Optional Reshoots at Nationals?!?!

[MVZ]

This has happened before. Some years ago at open Nat's in Berry a question arose re wether plastic barrels you shot through we're hard or soft cover. One squad was given the option to reshoot. Some took the reshoot others didn't

MVZ

[MVZ]

This has happened before. Some years ago at open Nat's in Berry a question arose re wether plastic barrels you shot through we're hard or soft cover. One squad was given the option to reshoot. Some took the reshoot others didn't

MVZ

[titandriver]

Weren't optional re-shoots given the one year at Berry- late '90's - when there was a torrential downpour one day during the Nationals match?

Edited September 26, 2013 by titandriver

[motosapiens]

If there was something wrong on the stage that was clearly to the shooter's detriment, and not all shooters wanted to reshoot, I'm totally ok with the idea of making it optional, even if there's not an official rule supporting it. I've seen it before on REF gray areas, where an appliance didn't work 100% perfectly, but the shooter dealt with it and otherwise had a good run, and just didn't want to screw with reshooting.

If the steel fell just fine for some people, even tho it was set too hard, what possible sporting or fairness purpose is served by forcing everyone to reshoot? I would say this is a good topic for range-lawyer wannabe's, but the bottom line is to make the sport fair, and as far as I know, this was fair.

[Vlad]

Well making it fair is why kinda the point of a rule book. I don't conceptually disagree with a notion of a optional reshoot under certain circumstances, but if we have a rule book then we should .. you know .. kinda sorta follow it, maybe at the national at least.

[Gary Stevens]

You almost have to drop a nuke on a stage to get one thrown out. It is just something no MD/RM wants to do.

I know zip about this situation, but it might be that they couldn't determine which shooters had a problem and which ones did not. Hence the not really by the rulebook answer.

[Vlad]

And that makes sense, but maybe then we should fix the rule book to allow for this.

[Gary Stevens]

And that makes sense, but maybe then we should fix the rule book to allow for this.

Or not

[Vlad]

And that makes sense, but maybe then we should fix the rule book to allow for this.

Or not

Well I've ignored this for a couple of years, but did we have a rule book fight recently? Nothing gets the blood going like a good argument over new rule books.

[38SuperDub]

Question - how can they DETERMINE which shooter had issues? Video isn't allowed. If they don't call the REF right then did it go something like this:

RM - Mr RO Who all had issues

RO - Well shit - I don't know - I didn't remember to check it first now you want me to GUESS which shooter had issues

RM - good point - lets just give them all the optoin to reshoot

RO - Sounds good to me - which rule is that

RM - Rule 1.4.5.3.6.32.5 - its the one that says I can make up anything I want

RO - Perfect

[motosapiens]

Question - how can they DETERMINE which shooter had issues? Video isn't allowed. If they don't call the REF right then did it go something like this:

RM - Mr RO Who all had issues

RO - Well shit - I don't know - I didn't remember to check it first now you want me to GUESS which shooter had issues

RM - good point - lets just give them all the optoin to reshoot

RO - Sounds good to me - which rule is that

RM - Rule 1.4.5.3.6.32.5 - its the one that says I can make up anything I want

RO - Perfect

You make some valid points, and when you promote or RM a major match I trust you will handle it differently. If you were shooting limited nats, I trust you will protest the alleged actions. I'm ok with that.

I wasn't working that stage and don't know the skinny, but having worked with experienced rangemasters, I feel pretty confident that they used their experience and judgement in the way that worked best for all parties concerned and for the sport. I believe that an experienced rangemaster has the tools to be given a little more latitude on the rules than an RO or CRO. You can't anticipate every possible situation.

[beltjones]

Question - how can they DETERMINE which shooter had issues? Video isn't allowed. If they don't call the REF right then did it go something like this:

RM - Mr RO Who all had issues

RO - Well shit - I don't know - I didn't remember to check it first now you want me to GUESS which shooter had issues

RM - good point - lets just give them all the optoin to reshoot

RO - Sounds good to me - which rule is that

RM - Rule 1.4.5.3.6.32.5 - its the one that says I can make up anything I want

RO - Perfect

You make some valid points, and when you promote or RM a major match I trust you will handle it differently. If you were shooting limited nats, I trust you will protest the alleged actions. I'm ok with that.

