start position and the safety position

[outerlimits]

Cuz chuck sez so.

[StealthyBlagga]

It is settled law in the practical shooting sports that the "start position" is assumed when the competitor is ready, and it is maintained until the beep. The start position/condition is intended to create competitive equity - to make sure everyone is in the same position at the beep. If you want a "real world" rationale, you are standing with the rifle at the ready (safety on - like you would carry it), and the beep signals the appearance of a threat which causes you to react. Flipping the safety off before the beep is the same as dropping your wrists below your shoulders on a surrender start pistol stage... the RO would either re-start you or penalize you for creeping. Flipping off the safety surreptitiously before the beep is cheating.

Edited August 14, 2013 by StealthyBlagga

[Jesse Tischauser]

It is settled law in the practical shooting sports that the "start position" is assumed when the competitor is ready, and it is maintained until the beep. The start position/condition is intended to create competitive equity - to make sure everyone is in the same position at the beep. If you want a "real world" rationale, you are standing with the rifle at the ready (safety on - like you would carry it), and the beep signals the appearance of a threat which causes you to react. Flipping the safety off before the beep is the same as dropping your wrists below your shoulders on a surrender start pistol stage... the RO would either re-start you or penalize you for creeping. Flipping off the safety surreptitiously before the beep is cheating.

I figured maybe there was some history of dropping guns whole waiting for the beep or something. If everyone started with the gun in hand off safe it would be similar for everyone too. From a real world perspective if I'm anticipating a threat or a bird or a deer I'm not standing still with the safety on either.

So I guess there is no good reason then?

[Jesse Tischauser]

In rimfire steel challenge do they require safety on when starting at the low ready?

[outerlimits]

It is settled law in the practical shooting sports that the "start position" is assumed when the competitor is ready, and it is maintained until the beep. The start position/condition is intended to create competitive equity - to make sure everyone is in the same position at the beep. If you want a "real world" rationale, you are standing with the rifle at the ready (safety on - like you would carry it), and the beep signals the appearance of a threat which causes you to react. Flipping the safety off before the beep is the same as dropping your wrists below your shoulders on a surrender start pistol stage... the RO would either re-start you or penalize you for creeping. Flipping off the safety surreptitiously before the beep is cheating.

I figured maybe there was some history of dropping guns whole waiting for the beep or something. If everyone started with the gun in hand off safe it would be similar for everyone too. From a real world perspective if I'm anticipating a threat or a bird or a deer I'm not standing still with the safety on either.

So I guess there is no good reason then?

So Jesse, you wanna make it like back in the day when you left the wire, the safety was off?

[Jesse Tischauser]

So Jesse, you wanna make it like back in the day when you left the wire, the safety was off?

I like the way that sounds!

I'm not trying to change anything just wondering how and why we arrived at where we are today.

[Benelli Chick]

Apparently, most military people are trained to have the safety on when they're not shooting!

That's why when you get a new shooter from the military, you can hear the click as he/she puts on the safety between positions.

At the start, you're not on target, the military trains you that the safety should be on.

Since our sport came out of training, I'm sure that since they are trained to have safety on...that's where it came from.

[AustinT]

It is settled law in the practical shooting sports that the "start position" is assumed when the competitor is ready, and it is maintained until the beep. The start position/condition is intended to create competitive equity - to make sure everyone is in the same position at the beep. If you want a "real world" rationale, you are standing with the rifle at the ready (safety on - like you would carry it), and the beep signals the appearance of a threat which causes you to react.

People keep saying stuff like this...the only "settled law" is what's in the rule book or stage description. I start safety on with an AR regardless, but if the MD wants the safety on it needs to be specified.

[ziebart]

It just keeps things standard. Is it really that big of a deal to flick it off after the buzzer?

[AustinT]

If it's standard, then put it in the rule book or in the stage description. Then there's no question that it's standard.

[Jesse Tischauser]

It just keeps things standard. Is it really that big of a deal to flick it off after the buzzer?

It's not a BIG deal but obviously it's a deal or the OP wouldn't have asked. I know when I RO shooters ask frequently if the safety is on or off. I always played by the rule that its off until the beep but I've been RO'd both ways. If you look at the different shotgun platforms some are easier to take off safety then others. So it could be considered unfair or at least not the same for all shooters if the safety is required to be on at the beep.

[DocMedic]

In rimfire steel challenge do they require safety on when starting at the low ready?

No but it is written that you need to keep your nose picking finger out of and off the trigger/trigger well.

I just glanced through several 3Gun rule books and not once did I see it written that your finger must be outside of the trigger guard in the low ready postion.

Even USPSA Mutli-gun Rule book does not address where your finger is at with a "low ready start" but I did find this tidbit

3.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement (see Appendix A3)

must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged.

