Loading devices on barrel or ?

[RevolverJockey]

Mike,

I don't think anyone was challenging what might well be actual ruling. I doubt I will ever need it now with the 8 round clips but I would be interested to know if they are legal. I have seen people put a magnet in their pocket for pickup stages and slap it against from the outside of their pants at the start, not saying that is legal either, but no one challenged it and I am pretty sure they weren't carrying it around the whole match. Lol. Since they aren't widely popular I doubt it would be worth getting a ruling.

It might be worth seeing if I have time to make an additional single post and ask before the match if there is a lofty pickup stage configure my belt for it with the additional post. I LOVE my server and couldn't imagine shooting a match without it as muscle memory is key to my shooting but it is not good for loading in a hurry.

Side note - Alec, I was talking with James tonight and your follower is not SUPPOSED lift up and lock. May be worth giving him a call and see if there is a replacement follower or something that could fix your binding problem.

Lee

[JAustin]

I'm not sure that widget idea is legal for USPSA. I haven't looked at the rules in detail, but I don't think you can add equipment to the belt for a particular stage. This came up at Nationals in Barry a number of years ago when Nils Jonasson used a belt pouch (everybody called it his "murse") to hold moonclips that were grabbed out of a shooting bag at the start position. As I recall, the question was whether Nils had used the pouch throughout the entire match, or not.

So you might want to check the rules if you're planning to rely on the widget.

Interesting that you comment on Lee's widget but not Snertly's device to hold a post out.Word to the wise Agreed. This actually is a great discussion to have before one of us has a bad day.

So if you carry a widget in a pouch on your gun belt or hung by a lanyard the entire match is it employable on a Server or post holder during a specific stage?

I think Snert's suggestion of using a moonclip (or one of the plastic spacers that are available for the North Mountain product) would probably be illegal too, if it were added and removed at various times during the match. The solution many of us have settled upon is to simply leave a moonclip (or plastic spacer) in place on each post all the time.

If Lee's widget can be rigged to be in place on the moonclip server all the time, and simply engaged or not engaged depending on the requirements of the stage, I think it would be perfectly legal as well. If the current version of the server allows for the follower to be locked out, that would seem to be an excellent solution.

This is not something most ROs would ever catch. And certainly not something most revolver shooters would ever make an issue out of. But I would hate to see somebody get dinged by a nazi RO, which is why I made the comment. Word to the wise, right?

[JAustin]

I'm not sure that widget idea is legal for USPSA. I haven't looked at the rules in detail, but I don't think you can add equipment to the belt for a particular stage. This came up at Nationals in Barry a number of years ago when Nils Jonasson used a belt pouch (everybody called it his "murse") to hold moonclips that were grabbed out of a shooting bag at the start position. As I recall, the question was whether Nils had used the pouch throughout the entire match, or not.

So you might want to check the rules if you're planning to rely on the widget.

Interesting that you comment on Lee's widget but not Snertly's device to hold a post out.Word to the wise Agreed. This actually is a great discussion to have before one of us has a bad day.

So if you carry a widget in a pouch on your gun belt or hung by a lanyard the entire match is it employable on a Server or post holder during a specific stage?

I think Snert's suggestion of using a moonclip (or one of the plastic spacers that are available for the North Mountain product) would probably be illegal too, if it were added and removed at various times during the match. The solution many of us have settled upon is to simply leave a moonclip (or plastic spacer) in place on each post all the time.

If Lee's widget can be rigged to be in place on the moonclip server all the time, and simply engaged or not engaged depending on the requirements of the stage, I think it would be perfectly legal as well. If the current version of the server allows for the follower to be locked out, that would seem to be an excellent solution.

This is not something most ROs would ever catch. And certainly not something most revolver shooters would ever make an issue out of. But I would hate to see somebody get dinged by a nazi RO, which is why I made the comment. Word to the wise, right?

[Carmoney]

Agreed. This actually is a great discussion to have before one of us has a bad day.
So if you carry a widget in a pouch on your gun belt or hung by a lanyard the entire match is it employable on a Server or post holder during a specific stage?

Good question, James. If the rule says you're not supposed to move the gear around on the belt, I'm not sure the pouch idea would be legal. But I would think it would be legal to hang the widget by a lanyard right next to the server so it could be employed when needed. But that seems arbitrary and silly to differentiate between those two options, doesn't it?

Let me ask you this--would it be possible to add some kind of little lock-out device that is permanently mounted to the upper right side of the moon server? Something that could be flipped down into place to block the follower when needed? That would be a cool solution.

[Toolguy]

How about a notch in the server rail with the spring compressed where the pusher could drop into the notch for loading the rail, then once all the moon clips are on it could be released (pushed up out of the notch) to push against them? That wouldn't add anything to the server and make it easy to load the server every time, not just for special situations.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Toolguy

[RevolverJockey]

Agreed. This actually is a great discussion to have before one of us has a bad day.

So if you carry a widget in a pouch on your gun belt or hung by a lanyard the entire match is it employable on a Server or post holder during a specific stage?