I wasn't working that stage and don't know the skinny, but having worked with experienced rangemasters, I feel pretty confident that they used their experience and judgement in the way that worked best for all parties concerned and for the sport. I believe that an experienced rangemaster has the tools to be given a little more latitude on the rules than an RO or CRO. You can't anticipate every possible situation.

Yeah, as long as the person making the decision is sufficiently high up in the organization they should be able to make up the rules as they go.

[motosapiens]

Question - how can they DETERMINE which shooter had issues? Video isn't allowed. If they don't call the REF right then did it go something like this:

RM - Mr RO Who all had issues

RO - Well shit - I don't know - I didn't remember to check it first now you want me to GUESS which shooter had issues

RM - good point - lets just give them all the optoin to reshoot

RO - Sounds good to me - which rule is that

RM - Rule 1.4.5.3.6.32.5 - its the one that says I can make up anything I want

RO - Perfect

You make some valid points, and when you promote or RM a major match I trust you will handle it differently. If you were shooting limited nats, I trust you will protest the alleged actions. I'm ok with that.

I wasn't working that stage and don't know the skinny, but having worked with experienced rangemasters, I feel pretty confident that they used their experience and judgement in the way that worked best for all parties concerned and for the sport. I believe that an experienced rangemaster has the tools to be given a little more latitude on the rules than an RO or CRO. You can't anticipate every possible situation.

Yeah, as long as the person making the decision is sufficiently high up in the organization they should be able to make up the rules as they go.

Don't like it? go to RM school and run it your way. Be part of the solution.

(or at least wait until you find out all the details of the situation before b!tching and moaning on the interwebz)

Edited September 28, 2013 by motosapiens

[beltjones]

Question - how can they DETERMINE which shooter had issues? Video isn't allowed. If they don't call the REF right then did it go something like this:

RM - Mr RO Who all had issues

RO - Well shit - I don't know - I didn't remember to check it first now you want me to GUESS which shooter had issues

RM - good point - lets just give them all the optoin to reshoot

RO - Sounds good to me - which rule is that

RM - Rule 1.4.5.3.6.32.5 - its the one that says I can make up anything I want

RO - Perfect

You make some valid points, and when you promote or RM a major match I trust you will handle it differently. If you were shooting limited nats, I trust you will protest the alleged actions. I'm ok with that.

I wasn't working that stage and don't know the skinny, but having worked with experienced rangemasters, I feel pretty confident that they used their experience and judgement in the way that worked best for all parties concerned and for the sport. I believe that an experienced rangemaster has the tools to be given a little more latitude on the rules than an RO or CRO. You can't anticipate every possible situation.

Yeah, as long as the person making the decision is sufficiently high up in the organization they should be able to make up the rules as they go.

Don't like it? go to RM school and run it your way.

How does that make any sense? You're saying if someone goes to RM school then they get latitude with how they apply the rules? You don't see this as a problem?

[Gary Stevens]

Does anyone know what type of activator and how it was improperly re-set? What did it do or not do when it was not properly re-set?

The reasons I ask this is that it seems the shooter and the RO would notice that something had changed and immediately corrected it.

[38SuperDub]

Exactly - how is it a whole squad went without anyone noticing or saying anything? Then they were basically asked "who wants to reshoot"

[38SuperDub]

ETA - No I wasn't there - but this is first hand from a shooter that was on that squad

[motosapiens]

Question - how can they DETERMINE which shooter had issues? Video isn't allowed. If they don't call the REF right then did it go something like this:

RM - Mr RO Who all had issues

RO - Well shit - I don't know - I didn't remember to check it first now you want me to GUESS which shooter had issues

RM - good point - lets just give them all the optoin to reshoot

RO - Sounds good to me - which rule is that

RM - Rule 1.4.5.3.6.32.5 - its the one that says I can make up anything I want

RO - Perfect

You make some valid points, and when you promote or RM a major match I trust you will handle it differently. If you were shooting limited nats, I trust you will protest the alleged actions. I'm ok with that.