3.5.1.1 Taking more than one step in any direction.

3.5.1.2 Changing shooting stance (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.) while not

engaging targets.

So in USPSA multi-gun the safety should be engaged every-time you make movement ( movement is defined by example of 3.5.1) but low ready doesn't qualify as a movement. UNTIL you change position, e.g. going to prone. And apparently is DQ'able

Edited August 14, 2013 by DocMedic

[mpeltier]

The next question is why do we force competitors to remove the safety after the beep on long guns? Pistols it's common sense but long guns that are in our hands it seems kinda pointless doesn't it?

I couldn't agree more. And really it's no advantage one way or another....unless you forget to flip it to fire....that's always good for a chuckle (and a few extra seconds).

[mpeltier]

In rimfire steel challenge do they require safety on when starting at the low ready?

No but it is written that you need to keep your nose picking finger out of and off the trigger/trigger well.

I just glanced through several 3Gun rule books and not once did I see it written that your finger must be outside of the trigger guard in the low ready postion.

Even USPSA Mutli-gun Rule book does not address where your finger is at with a "low ready start" but I did find this tidbit

3.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement (see Appendix A3)

must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged.

3.5.1.1 Taking more than one step in any direction.

3.5.1.2 Changing shooting stance (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.) while not

engaging targets.

So in USPSA multi-gun the safety should be engaged every-time you make movement ( movement is defined by example of 3.5.1) but low ready doesn't qualify as a movement. UNTIL you change position, e.g. going to prone. And apparently is DQ'able

Can you clarify your last sentence for me? What is apparently DQ'able?

[ziebart]

Jesse you are right it is a deal because people do ask about it. My comments about keeping things standard was in reference to the pistol not other matches. The pistol safety is left on until after the buzzer so it would make sense to me that the rifle and shotgun would be the same. Valid arguments can be made for leaving it off because it is already in your hands and so it should be safe.

[kurtm]

Why have the safety on at all? Lets start every stage aimed in and ready to fire., heck lets just start the time on the first bang. That way we don't have to test weapons manipulation on the clock. Think of the money we would save on holsters and belts and slings!

Lets not have the safety on on the staged guns either, after all they are staged "expecting a threat or bird or something", and since we don't have to worry about safeties at the start, no one can ever be D.Q.ed for abandoning a firearm off safe ever again.

[StealthyBlagga]

It is settled law in the practical shooting sports that the "start position" is assumed when the competitor is ready, and it is maintained until the beep. The start position/condition is intended to create competitive equity - to make sure everyone is in the same position at the beep. If you want a "real world" rationale, you are standing with the rifle at the ready (safety on - like you would carry it), and the beep signals the appearance of a threat which causes you to react.

People keep saying stuff like this...the only "settled law" is what's in the rule book or stage description. I start safety on with an AR regardless, but if the MD wants the safety on it needs to be specified.

I stand by my original statement: It is well established ("settled law") for ALL practical shooting sports that the shooter must assume the start position to signify that he is ready, and that the same start position must be maintained until the beep. If you disagree, please explain why.

It is certainly the case that start positions vary. Sometimes there are specific start positions per the WSB (in which case it should be clearly written in the WSB). In the absence of such specific start positions, most rules have default start positions. If you care to read the rules for your match, I'm sure you will find them. Thus, there is no need for the MD to specify again (even though many will anyway).

If it's standard, then put it in the rule book or in the stage description. Then there's no question that it's standard.

It is in most rule books. For USPSA see 3.1 and 3.2.2. For IMA-SMM3G see rule 4.5. Most WSBs also spell it out.

Jesse you are right it is a deal because people do ask about it. My comments about keeping things standard was in reference to the pistol not other matches. The pistol safety is left on until after the buzzer so it would make sense to me that the rifle and shotgun would be the same. Valid arguments can be made for leaving it off because it is already in your hands and so it should be safe.

People keep asking about it like my kids ask me if they can have ice cream after Mom said no - because they want a competitive edge and hope the RO will give them a favorable answer. The rules for most matches are CRYSTAL CLEAR. Its just that some folks don't like them.

[StealthyBlagga]

I just glanced through several 3Gun rule books and not once did I see it written that your finger must be outside of the trigger guard in the low ready postion.

Even USPSA Mutli-gun Rule book does not address where your finger is at with a "low ready start" but I did find this tidbit

3.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement (see Appendix A3)

must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged.

3.5.1.1 Taking more than one step in any direction.

3.5.1.2 Changing shooting stance (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.) while not

engaging targets.

So in USPSA multi-gun the safety should be engaged every-time you make movement ( movement is defined by example of 3.5.1) but low ready doesn't qualify as a movement. UNTIL you change position, e.g. going to prone. And apparently is DQ'able

In USPSA rules "should" means it is recommended but not absolutely required, whereas "must" means you do it or you get penalized. See my emphasis above.

