Activating target when steel doesn't fall

[wurm]

Last month I shot a match where I had a situation that on further reflection I'm not so sure about. I shot a pepper popper which activated a max trap. I engaged the max trap with two rounds and then left the position to finish the rest of the stage. When everything was done, it turns out the pepper popper was still standing. I edge hit it but it activated the max trap. I was given a mike on the pepper popper.

Talking to some guys this weekend however they weren't so sure the mike was the correct call. I've always felt my knowledge is a bit weak of the USPSA rules so I did some reading. Would this have been a Range Equipment Failure?

4.6.1
Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all
competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of
paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the
failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of
mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of
props such as openings, ports, and barriers.

Premature activation of a moving target? Since the target wasn't supposed to activate until the popper fell it seems like it would be premature? Am I off base here?

[High Lord Gomer]

You could have called for calibration on the pepper popper.

(Editted to add references)

4.3.1.5

Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score.
Scoring Poppers which fail to fall when hit, are subject to the
provisions of Appendix C1, 6 & 7. Scoring metal targets which
a Range Officer deems have fallen or overturned due to a shot
on the supporting apparatus or prematurely fallen or moved for
any reason will be treated as range equipment failure. (See Rule
4.6.1)

From Appendix C1

6. If, during a course of fire, a popper does not fall when hit, a competitor has
three alternatives:
a. The popper is shot again until it falls. In this case, no further action is
required and the course of fire is scored “as shot”.
b. The popper is left standing but the competitor does not challenge the
calibration. In this case, no further action is required and the course of
fire is scored “as shot”, with the subject popper scored as a miss.
c. The popper is left standing and the competitor challenges the calibration.
In this case, the popper and the surrounding area on which it
stands must not be touched or interfered with by any person. If a
Match Official violates this rule, the competitor must reshoot the
course of fire. If the competitor or any other person violates this rule,
the popper will be scored as a miss and the rest of the course of fire
will be scored “as shot”. If the popper falls for any non-interference
reason (e.g. wind action), before it can be calibrated, Section 4.6 will
apply and a reshoot must be ordered.
7. In the absence of any interference, or problem with a target mechanism, a
calibration officer must conduct a calibration test of the subject popper
(when required under 6c above), from as near as possible to the point from
where the competitor shot the popper. The following will apply:
a. If the first shot by the calibration officer hits on or below the calibration
zone and the popper falls, the popper is deemed to be properly calibrated,
and it will be scored as a miss.
b. If the first shot fired by the calibration officer hits the popper anywhere
on its frontal surface and the popper does not fall, the calibration test
is deemed to have failed and the competitor must be ordered to reshoot
the course of fire, once the popper has been recalibrated.
c. If the first shot fired by the calibration officer hits above the calibration
zone, the calibration test is deemed to have failed and the competitor
must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire once the Popper
has been recalibrated.
d. If the first shot fired by the calibration officer misses the popper altogether,
another shot must be fired until one of 7a. 7b or 7c occurs.

Edited August 19, 2013 by High Lord Gomer

[motosapiens]

That is a curious situation. My first thought would be that if the maxtrap activated, but the popper didn't fall, then there may be a setup problem where the cable is adding additional tension to the popper. Absent a better explanation, I would call it REF and and reshoot. I would probably also see about adding an inch of slack in the cable.

Regardless of the popper calibration, it seems to me that if an activator activates but doesn't fall, then it has activated prematurely.

Edited August 19, 2013 by motosapiens

[wurm]

You could have called for calibration on the pepper popper.

It was a barely on it edge hit so I didn't bother. I'm pretty darned sure it would have fallen had it been hit properly. Nobody else had a problem with it all day long from what I gather. In my eyes, I deserved the mike on the pepper popper. I'm more curious about the activator being triggered without the steel going down. I got a lot of shoulder shrugs and "I don't know" kinds of looks from other shooters.

[GuildSF4]

A miss is the correct call on the popper.

The cable tension determines when the popper activates the max trap. It could activate way before the popper falls dependent on the setup.

(Did not see the setup, so that is about all I can say.)

[Jcj81]

It should have been a range failure and a reshoot the popper was an activation device which I would deem did not work properly. Even though it did activate I would assume to much tension and stopped the fall.

[MGMorden]

Tough call - IMHO the fact that the popper didn't fall is tangential to the main issue: the prop activated prematurely. If it was just the popper then you could call for a calibration check, but IMHO the fact that the activator went off before it was supposed to would be REF and necessitate a reshoot.

[EkuJustice]

I will agree with ref as the activator did not work correctly and activated without the popper going down.

[mactiger]

You are all thinking that the popper had to be down to have activated the max trap. Moving targets can be set to activate at any point the activating mechanism's movement, so this one could have been set to pop really early. If the original shot rocked the popper enough to trip the max trap at the point it was set to trip, it's not activated prematurely--it's activated, period.