I wasn't working that stage and don't know the skinny, but having worked with experienced rangemasters, I feel pretty confident that they used their experience and judgement in the way that worked best for all parties concerned and for the sport. I believe that an experienced rangemaster has the tools to be given a little more latitude on the rules than an RO or CRO. You can't anticipate every possible situation.

Yeah, as long as the person making the decision is sufficiently high up in the organization they should be able to make up the rules as they go.

Don't like it? go to RM school and run it your way.

How does that make any sense? You're saying if someone goes to RM school then they get latitude with how they apply the rules? You don't see this as a problem?

What I'm saying is if you feel it was unfair and affected your results, speak up. Protest. Arbitrate. Lay out the details of how you feel you were wronged, and let the system work. You might have a reasonable case. RM's aren't perfect by any means, but they also have a match to run, and I can see where it would be preferable to bend a rule slightly (while keeping with the spirit of the rule) rather than throw out a stage, or make several squads reshoot, delaying everyone several hours. Apparently they thought it would be fair, but if someone feels otherwise and that their results were unfairly affected, then they should speak up and explain how.

I don't think it makes sense to just whine in general, without the specific details of what was done and why it was unfair to shooter x. There is a HUGE difference for example between a popper that was set wrong so it sometimes takes 2 shots to drop it, vs a complicated array of clamshells that was set wrong, totally changing the presentation. If the popper fell on the first shot for you despite being set wrong, then I would say it didn't really affect you, and there wouldn't be much reason to re-shoot if you didn't have to. In that case, re-shooting might be an unfair disadvantage to the shooter.

But I'm just speculating. Why don't you lay out the details of what went wrong and why you think it was unfair, and who exactly had their results unfairly affected......

[outerlimits]

And that makes sense, but maybe then we should fix the rule book to allow for this.

Or not

Well I've ignored this for a couple of years, but did we have a rule book fight recently? Nothing gets the blood going like a good argument over new rule books.

Don't worry, it'll be posted in the meeting minutes somewhere between bathroom breaks.

[whitedog]

How does RM school or who it affected apply to the fact that the only time a reshoot is offered is RO interference? In all other cases its mandatory? What other rules will be adhered on a case by case basis?

I was not there. I do not have first hand knowledge. That being said, if the statements on the reshoot are true , what happened is a direct violation of a printed black and white rule.

[motosapiens]

How does RM school or who it affected apply to the fact that the only time a reshoot is offered is RO interference? In all other cases its mandatory? What other rules will be adhered on a case by case basis?

I was not there. I do not have first hand knowledge. That being said, if the statements on the reshoot are true , what happened is a direct violation of a printed black and white rule.

I've only worked 3 big matches, but I can assure you that rules get adhered to on a case-by-case basis all the time. Many things happen that aren't covered by the rulebook, or fall into gray areas, and imho the volunteer staff and the RM's do their best to adhere to the spirit of the rulebook and to sporting fairness when making judgement calls.

But again, I don't know the details of this situation. If you do, please spell out exactly what happened and what your issues are. I would value and appreciate the education

Edited September 28, 2013 by motosapiens

[Jaxshooter]

It does not matter if it is this specific stage at the Nationals or a stage at any sanctioned USPSA shoot, the whole point is we have a rule book that states the rules in black and white. It does not contain any clause that the rule can be changed to what this or that RM wants to do. Follow the rules to the letter or change them.

[Sarge]

Here is what gets me about this situation. If I had done this at my local match I would have never heard the end of it. This forum would have been lit up with the usual, " no such thing as making up rules as you go", "level I matches should be the same as Nationals", "BLAH, BLAH, BLAH". But when it is Nationals, I am surprised at the number of folks who are trying their hardest to make it sound legit.

Sorry, but I can no longer run my matches the same as Nationals. I think I'll stick to the rule book.

[Vlad]

Oh, I don't know, now I can just make up whatever rules I want at my match. If anyone asks, I'll point at the nationals.

PS: Next match at CJ, everyone must wear top hats and pink umbrellas. However, you can choose to reshoot if the pink umbrella gets in your way.

[JakeMartens]

It is done and over with and the only person that can answer the question to his ruling is the Range Master, and it appears that was Troy. Troy is pretty good at doing this, just happens to be busy at the moment.