A lot if these kinds of details may not be found in outlaw 3-Gun rules. The reason is obvious - the rules were written to be simple, minimalist documents (maybe only 1/10 the number of pages of USPSA rules). They inherit many of the norms from USPSA (e.g. targets are inpenetrable, inward/upward scoring etc.) and participants are expected to bring this "tribal knowledge" with them to the match. If folks start insisting that EVERYTHING must be in the rules, then don't be surprised when outlaw rule books morph into 100-page monstrosities.

[Jesse Tischauser]

It is settled law in the practical shooting sports that the "start position" is assumed when the competitor is ready, and it is maintained until the beep. The start position/condition is intended to create competitive equity - to make sure everyone is in the same position at the beep. If you want a "real world" rationale, you are standing with the rifle at the ready (safety on - like you would carry it), and the beep signals the appearance of a threat which causes you to react.

People keep saying stuff like this...the only "settled law" is what's in the rule book or stage description. I start safety on with an AR regardless, but if the MD wants the safety on it needs to be specified.

I stand by my original statement: It is well established ("settled law") for ALL practical shooting sports that the shooter must assume the start position to signify that he is ready, and that the same start position must be maintained until the beep. If you disagree, please explain why.

It is certainly the case that start positions vary. Sometimes there are specific start positions per the WSB (in which case it should be clearly written in the WSB). In the absence of such specific start positions, most rules have default start positions. If you care to read the rules for your match, I'm sure you will find them. Thus, there is no need for the MD to specify again (even though many will anyway).

If it's standard, then put it in the rule book or in the stage description. Then there's no question that it's standard.

It is in most rule books. For USPSA see 3.1 and 3.2.2. For IMA-SMM3G see rule 4.5. Most WSBs also spell it out.

Jesse you are right it is a deal because people do ask about it. My comments about keeping things standard was in reference to the pistol not other matches. The pistol safety is left on until after the buzzer so it would make sense to me that the rifle and shotgun would be the same. Valid arguments can be made for leaving it off because it is already in your hands and so it should be safe.

People keep asking about it like my kids ask me if they can have ice cream after Mom said no - because they want a competitive edge and hope the RO will give them a favorable answer. The rules for most matches are CRYSTAL CLEAR. Its just that some folks don't like them.

The folks that ask me are the newbs not the gamers.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Why have the safety on at all? Lets start every stage aimed in and ready to fire., heck lets just start the time on the first bang. That way we don't have to test weapons manipulation on the clock. Think of the money we would save on holsters and belts and slings!

Lets not have the safety on on the staged guns either, after all they are staged "expecting a threat or bird or something", and since we don't have to worry about safeties at the start, no one can ever be D.Q.ed for abandoning a firearm off safe ever again.

That makes zero sense Kurt.

[High Lord Gomer]

I'm pretty sure Kurt was being sarcastic.

For consistency at our 3-gun matches all guns may have their magazines loaded but only the first gun to be shot may have one in the chamber. All long guns must have the safety on (until the beep) and pistol safeties are dealt with according to USPSA handgun rules 8.1.1 and 8.1.2.

I try to give people options and on some stages that includes which gun they start with. Starting with the shotgun does save you the time of loading that 1 extra shell you may have chambered.

[Mark R]

Why have the safety on at all? Lets start every stage aimed in and ready to fire., heck lets just start the time on the first bang. That way we don't have to test weapons manipulation on the clock. Think of the money we would save on holsters and belts and slings!

Lets not have the safety on on the staged guns either, after all they are staged "expecting a threat or bird or something", and since we don't have to worry about safeties at the start, no one can ever be D.Q.ed for abandoning a firearm off safe ever again.

That makes zero sense Kurt.

Jesse, I think Kurt was being facetious.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Kurt never kids!

[gng4life]

I'm pretty sure Kurt was being sarcastic.

For consistency at our 3-gun matches all guns may have their magazines loaded but only the first gun to be shot may have one in the chamber. All long guns must have the safety on (until the beep) and pistol safeties are dealt with according to USPSA handgun rules 8.1.1 and 8.1.2.

I try to give people options and on some stages that includes which gun they start with. Starting with the shotgun does save you the time of loading that 1 extra shell you may have chambered.

+1 on being sarcastic, but I thought Jesse was being sarcastic right back

I like this policy Gomer, can't wait to make it to one of your matches!

[StealthyBlagga]

The folks that ask me are the newbs not the gamers.

Are they newbies when it comes to reading English too?

As I hope I have explained, I think the default start conditions/positions are made abundantly clear in both USPSA and IMA-SMM3G rules. Now, if you disagree with the default start conditions/positions, that is a different discussion, but it's tough to claim they aren't clear.

If other match's rules are not so clear, then that's a discussion to have with the MD for that event.