Good question, James. If the rule says you're not supposed to move the gear around on the belt, I'm not sure the pouch idea would be legal. But I would think it would be legal to hang the widget by a lanyard right next to the server so it could be employed when needed. But that seems arbitrary and silly to differentiate between those two options, doesn't it?

Let me ask you this--would it be possible to add some kind of little lock-out device that is permanently mounted to the upper right side of the moon server? Something that could be flipped down into place to block the follower when needed? That would be a cool solution.

I think this would be easily done. Something spring loaded that is only held engaged by the follower tension - think child safety lock on a drawer. I'll prototype one up today and take some pictures.

Lee

[alecmc]

Actually there is nothing wrong with my server, and being able to lock it back is fine :

From the man himself :

Your Server is not broken. Lee miss understood me. A batch of frames came out with the rail slot in the bulkhead cut to high. The fix was to file the slot a little lower, the extra height does not hurt or bother anything.

And you found a great use for the extra mobility of the rail. Good job dude.

Now I'm starting to re think they all should be made like yours. It is interesting to see what others are coming up with.

See you on the range. James

[RevolverJockey]

I completely misunderstood. My bad.

Lee

[thermobollocks]

Curious how others shoot a stage when the course description involves leaving your loading devices on a table or barrel?

I normally stack four or more loaded moons two high and try and pick four up at a time with two hands and place them on my moon holders.

Then I grab the last one a load my revolver.,

If you have a spring loaded moon clip server, what do you do?

.

I totally glazed over who the thread starter was... I think I know exactly the stage you had in mind.

I'm also thinking about throwing some more magnets onto my belt or moon rack to see if I can just kind of shovel the moons into the general area and still have them retained solidly enough for running around.

[earplug]

I expect to see more unloaded starts on Monday.

[JAustin]

I expect to see more unloaded starts on Monday.

The nature of our sport being defensive and short term offensive, such as clearing a house.

The idea of starting a stage with your gun belt on and empty but usable once you get to your gun and ammo is apauling to me. The pickup stage should be simulating that you are wearing nothing more than PJs.

The stage round count limit and shots per position are proof of this. We are not hunting zombies and shot our gun so hot we can not reload it any more and out of ammo, nor are we shooting our way down an Iraqy street at witch point were hot and empty.

Might sound a bit bias come from me but still simple the way I feel about pickup stages during regular matches. Rogue matches anything goes. James

[Akkid17]

JAustin-

That sounds like idpa to me

[pskys2]

I expect to see more unloaded starts on Monday.

The nature of our sport being defensive and short term offensive, such as clearing a house.

The idea of starting a stage with your gun belt on and empty but usable once you get to your gun and ammo is apauling to me. The pickup stage should be simulating that you are wearing nothing more than PJs.

The stage round count limit and shots per position are proof of this. We are not hunting zombies and shot our gun so hot we can not reload it any more and out of ammo, nor are we shooting our way down an Iraqy street at witch point were hot and empty.

Might sound a bit bias come from me but still simple the way I feel about pickup stages during regular matches. Rogue matches anything goes. James

Beware of what you desire. There's a video somewhere of this event in Iowa of all places!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/snertley/3692399277/in/photostream/

It's a COF that started in a Hot Tub and at least one competitor took it to heart.

[redmist10]

This came up at Nationals in Barry a number of years ago when Nils Jonasson used a belt pouch (everybody called it his "murse") to hold moonclips that were grabbed out of a shooting bag at the start position.

I was there when that happened! I think I might even have video some place of Jerry doing his "murse" dance...I remember he was trying one on and hopping all over the place to see if the pouch fell off or the ammo fell out. Wow, I'd forgotten all about the magic JM "Murse dance." I gotta dig out my old 8mm tapes...

[Pete Whyte]

Why not just load up the same way you would normally load up. That way seems the fair way to do it. Pete

[ktm300]

But I would hate to see somebody get dinged by a nazi RO, which is why I made the comment. Word to the wise, right?

So the definition of a nazi RO is one that knows and follows the rules?

I guess my definition of a cheater is someone that is willing to cheat to get an advantage on a stage. If you have to be worried about the RO calling it then you think it is cheating.

The simple way would be to write to NROI and ask the question. If you add it for a specific stage and it is part of loading it just might be illegal. I would probably call the RM and let him figure it out.

[RevolverJockey]

Why not just load up the same way you would normally load up. That way seems the fair way to do it. Pete

The clip servers take quite a bit of time to load up. I haven't put it on a timer lately but conservatively, it would take 2-3 times longer to load up properly. Pick your equipment you pick your fate I suppose but I could see if it was a long, high round count field course, and you were shooting a 6 shot, it could cost you a stage.

With posts, I can load two clips in each hand, if staged properly and put 8 clips on the belt in just two grabs off the bench, barrel etc. Since you are able to handle 4 clips simultaneously, this can be accomplished in about 4 seconds or so.

With a server, the rounds have to straddle the bar, the follower has to be retracted and most of the time, the clips have to be overlapped so they don't bind up. It simply doesn't load fast easily. In this operation each clip just be handled one at time with one hand only and truthfully you kinda need to look and see what you are doing. I will time it today and see how long it takes and post but I would bet it is at least 10 seconds or so to get 6 clips loaded and that much difference is enough to blow a stage.

