HD Shotgun Choice

[Smitty79]

I will soon have a decent 24 " barrel Benelli 3 gun shotgun with almost all the trimmings. I will compete with it about once a month. I will probably practice with it a couple more times a month. Reload practice several times a week. Does the extra length of this gun over my current 18" pump gun make this a poor choice for an HD gun? I do practice with the pump. But no where near as much as with the Benelli.

[thegunnerd]

I don't think the length is necessarily the issue. I guess it depends on your home and how tight the confines are . 18" would def be easier to get around with. A pump is certainly more fool proof and less likely to hiccup when you really need it. But it's what you're more comfortable using that is the best choice . Neither is a bad choice. But the 18" may be easier to move around with . Throw some bird shot in there and you're good to go

Edited September 15, 2013 by thegunnerd

[Youngeyes]

IMHO there is no better HD shotgun choice than a short barrel pump with a strong light. Save the Benelli for other fun. OK Mods, your turn.

[wideerhunter]

I don't think the length is necessarily the issue. I guess it depends on your home and how tight the confines are . 18" would def be easier to get around with. A pump is certainly more fool proof and less likely to hiccup when you really need it. But it's what you're more comfortable using that is the best choice . Neither is a bad choice. But the 18" may be easier to move around with . Throw some bird shot in there and you're good to go

Seeing the newbies that bring their 18" pumps to local matches, I have to disagree on the "less likely to hiccup" part. Between the short strokes while under the clock stress and shells catching on the chamber lip, my confidence in the pump has decreased greatly! Plus they go dry so darn quick!

I stick with my tried and true AK for HD.

Regardless of what rifle/shotgun you choose, make sure you have a quality light on it...monsters under the bed only come out after dark!

[Sgtsvi]

There is also no need to spend a lot of money on a HD shotgun. I never understood why someone would spend $1500 on a WC 870 so it can sit in the corner of the bedroom and rarely travel to the range. Most HD shotguns will have less than 500 rounds fired in their lifetime so I would just buy a Mossberg or police trade in 870 and mount a light to it.

[ambluemax]

Shotgun is the strongest part of my 3gun game and my last choice for HD. I think a good number of people who truely understand shotgunning, loads, ammo management, and patterning would agree

[thegunnerd]

I don't think the length is necessarily the issue. I guess it depends on your home and how tight the confines are . 18" would def be easier to get around with. A pump is certainly more fool proof and less likely to hiccup when you really need it. But it's what you're more comfortable using that is the best choice . Neither is a bad choice. But the 18" may be easier to move around with . Throw some bird shot in there and you're good to go

Seeing the newbies that bring their 18" pumps to local matches, I have to disagree on the "less likely to hiccup" part. Between the short strokes while under the clock stress and shells catching on the chamber lip, my confidence in the pump has decreased greatly! Plus they go dry so darn quick!

I stick with my tried and true AK for HD.

Regardless of what rifle/shotgun you choose, make sure you have a quality light on it...monsters under the bed only come out after dark!

I'm gonna chalk a lot of that up to user error . Short stroking isn't the shotgun's fault. Really i'm talking more about less moving parts = less to fail. Training of course makes the difference.

As for using an AK for home defense, i've got nothing against that at all as long as you use the right ammo . Standard FMJ AK ammo can and will go right through walls, and houses for that matter. That's the only reason i'm not using my AR for home defense because i don't have any decent hollow point rounds.

[EkuJustice]

Actually buckshot and pistol rounds penetrate more than an AR will. I have no problem using a shotgun though for the home and a 18 or 24 inch wouldn't matter much

[Therealkoop]

Shotgun is the strongest part of my 3gun game and my last choice for HD. I think a good number of people who truely understand shotgunning, loads, ammo management, and patterning would agree

100% agreement here.

Also I find that pumps are less reliable than auto's when it comes to stressful situations. Yes its user error, but that doesnt really matter when it comes down to it, the point is that it isnt working.

[SouthernGunsLLC]

Shotgun is the strongest part of my 3gun game and my last choice for HD. I think a good number of people who truely understand shotgunning, loads, ammo management, and patterning would agree

While not the strongest part of my game, I do agree that it is a poor HD choice.

A full size 9mm handgun would suit most people much better.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2

[Alaskapopo]

IMHO there is no better HD shotgun choice than a short barrel pump with a strong light. Save the Benelli for other fun. OK Mods, your turn.

A short barrel benelli with a light is better yet. I run an Vang 870 at work and its a good gun but if I did not have to deal with less lethal loads I would not bother with a pump at all.