A miss is the appropriate call on the popper.

Troy

[motosapiens]

You are all thinking that the popper had to be down to have activated the max trap. Moving targets can be set to activate at any point the activating mechanism's movement, so this one could have been set to pop really early. If the original shot rocked the popper enough to trip the max trap at the point it was set to trip, it's not activated prematurely--it's activated, period.

A miss is the appropriate call on the popper.

Troy

Thanks for that explanation. If the shooter called for calibration tho, I presume you would not be able to reset the maxtrap?

[bofe954]

Ran into this recently, but the shooter had shot the popper where the cable attached. We assumed that it should not have activated the prop, but did. So REF...Would you still call that a miss Troy?

[Yagi]

Because the pepper popper is still standing. IMHO.. it is considered a miss. Steel must fall...

[kmca]

Would there be a difference if the course description said "popper X activates max trap"? The shooter is using the trap as an indicator that the steel fell?

[remoandiris]

The popper DID activate the max trap, the popper just didn't fall. 2 separate issues. If the WSB said the popper has to fall to activate the max trap, but the max trap activated without the popper falling, that is a REF.

[kmca]

The popper DID activate the max trap, the popper just didn't fall. 2 separate issues. If the WSB said the popper has to fall to activate the max trap, but the max trap activated without the popper falling, that is a REF.

I realize if the WSB said "it has to fall to activate", I'm just going by the typical WSB in my area that just says "popper activates trap".

[Carmoney]

It should have been a range failure and a reshoot the popper was an activation device which I would deem did not work properly. Even though it did activate I would assume to much tension and stopped the fall.

I have seen this happen several times where an activator cable attached to the popper had too much tension. If there is any possibility this is what happened, I think it's obviously an REF. Furthermore, resetting the apparatus is usually going to involve moving or jostling the popper, which would seem to preclude a valid calibration test.

I also think it's potentially unfair to the shooter who sees/hears the equipment activate, and relying upon that feedback moves on through the stage, not realizing the steel is still standing.

Every time I have witnessed this at a match, the shooter was directed to reshoot the stage, and nobody ever questioned the call.

[Poppa Bear]

Ran into that today. Shooter hit the D-Link that attached the chain/cable to the swinger. The swinger activated without the popper going down because of the low hit and the linkage taking a direct hit. End call was REF and a reshoot.

[frag316]

You are all thinking that the popper had to be down to have activated the max trap. Moving targets can be set to activate at any point the activating mechanism's movement, so this one could have been set to pop really early. If the original shot rocked the popper enough to trip the max trap at the point it was set to trip, it's not activated prematurely--it's activated, period.

A miss is the appropriate call on the popper.

Troy

Troy,

So then my question is how to determine when the popper is supposed to activate the prop. At a major, that's easy--the walkthrough takes care of that, because the CRO is required to ensure the stage is reset properly and demonstrates the activators and props. At a club match, assuming no one walks representatives from each squad through the stages, do you just assume it's supposed to work a certain way when you arrive at the stage and look at the setup and set the prop off during the walkthrough? Not challenging your opinion on this, just want to know how we should handle this from your perspective--I want to make sure I'm consistent.

[JAFO]

The rules don't mention anything specific about calibrating activating poppers vs non-activating, but App C1 does say:

7. In the absence of any interference, or problem with a target mechanism, a calibration officer must conduct a calibration test of the subject popper (when required under 6c above), from as near as possible to the point from where the competitor shot the popper.

I would think a max trap with that much tension on the cable would be considered a problem with the target mechanism. And the popper would not have the same falling resistance after the max trap was activated as it did before it was engaged.

[Nik Habicht]

You are all thinking that the popper had to be down to have activated the max trap. Moving targets can be set to activate at any point the activating mechanism's movement, so this one could have been set to pop really early. If the original shot rocked the popper enough to trip the max trap at the point it was set to trip, it's not activated prematurely--it's activated, period.

A miss is the appropriate call on the popper.

Troy

Troy,

So then my question is how to determine when the popper is supposed to activate the prop. At a major, that's easy--the walkthrough takes care of that, because the CRO is required to ensure the stage is reset properly and demonstrates the activators and props. At a club match, assuming no one walks representatives from each squad through the stages, do you just assume it's supposed to work a certain way when you arrive at the stage and look at the setup and set the prop off during the walkthrough? Not challenging your opinion on this, just want to know how we should handle this from your perspective--I want to make sure I'm consistent.

We generally solve that with a squad to squad hand-off. In other words, either the MD or the stage designer demonstrates the reset to the ROs in the first squad -- as well as all interested squad members; and then they in turn pass the info on to the next squad.....

Add color coding of barge sticks and their placement on the ground/prop and you're most of the way to repeatable reset......