Lastly, I have never encountered it before but if you were ever to shoot a stage where you started with the gun loaded and holster but remaining ammo staged on a barrel (if that is even legal) where you engaged a target array prior to picking up he rest of your ammo, you CANNOT load a clip server one handed. You would have to set your revolver down (again assuming this would be legal) or keep making return trips back for each clip. Another reason why I keep a single post next to my clip server.

-Lee

Edited February 22, 2014 by RevolverJockey

[pskys2]

ktm300: Range Nazi's became a term used to describe an overzealous Safety Officer, in IDPA they have this general penalty for Failure To Do Right and it means what it says. It can cover anything from not reloading properly to too much of the body exposed to a target in the COF, the problem is it's up to the subjective discretion of the SO on what is and what is not right. I've never heard of it used about a USPSA RO, but I guess it could be if someone was being obnoxious in their treatment of competitors?

revolverjocky: Only in Mulit-Gun is it ok to lay down a weapon, and then only in the prescribed safety box/area, once you have started a COF. To do so will get you DQ'd. The only way to load a moon clip carrier, or mag pouch, after the beep is to do it with your Pistol holstered, or with one hand being careful to not sweep yourself. You can re-holster during a COF, as long as it is done safely, and doesn't break the 180.

USPSA Rule:

8.2.5 A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun

after the start signal. However, a competitor may re-holster provided

this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded

or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1.

Edited February 22, 2014 by pskys2

[Carmoney]

I quit using the term "Nazi RO" after being confronted by a moderator who informed me that such a reference can be offensive to people of German descent.

[Norther]

You CAN set down your gun in USPSA, without penalty, during the COF. 10.5.3

[snertley]

I expect to see more unloaded starts on Monday.

The nature of our sport being defensive and short term offensive, such as clearing a house.

The idea of starting a stage with your gun belt on and empty but usable once you get to your gun and ammo is apauling to me. The pickup stage should be simulating that you are wearing nothing more than PJs.

The stage round count limit and shots per position are proof of this. We are not hunting zombies and shot our gun so hot we can not reload it any more and out of ammo, nor are we shooting our way down an Iraqy street at witch point were hot and empty.

Might sound a bit bias come from me but still simple the way I feel about pickup stages during regular matches. Rogue matches anything goes. James

Beware of what you desire. There's a video somewhere of this event in Iowa of all places!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/snertley/3692399277/in/photostream/

It's a COF that started in a Hot Tub and at least one competitor took it to heart.

OMG! I forgot I had that picture out there.....

[pskys2]

You CAN set down your gun in USPSA, without penalty, during the COF. 10.5.3

Not that simple. Here's the whole Rule:

10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or

unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded

or not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of

fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other

stable object will not be disqualified provided:

10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the

handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or

another stable object, and

USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition • 47

10.5.3.2 The competitor remains within 3 feet of the handgun at all times

(except where the handgun is placed at a greater distance, under

the supervision of a Range Official, in order to comply with a

start position), and

10.5.3.3 The provisions of Rule 10.5.2 do not occur, and

10.5.3.4 The handgun is in the ready condition as specified in Section

8.1, or

10.5.3.5 A self-loading pistol has an empty chamber, the magazine

removed and the slide locked open, or

10.5.3.6 A revolver has the cylinder open and empty.

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle

of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from

the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop,

allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or

not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

10.5.6 While facing downrange, allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to

point uprange beyond a radius of 3 feet from a competitor’s feet while

drawing or re-holstering.

Not something to try in the middle of a COF. I'd bet if you did you will get stopped and

have to argue or file a protest to prove your point. And remember if the RO says he

thought you violated one of those provisions, his observation is not subject to a protest.

So if you plan to lay your pistol down to reload off of an item, then inform the RO before you

start and then perform the action VERY deliberately.

[Norther]

That's why I cited the rule, so you could read those conditions. They're pretty easy, really, for a revolver: set it down (don't drop it), keep it pointed downrange, and stay within 3 feet of it. Not too hard, nor too hard for the RO. Still, I can't imagine a situation where I'd want to do it.

[hearthco]

I

The idea of starting a stage with your gun belt on and empty but usable once you get to your gun and ammo is apauling to me. The pickup stage should be simulating that you are wearing nothing more than PJs.

Sounds like a Cliff stage.

Edited February 24, 2014 by hearthco

[thermobollocks]

That's why I cited the rule, so you could read those conditions. They're pretty easy, really, for a revolver: set it down (don't drop it), keep it pointed downrange, and stay within 3 feet of it. Not too hard, nor too hard for the RO. Still, I can't imagine a situation where I'd want to do it.

I've had a stage like this before. Even got it on tape. The stage had you start loaded and holstered, but all additional loading devices were on a barrel in the center of the course. So, I shot 3 targets, grounded the pistol on top of the barrel, then shoved my belt full of moons. Of course, I told the RO I was going to be setting the pistol down first. That stage was an enormous cluster of unpleasantness.