Just hosted a match with a friend last weekend and a new 870 had its ejector come off causing the gun to have to be taken out of the match. I will say one thing if you want a pump these days get a Nova the new 870's are garbage. They are not made like they used to be.

Pat

Edited September 17, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[GreenDragon64]

Make sure the flashlight has a strobe setting. Just a constant beam has a lot of backsplash and will show your outline. Strobe at night hurts the eyes. You can try it out by having another person take the flashlight and use both settings on you at night and see what is effective.

[lumberjack149]

Also I find that pumps are less reliable than auto's when it comes to stressful situations. Yes its user error, but that doesnt really matter when it comes down to it, the point is that it isnt working.

+1 on this. I mostly shoot pumps and my HD gun is a pump but you need to put some time in on them to eliminate operator error under stress. As far as autos, its hard to beat a good auto with quality ammo for reliability.

[birdzman]

+1 on this. I mostly shoot pumps and my HD gun is a pump but you need to put some time in on them to eliminate operator error under stress. As far as autos, its hard to beat a good auto with quality ammo for reliability.

I have to agree, you need to put a lot of time into becoming proficient with a pump. A home invasion is a circumstance you can't really simulate and know how you will react with 100% certainty, my choice in a shotgun is a quality auto.

Edited September 17, 2013 by birdzman

[rtp]

Actually buckshot and pistol rounds penetrate more than an AR will. I have no problem using a shotgun though for the home and a 18 or 24 inch wouldn't matter much

This (first sentence). My go to remains a pistol, but that may change in time.

I agree that stress + pump guns may not be the best combination, especially if someone doesn't really train with one so it's second nature. Of course, that one shot may well be 'enough,' but if not and someone short cycles...I've slowly come over to choosing an autoloader for HD purposes.

Someone mentioned a strobe light - 100% agreement there. Whether hand-held or weapon mounted, have your significant other walk around the house with a flashlight in normal mode, and see what you think, 'if you were the bad guy.' Could you readily locate and see well in advance with reasonable accuracy where she/he was? Now have them blast you with a good strobe.

Someone's surely going to chime in about the proper way of using a 'solid beam' light, but current strobe lights are pretty amazing, and let's face it - people are going to be stressed if something goes bang/boom in the night - how many might throw their weapon mounted light on, find a reasonably decent position, and that's it, leaving the light on? What if you have to move to grab a child? Until someone definitely proves otherwise, all lights I buy have a strobe on them, just amazing, IMO.

Shotgun length - this one's tougher. We can say 'ideally' you hear a crash or noise, you arm yourself and wife, and have no kids to move you around the house. You have your wife or SO call 911, or do it yourself if necessary. Assuming 'bad guy' is 'cooperative' and runs out of the house screaming if you decide to 'announce you're armed, verbally or by racking the slide or charging handle, or if not, BG walks into your field of view from your covered position, is barrel length going to matter? Probably not.

The second you may have to move outside of the room, try doing a 180* inside your hallway with a 22" shotgun, overall length ~42" give or take. Average hallway width = 36". Average AR length is ~32" or so. My bullpup is 26".

I may well be revising my own game plan once/if I can get my wife comfortable on the shotgun. I grab the pistol or (bull pup) rifle, she grabs the shotgun, both position accordingly, strobe lights on each of us, mounted on shotgun, in hand for me w/pistol, or mounted w/rifle. She heads into master bathroom to make 911 call if necessary, armed. Lights remain off. Once call is placed, she has cover behind a heavy wood dresser, and stays in place, but has coverage of the door.

That's about as far as I get mentally at the moment. This is where lots of smart folks say stay in place, but I know I've gone out twice to date to investigate noises, one seemingly inside the house, and a second sounding like a fallen tree in the middle of the night outside.

Edited September 17, 2013 by rtp

[GreenDragon64]

One more thing to add. If you can find a slim weapon mounted light, mount in the 12 o'clock position if able. Cornering with the light on the side you're pie-ing and it might get hung up. Same for 6 o'clock position if you come up over cover, think a kitchen island or bar, couch, bed, etc.

Edit: a state trooper buddy uses either a strobe capable Surefire or StreamLight pistol light mounted at 12 o'clock and has had to use it in drug raids.

