IPSC World Shoot XVII, Florida 2014: FAQ

[Neomet]

I believe this was discussed over on the IPSC forum. Vince and the head of IPSC in Italy both said that the magazine drawn from any pocket behind the hip line was legal. Vince went to the extreme of explaining that Nils had told him personally that he drew the mag from a side pocket. A SIDE POCKET. Vince felt this was legal and after some further "no it isn't" shut down the thread. Long story short is call it a side pocket, call it a rear pocket, call it in the morning and say you love it but as long as it is behind the hip line that is all that matters. This is not a case of ROs missing the call, or Nils getting away with something. The governing body of the match feels it is legal. Done and done.

BBaron, the Aussies did a truly outstanding job at WS! I was lucky enough to shoot with Nick Kapor when he stopped in Phoenix on the way to WS. Not only a blazingly fast mountain of a man but super nice and friendly as the day is long. Glad to see him do so well.

[a matt]

yes, congratulations nils. ultimately (I hate to say this so much) I agree with bonglee that rear pocket means the pockets on your arse. BUT and it's a bit BUT (no pun intended) in this case it matters for nothing for a number of reasons.

1, he wasn't called on it which means either the RO didn't see, or felt it was within his view of the rules of what a 'rear' pocket is.

2. it has such little bearing on the outcome as to be meaningless. let's say he put a mag in his rear (bum) pocket and took that one instead. whould it make a difference? I doubt more than 0.1 or 0.2 of a second.

and the third and most important reason?

it's over. he won. he won by shooting the best balance between speed and accuracy. not by having magic pockets.

and being someone patriotic I have to say congratulations to the Australians who did well and there were a few but in particular for Brodie to achieve 3rd in open is a fantastic achievement. There is no such thing as a 'professional' shooter in my country. The top guys all have to have other full time jobs/careers to support their shooting. Australia also had top lady in open with Karla Blowers. well done.

Yup and this is about rules and not about personalities. Its a bump to open if the ro saw it

I guess it not a bump after all. Even if the RO saw it.

[bonglee0507]

I believe this was discussed over on the IPSC forum. Vince and the head of IPSC in Italy both said that the magazine drawn from any pocket behind the hip line was legal. Vince went to the extreme of explaining that Nils had told him personally that he drew the mag from a side pocket. A SIDE POCKET. Vince felt this was legal and after some further "no it isn't" shut down the thread. Long story short is call it a side pocket, call it a rear pocket, call it in the morning and say you love it but as long as it is behind the hip line that is all that matters. This is not a case of ROs missing the call, or Nils getting away with something. The governing body of the match feels it is legal. Done and done.

BBaron, the Aussies did a truly outstanding job at WS! I was lucky enough to shoot with Nick Kapor when he stopped in Phoenix on the way to WS. Not only a blazingly fast mountain of a man but super nice and friendly as the day is long. Glad to see him do so well.

Interesting. Just looked at my shooting shorts and pants now and all of their front pockets have openings exactly at the hip bone area. Hmmmm. That changes my defenition of rear pockets now

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[Neomet]

I believe this was discussed over on the IPSC forum. Vince and the head of IPSC in Italy both said that the magazine drawn from any pocket behind the hip line was legal. Vince went to the extreme of explaining that Nils had told him personally that he drew the mag from a side pocket. A SIDE POCKET. Vince felt this was legal and after some further "no it isn't" shut down the thread. Long story short is call it a side pocket, call it a rear pocket, call it in the morning and say you love it but as long as it is behind the hip line that is all that matters. This is not a case of ROs missing the call, or Nils getting away with something. The governing body of the match feels it is legal. Done and done.

BBaron, the Aussies did a truly outstanding job at WS! I was lucky enough to shoot with Nick Kapor when he stopped in Phoenix on the way to WS. Not only a blazingly fast mountain of a man but super nice and friendly as the day is long. Glad to see him do so well.

Interesting. Just looked at my shooting shorts and pants now and all of their front pockets have openings exactly at the hip bone area. Hmmmm. That changes my defenition of rear pockets now

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Wild eh? I would just be careful that the pocket below the opening doesnt move stuff including magazines past the hip bone. I have a pair that are exactly like that. Whatever I put in ends up on the front of my leg.

[bonglee0507]

Im reading the rules now and i still cant find the rule that states that as long as the pocket is behind or in line with the hip bone it is considered rear pocket.

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[bonglee0507]

I believe this was discussed over on the IPSC forum. Vince and the head of IPSC in Italy both said that the magazine drawn from any pocket behind the hip line was legal. Vince went to the extreme of explaining that Nils had told him personally that he drew the mag from a side pocket. A SIDE POCKET. Vince felt this was legal and after some further "no it isn't" shut down the thread. Long story short is call it a side pocket, call it a rear pocket, call it in the morning and say you love it but as long as it is behind the hip line that is all that matters. This is not a case of ROs missing the call, or Nils getting away with something. The governing body of the match feels it is legal. Done and done.

BBaron, the Aussies did a truly outstanding job at WS! I was lucky enough to shoot with Nick Kapor when he stopped in Phoenix on the way to WS. Not only a blazingly fast mountain of a man but super nice and friendly as the day is long. Glad to see him do so well.

Interesting. Just looked at my shooting shorts and pants now and all of their front pockets have openings exactly at the hip bone area. Hmmmm. That changes my defenition of rear pockets now

Sent from my Xiaomi Mi3

Wild eh? I would just be careful that the pocket below the opening doesnt move stuff including magazines past the hip bone. I have a pair that are exactly like that. Whatever I put in ends up on the front of my leg.

My shooting shorts. See the hipbone line? The opening of the pocket is in line with the hip portion. Ergo, my shorts have no front pockets just rear pockets and side pockets

Edited November 5, 2014 by bonglee0507

[a matt]

Im reading the rules now and i still cant find the rule that states that as long as the pocket is behind or in line with the hip bone it is considered rear pocket.

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Vince P. made that ruling.

[bonglee0507]

Im reading the rules now and i still cant find the rule that states that as long as the pocket is behind or in line with the hip bone it is considered rear pocket.

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Vince P. made that ruling.

Oh so at any moment he can change the rules. Good to know that

[ktm300]

Yes Vince, and for that matter IPSC, seem to be able to do what they want with the rules.

An example is what Guga Ribus did on stage 22. He ran past a target then lost his balance going back, made the shot then stepped out of the shooting area. He contiued to cut the corner off and did not come back in where he went out. Me, having read the IPSC rule book about taking shortcuts assessed 1 procedural for each shot fired after he took the short cut. He pitched a fit, and lied his butt off about what happened. The area CRO comes to see me, I told her what happened. She proceeded to argue with the IPSC RO about what the penalty should be. It is very plainly stated in the rule book.

After a while the RM was called, he talked to me, drew diagrams, etc, then he ruled that because Guga didn't mean to short cut, he just lost his balance, there would be no penalty. Me I did not see that in the rules but who am I, just a lowly USPSA CRO.

IPSC does what it wants to do. I think the ruling on Nils was not near as far from the rule book as the one given to Guga. Equipment position is defined as behind the hip bone, loading from a pocket is allowed, the pocket was behind the hip bone. I would not have called that on anyone.

[bonglee0507]

Yes Vince, and for that matter IPSC, seem to be able to do what they want with the rules.

An example is what Guga Ribus did on stage 22. He ran past a target then lost his balance going back, made the shot then stepped out of the shooting area. He contiued to cut the corner off and did not come back in where he went out. