 1600 a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetropolisLake Posted December 17, 2013 Author Share Posted December 17, 2013 (edited) Steel targets, target stands, timers, targets, tablets for scoring, plasters, clays, props, porta jons, advertising, liability insurance... It will take you a long time to get in the black at 1600 a match. I was assuming about $6,000 for steel targets at first, hopefully less. I've seen multiple fun and fairly long stages be set up with about 16 5" steels and stands plus 3-4 longer distance targets. That's about $45 each with stands, brand new retail, from MGM. Basically $720 per stage for those. Flashers are $427, poppers $257. Maybe $1,500-$2,000 per stage, but buying in bulk from a different company and not having real long stages and using paper as much as possible may be significantly less. I already have multiple old cars to use as props plus not to mention the land, tractors, and bush hogs. Yeah that's a lot but if it's a one time cost that can be recouped then it's not a problem. I don't know about the rest of the shopping list. Clays/paper are pretty cheap, and free internet based advertising goes a long ways nowadays. Good timers are what, $150 each retail. I already have multiple tablets but I've seen this done with a pencil and piece of paper then entered into one laptop. Porta-johns... never considered that. Crap. Literally. And if they're not moved they'd probably get destroyed by trespassers wouldn't they. Biggest question is insurance. That alone may make this the silliest endeavor of all time. Edited December 17, 2013 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedge58 Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Just to be curious is the land laid out correctly? Safe for shooting or would you have to do some excavating? That could be a hidden charge. We went thru the same thing with my grandmother. Long story short everything was liquidated all money paid nursing home bills to it ran out. We should have been more proactive but you live and learn. Upside is she is well taken care of with the best care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetropolisLake Posted December 17, 2013 Author Share Posted December 17, 2013 (edited) Just to be curious is the land laid out correctly? Safe for shooting or would you have to do some excavating? That could be a hidden charge. We went thru the same thing with my grandmother. Long story short everything was liquidated all money paid nursing home bills to it ran out. We should have been more proactive but you live and learn. Upside is she is well taken care of with the best care. It's naturally seemingly very suitable, otherwise I wouldn't even ask. Several places have a nice open field with a wide and steep hill at the end where you could shoot into it and/or hundreds of yards of dense woods before you hit another property line. I saw nothing in Thunder Valley at Rockcastle that was more suitable in terms of natural terrain. Yeah the nursing home situation sucks. My parents should have been even more proactive than they were. Lots of workarounds exist in Kentucky. I'm doing what I can but it's all after the fact. Just need to save the farm at this point. My dad is negotiating with some farmers about growing crops and he is buying a bigger tractor and a batwing bush hog for the rest. It's on the conservation program but by the time you pay somebody else to bush hog, it eats up all your profits. Edited December 17, 2013 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openclassterror Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 If ever there was a time for a friggin lawyer this would be it. Those devious souls will have some way to hide the assets from the state. Have you tried talking to somebody to find out if you can save it without a bunch of people shootin the place up? My concern is that if ever you wanted to use it for something else, the lead abatement costs could probably negate any profit you make off the shooting range idea. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I think it takes a fair amount of time to design, build, and administrate stages. For $1600 per month gross profit, you could probably get a part time job, put the same hours into it, make about as much money, and not have any of the liability. In this part of Kentucky, leased tillable acres is closer to $200/acre. I would think the market in western ky would bear similar prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetropolisLake Posted December 17, 2013 Author Share Posted December 17, 2013 (edited) I think it takes a fair amount of time to design, build, and administrate stages. For $1600 per month gross profit, you could probably get a part time job, put the same hours into it, make about as much money, and not have any of the liability. In this part of Kentucky, leased tillable acres is closer to $200/acre. I would think the market in western ky would bear similar prices. It probably does take longer than I could ever imagine, and you would know that as well as anybody. Obviously having some major tax write-offs and a closer place to shoot is a big part of my curiosity. My dad keeps saying $100 an acre is on the very low side of things but I haven't seen it in my immediate area. My own land is surrounded by 300 acres and while I just use my place as a personal game reserve, $100 is what they are getting. Only last year they were getting about half that. Most people that I know around west Paducah share crop and take 25% of the total sale and I don't have firm figures to go on. One year, one neighbor with 30 acres sharecropped with beans and got $4,000 which is $133 an acre but another year there was a drought and I'm not sure he got half that. Edited December 17, 2013 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetropolisLake Posted December 17, 2013 Author Share Posted December 17, 2013 (edited) If ever there was a time for a friggin lawyer this would be it. Those devious souls will have some way to hide the assets from the state. My wife is actually an attorney but she doesn't specialize in being evil. This nursing home crap... jeez... if you're broke, it's free. If you have anything at all, it costs out the ass. Makes no sense. Talked with my dad tonight, at this point we're concentrating on farming it again, and keeping all of the proceeds from the conservation resource program due to mowing it ourselves. That may be as much as we could ever hope for. If it really is closer to $200 an acre like Bryan mentioned then we're golden. If we could farm about 250 acres at $180 that would pay for her entire stay for a year, not considering taxes of course. I didn't think land was being leased for anywhere near that much. Edited December 17, 2013 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 (edited) If you put on a major match I'll give you $300. Start a club match. The tarheel guys get 100 plus shooters 1-2 times a month. That's serious money but they also have a good talent pool of shooters nearby. How far away is Ft. Campbell? Insurance is just that insurance. I give the company that the NRA endorses $700 a year or so to insure my 3 acres I shoot on. Unfortunately, you never know how much insurance you need until something bad happens. Edited December 22, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunCat Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 (edited) If ever there was a time for a friggin lawyer this would be it. Those devious souls will have some way to hide the assets from the state. My wife is actually an attorney but she doesn't specialize in being evil. This nursing home crap... jeez... if you're broke, it's free. If you have anything at all, it costs out the ass. Makes no sense. Talked with my dad tonight, at this point we're concentrating on farming it again, and keeping all of the proceeds from the conservation resource program due to mowing it ourselves. That may be as much as we could ever hope for. If it really is closer to $200 an acre like Bryan mentioned then we're golden. If we could farm about 250 acres at $180 that would pay for her entire stay for a year, not considering taxes of course. I didn't think land was being leased for anywhere near that much. Most likely your best plan for an income source. In south Christian county the cash rent per acre is well over $200, but that is large acreage and considered some of the best farm land in the state. Avoid the shares, go for cash rent. Most farmers carry crop insurance for drought, etc. and will make money in a bad year, you should too. I'd love the idea of another place to shoot on this end of the state, but realistically it will take a while to build a reputation that consistently draws 40+ shooters, then you still have to deal with target and grounds maintenance, rain outs, scheduling conflicts, etc. Edited December 22, 2013 by GunCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireman489 Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Being a life long bow hunter (Ive hunted your area quite a bit) I would say do that BUT we both know that's very seasonal, and if you dont have 150's around every white oak its tough to get off the ground in that business, plus all the negatives that come along w people who "think they own you", because they paid ya 1500 or $2000 to hunt . With that being said if it were me I would try to turn it into a "Multipurpose park"...that offers, say maybe, 3gun, 3d archery, a motocross park, enduro races , "tough mudder" type events etc..... you could put on 2 tough mudders a year in the winter time, then have a monthly 3D & 3gun match... throw in some motocross or enduro during the summer months .... you get the idea... I'm in Florida but I dont mind driving to North Carolina for the Tarheel monthly match... if it was big enough/ good enough I'd drive to KY too.... God only knows how many times Ive driven to KY & Ohio to deer hunt over the last 25 years.... Just a thought, good luck w whatever you decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgt Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 (edited) a few ideas FWIW 1) Get someone to help pay for initial improvements. Maybe team up with someone (organizer, promoter, ??) looking for a place for some sort of special match or event - where they would bear part of the cost of the improvements as part of prep for the match? Kind of like how for the olympics or worlds fair stuff gets built or improved for that event, and after that you are left with facilities/resources that can be used ongoing? 2) Lease out a couple club trailers / storage shed. Maybe a local club or two would like a alternate practice spot a few times a month. Lease them an empty steel container (or spot for one) for their stuff, and give them set range days for a fee, and they will manage the course and cleanup during their times. In the end you don't really care what they are doing as long as they safely manage their members (safety, equipment, clean up). But maybe a way to look at your resource more expansively rather than solely for what you want to manage. 3) Have a 'practice' or 'fun shoot' before or after nearby major match. I don't know the calendar for matches for your area, or how folks willing to travel. But if anything going on where there is a critical mass of the folks you want for something regional or national somewhat nearby, maybe time one of your events to give them a) alternate place to practice tune up before the match or place to wind down and socialize after the match with something fun, more unstructured, if its workable w/in travel expenses they've already incurred. Edited December 22, 2013 by trgt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vespid_Wasp Posted December 26, 2013 Share Posted December 26, 2013 How many acres are tillable and how big/small are the fields? It's a PITA to farm a patchwork of small fields. That being said your best return is going to be renting the ground to a local farmer. Typical share rents around here are 1/3 going to the landlord and 2/3 to the farmer with the farmer paying all input costs. I would advise against enduro/trail runs as that could cause significant damage to the soils on the property that would take a lot of time to correct. Cash rents are all over the place with the grain market being down from a couple of years ago, farmers who were offering eye popping cash rents might be in a little trouble of corn dips below $4. Share rents are stable and dependable but leave you with the responsibility to market your own grain. If you share rent and you sell it across the scales in the fall you are leaving money on the table. With a share rent you might suffer a bit on a drought year but if the land is owned free and clear you can afford to weather the ups and downs. Ground rented for hay generally doesn't bring what row-crop ground brings. But you can make hay on rough rolling ground that would be unsuitable for corn and beans. You could also consider leasing it for pasture. A farmer could string a hot-wire and graze cattle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted December 26, 2013 Share Posted December 26, 2013 (edited) Before you go any further, check your local ordinances. You can't just set up a shooting range anyplace you choose, particularly if it's for anything other than private use. And that's likely going to include public hearings. It's the rifle part that's likely to prove the most difficult because of the potential distances. Pistol is not as bad but still not easy. Shotgun will be the easiest. You might want to start by looking at setting up a few skeet shoots. Keep the cost to a minumum and include some kind of lunch and take donations. Get some local businesses to throw in some prizes. Edited December 26, 2013 by Graham Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetropolisLake Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) How many acres are tillable and how big/small are the fields? It's a PITA to farm a patchwork of small fields. This is part of what we are running in to. I don't know that for sure. Used to, we farmed everything. We grew alot of popcorn in the early 90's. After that, the EPA and whatnot stepped in. Basically we can't farm hillsides or anything around drainage ditches or creeks. Well, we have alot of hillsides, drainage ditches, and creeks, plus alot of standing timber. So even though there is alot of seemingly wide open space, much of it is not farmable due to EPA regulations, it's several patches. For the past 20+ years it's all been in the conservation resource program. Basically we get paid to grow tall fescue and mow it a certain way at certain times of the year in order to attract wildlife. So basically I have a crap ton of deer and quail but not a lot of income. Basically 450 acres worth of stuff as shown below but not alot of huge flat wide open fields that are uninterrupted by anything including ditches and hillsides. This is 4 out of about 20 fields/areas. Second pic is exactly 250 yards long just to visualize the scale. Edited January 15, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vespid_Wasp Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 (edited) Your best return on land like what your pictures show is to rent the pastures to a farmer for hay. That is IF you want to take it out of the CRP program. You can use google maps acreage tool to map the fields and see how many acres are hay ground. Or you can go to the farm service agency and they will map it for you. I don't know what hay ground cash rents for in your area so your best option would be to talk with multiple farmers and ask for bids. I would highly discourage you from doing any kind of motocross/truck racing stuff on your land. It will cause major erosion issues that will be expensive to prevent/repair and the return will be poor. Considering the expense of building a shooting range, even one on natural terrain... your best bet is agriculture. Another option would be to find some wealthy hunters from the city looking to lease some hunting ground. You can set your own ground rules as far as you and your family retaining the right to hunt on all or portions of it. If a farmer raising hay for cattle seeded the pastures with alfalfa, timothy, etc.... it will only enhance the deer hunting. Deer don't eat grass. If you live 1.5 hours away, trying to manage weekly archery/3-gun shoots is going to be a constant hassle for you. Ask around and find a farmer who is a good steward of the land. Find the right guy who will treat your land like they own it themselves.Are all the open fields reasonably accessible? A farmer will need to be able to get trucks or tractors in or out to move round bales. Another option is running a hot-wire and grazing some cattle. You could also consider having it logged in addition to renting out the pasture ground. Edited January 15, 2014 by Vespid_Wasp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Let me add one thing to this. I know a fellow that teaches long range one-on-one classes and he rents a section of a farm with a lot of hills like you describe. It's land that the owner does not or cannot farm and what cattle he has are in an area well away from the shooting. You might want to look into what's involved in setting up a training range of some kind. Check with the state, county and local police and see if they might want the use of a training range. Getting them on your side would help speed up the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyM Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I started hosting matches a little over a year ago. It wasn't for the money, it was so I could shoot more of the type stages I wanted to shoot and provide a place for others. At the time, there wasn't many multi gun matches to shoot without driving 3-4 hours. Turned out, I enjoy running the matches I run. Given the hours invested every month in stage design, set-up, running it, tear down and clean up, I'd be better off, financially, putting in those hours at work. To start, I put around $10k into it. That covered targets, props, trailer, timers, insurance, etc... Not saying a little side money can't be made, but the ROI is a while. Already having land, that's one less party you have to pay and can pocket that. Looks like some beautiful land to get some lead therapy on! Best wishes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I would head to a Barnes and Noble bookstore and pick up the latest copy of "Covey Rise" magazine. https://www.coveyrisemagazine.com/ flip through it. It is like the GQ or Esquire of hunting periodicals. Specifically, look at the ads for the Orvis approved and/or Beretta Trident (one trident, two trident, three trident) approved hunting lodges . See if there are any in your area. Then check out their websites. You say it is in CRP already. I am not saying for you to start your own hunting lodge, but you might try approaching them or Cabela's to sell outright. Near me, there is Nilo Farms (which is Olin spelled backwards. They are the guys who are actually behind the Winchester primers and ammunition you buy.) http://www.nilofarms.com/ what they want for a one day upland gamebird hunt will make your jaw drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sudden Death Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Sell the land, your grandmother will be able to give some of that money away ( family ) take the rest and make her comfortable and enjoy the rest of the time you have with her. I do not say this to sound mean, yes money does come hard these days, I went through a similar situation with my grand parents, they are no longer with me, but I would not have done it any different and I fully enjoyed the time I had left with them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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