Edited September 17, 2013 by GreenDragon64

[MetropolisLake]

I originally got my FN Herstal SLP for HD but decided against it. I would recommend trying to navigate your house in the dark with your shotgun to decide if it's right for you. Maybe it's doable for pros with their buddies but I did not like it as an average user being alone. Navigating tight areas such as going into a doorway and immediately covering what is to your sides is awkward. Actually just opening the doors alone is bad enough. When you have a long tube full of shells and no pistol grip, it is very hard to keep the gun pointed in the right direction if you use your weak hand to open a door and/or turn on a light. A pistol is easier and much more effective.

Also I really don't like that your only light has to be attached to your gun when using a shotgun. I had an incident where somebody was sneaking into my house in the middle of the night. I was working on my jeep and took a break to watch Jay Leno. I happen to look over and my door knob is turning very slowly, then the door started opening very slowly. Here I am trying to sneak to the closet door to grab the shotgun, and I see that it was a 2 year old girl. I was renting a mobile home on my property, a small family was living there, and she got out without them knowing and wanted to come visit. Target identification has been top priority for me ever since. I cannot stand the thought of the idea that if the lights were off and I had my shotgun, the only way I could identify this girl would be to point a loaded gun at her. I'm just not going to do that. This alone is reason enough for me to only have a 1911 and a separate flashlight.

Massad Ayoob touched on this exact problem in an article of his, under the "Caveat" section. I for one believe it to be a very real problem that is irresponsible to ignore because it just about happened to me.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob128.html

Edited September 17, 2013 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Alaskapopo]

Make sure the flashlight has a strobe setting. Just a constant beam has a lot of backsplash and will show your outline. Strobe at night hurts the eyes. You can try it out by having another person take the flashlight and use both settings on you at night and see what is effective.

I don't like strobes. Yes they disorient the bad guy but they do the same to you. I find they are a gimmack and they seem to be falling out of favor. Just illuminate then turn it off and move, then illuminate then turn it off and move. That said if something goes bump in the night and I have time to get to my long guns, I will be grabbing my patrol rifle not my shotgun.

Pat

Edited September 17, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[Smitty79]

So think the answer is the SBE. If I need to move, I have pistols. Shotgun is barricade gun.

[Alaskapopo]

I originally got my FN Herstal SLP for HD but decided against it. I would recommend trying to navigate your house in the dark with your shotgun to decide if it's right for you. Maybe it's doable for pros with their buddies but I did not like it as an average user being alone. Navigating tight areas such as going into a doorway and immediately covering what is to your sides is awkward. Actually just opening the doors alone is bad enough. When you have a long tube full of shells and no pistol grip, it is very hard to keep the gun pointed in the right direction if you use your weak hand to open a door and/or turn on a light. A pistol is easier and much more effective.

Also I really don't like that your only light has to be attached to your gun when using a shotgun. I had an incident where somebody was sneaking into my house in the middle of the night. I was working on my jeep and took a break to watch Jay Leno. I happen to look over and my door knob is turning very slowly, then the door started opening very slowly. Here I am trying to sneak to the closet door to grab the shotgun, and I see that it was a 2 year old girl. I was renting a mobile home on my property, a small family was living there, and she got out without them knowing and wanted to come visit. Target identification has been top priority for me ever since. I cannot stand the thought of the idea that if the lights were off and I had my shotgun, the only way I could identify this girl would be to point a loaded gun at her. I'm just not going to do that. This alone is reason enough for me to only have a 1911 and a separate flashlight.

Massad Ayoob touched on this exact problem in an article of his, under the "Caveat" section. I for one believe it to be a very real problem that is irresponsible to ignore because it just about happened to me.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob128.html

1. Why are you running around playing one man SWAT team in your house. You should call the police and barricade yourself in your room with your long gun pointed at the door.

2. Its really not that hard to manuver around and open doors with a long gun. Pistols are for fighting only when you were not prepared enough to have a long gun with you.

[rtp]

Make sure the flashlight has a strobe setting. Just a constant beam has a lot of backsplash and will show your outline. Strobe at night hurts the eyes. You can try it out by having another person take the flashlight and use both settings on you at night and see what is effective.

I don't like strobes. Yes they disorient the bad guy but they do the same to you. I find they are a gimmack and they seem to be falling out of favor. Just illuminate then turn it off and move, then illuminate then turn it off and move. That said if something goes bump in the night and I have time to get to my long guns, I will be grabbing my patrol rifle not my shotgun.

Pat

Interesting, thanks for the feedback. I can see the logic here assuming, for example, a team (cops, SWAT, ...) is entering some space (home, warehouse, apartment building)..as you said, flash and move.

Assuming 1 (homeowner) or 2 (husband/wife), they aren't generally going to be moving very much, more like bunkering in, and I could see a strobe being an advantage for the initial disorientation period if/when the 'bad guy' comes into view, at which point, you've got identification and you're at 'shoot or don't shoot' time.

Thoughts?

I originally got my FN Herstal SLP for HD but decided against it. I would recommend trying to navigate your house in the dark with your shotgun to decide if it's right for you. Maybe it's doable for pros with their buddies but I did not like it as an average user being alone. Navigating tight areas such as going into a doorway and immediately covering what is to your sides is awkward. Actually just opening the doors alone is bad enough. When you have a long tube full of shells and no pistol grip, it is very hard to keep the gun pointed in the right direction if you use your weak hand to open a door and/or turn on a light. A pistol is easier and much more effective.

Also I really don't like that your only light has to be attached to your gun when using a shotgun. I had an incident where somebody was sneaking into my house in the middle of the night. I was working on my jeep and took a break to watch Jay Leno. I happen to look over and my door knob is turning very slowly, then the door started opening very slowly. Here I am trying to sneak to the closet door to grab the shotgun, and I see that it was a 2 year old girl. I was renting a mobile home on my property, a small family was living there, and she got out without them knowing and wanted to come visit. Target identification has been top priority for me ever since. I cannot stand the thought of the idea that if the lights were off and I had my shotgun, the only way I could identify this girl would be to point a loaded gun at her. I'm just not going to do that. This alone is reason enough for me to only have a 1911 and a separate flashlight.

Massad Ayoob touched on this exact problem in an article of his, under the "Caveat" section. I for one believe it to be a very real problem that is irresponsible to ignore because it just about happened to me.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob128.html

1. Why are you running around playing one man SWAT team in your house. You should call the police and barricade yourself in your room with your long gun pointed at the door.

2. Its really not that hard to manuver around and open doors with a long gun. Pistols are for fighting only when you were not prepared enough to have a long gun with you.

Don't think #1 is a fair assessment in this case. There is no law to retreat in most states within your home. I agree that you shouldn't be 'clearing rooms' by any means, but given the situation of a clear view to the front door and seeing the doorknob turning, I don't see retreating to a corner of the house to let the 'bad guys' enter the house as an ideal option, vs grabbing weapon and positioning yourself well in relationship to the entry point.

???

[MetropolisLake]

1. Why are you running around playing one man SWAT team in your house. You should call the police and barricade yourself in your room with your long gun pointed at the door.

2. Its really not that hard to manuver around and open doors with a long gun. Pistols are for fighting only when you were not prepared enough to have a long gun with you.

You must be single. Have you ever heard of a thing called kids? If I wake up in the middle of the night to the sound of my daughter screaming as if she's being attacked in her bedroom, or the alarm goes off, or I hear a window being broken out, is your advice really to barricade myself in my bedroom and wait 20 minutes for the cops to appear and let the kids fend for themselves on the other wing of the house?

All I tried to do is see if I could efficiently and safely make it to the kids bedroom area with my shotgun and I didn't like the results. 5 turns, two hallways, one staircase, and a 43" long gun that was extremely nose heavy while turning on lights and opening doors, yet had to be pointed where ever you want your flashlight to light up. It wasn't cool. Compare that to having a flashlight in one hand and a pistol pointed in a safe direction in the other. World of difference.

And yes my new house has a much better floor plan.

You say "long gun" in a general sense but that usually covers carbines too. There's a big difference between a typical AR with a collapsed stock that's 30.5" long, has a pistol grip, and a light front end, and a 43" very nose heavy shotgun with a traditional grip. And that's with a 22" barrel and 8 shot tube. A typical competition rig that many guys around here run would be even worse.

Edited September 18, 2013 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Alaskapopo]

Make sure the flashlight has a strobe setting. Just a constant beam has a lot of backsplash and will show your outline. Strobe at night hurts the eyes. You can try it out by having another person take the flashlight and use both settings on you at night and see what is effective.

I don't like strobes. Yes they disorient the bad guy but they do the same to you. I find they are a gimmack and they seem to be falling out of favor. Just illuminate then turn it off and move, then illuminate then turn it off and move. That said if something goes bump in the night and I have time to get to my long guns, I will be grabbing my patrol rifle not my shotgun.

Pat

Interesting, thanks for the feedback. I can see the logic here assuming, for example, a team (cops, SWAT, ...) is entering some space (home, warehouse, apartment building)..as you said, flash and move.

Assuming 1 (homeowner) or 2 (husband/wife), they aren't generally going to be moving very much, more like bunkering in, and I could see a strobe being an advantage for the initial disorientation period if/when the 'bad guy' comes into view, at which point, you've got identification and you're at 'shoot or don't shoot' time.

Thoughts?

I originally got my FN Herstal SLP for HD but decided against it. I would recommend trying to navigate your house in the dark with your shotgun to decide if it's right for you. Maybe it's doable for pros with their buddies but I did not like it as an average user being alone. Navigating tight areas such as going into a doorway and immediately covering what is to your sides is awkward. Actually just opening the doors alone is bad enough. When you have a long tube full of shells and no pistol grip, it is very hard to keep the gun pointed in the right direction if you use your weak hand to open a door and/or turn on a light. A pistol is easier and much more effective.

Also I really don't like that your only light has to be attached to your gun when using a shotgun. I had an incident where somebody was sneaking into my house in the middle of the night. I was working on my jeep and took a break to watch Jay Leno. I happen to look over and my door knob is turning very slowly, then the door started opening very slowly. Here I am trying to sneak to the closet door to grab the shotgun, and I see that it was a 2 year old girl. I was renting a mobile home on my property, a small family was living there, and she got out without them knowing and wanted to come visit. Target identification has been top priority for me ever since. I cannot stand the thought of the idea that if the lights were off and I had my shotgun, the only way I could identify this girl would be to point a loaded gun at her. I'm just not going to do that. This alone is reason enough for me to only have a 1911 and a separate flashlight.

Massad Ayoob touched on this exact problem in an article of his, under the "Caveat" section. I for one believe it to be a very real problem that is irresponsible to ignore because it just about happened to me.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob128.html

1. Why are you running around playing one man SWAT team in your house. You should call the police and barricade yourself in your room with your long gun pointed at the door.

2. Its really not that hard to manuver around and open doors with a long gun. Pistols are for fighting only when you were not prepared enough to have a long gun with you.

Don't think #1 is a fair assessment in this case. There is no law to retreat in most states within your home. I agree that you shouldn't be 'clearing rooms' by any means, but given the situation of a clear view to the front door and seeing the doorknob turning, I don't see retreating to a corner of the house to let the 'bad guys' enter the house as an ideal option, vs grabbing weapon and positioning yourself well in relationship to the entry point.

???

I was not talking about politics of a no retreat law rather sound tactics. Let them come to you and you have the advantage. If you have kids you have to do what you have to do. Either way its good to have a family plan and stick with it.

[Alaskapopo]

On strobes they will affect you just as much as the bad guy. I don't care for them. Tried them in some force on force training and I feel they do more harm than good.

On the barrel length I am used to running 14.5 and 18 inch shotguns and I have not tried it with my 24 inch Benelli. Will have to give that a go during training.

Pat

Edited September 18, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[jkrispies]

I'm going through the same debate (well, was-- I figured it out) and stumbled on this thread by happenstance.

Big +1 on semi vs. pump for HD... or anything. I'm actually in the process of switching over from pump to auto. Yes, when a pump jams, it's the fault of the stressed operator and not the gun, but that doesn't change the fact that when a shotgun jams on a short stroke, it doesn't clear like a pistol than can simply be racked back into operation-- that jammed pump becomes a bat at best. Modern QUALITY semi's are more reliable no matter the stress level of the operator, IMHO.

Regarding barrel length, somebody else hit it on the head when they said to experiment within your own confines. I currently have an 18" pump that I'll be selling pretty soon. I ran a couple simulations down my hallway (the only real tight spot in my house) with the current 18" and decided that an extra 3" wouldn't make a bit of difference when pieing corners, so I'm going for a 21" M2 with a +5 extension (for 8 total, just like my 1911 that I can round count in my subconscious). I'm guessing that a 24" would be fine in my hallway too, but it would be a little too tight for my comfort. YMMV.

Finally, bear in mind that you can go to the Benelli website and purchase an extra 18" M2 barrel for $400... about the price of a 2nd pump shotgun. And they're not hard to swap. Just sayin'.

My choice: I'm buying a Benelli 21" M2 eventually (hopefully sooner rather than later) and planning to sell my current pump since I'll put all my trigger time into the semi auto after that point. I'll then take the funds from the pump sale and possibly purchase a 2nd barrel more suited to trap and bird hunting. This way I will have one shotgun that I'll know like the back of mind and can use in a variety of situations.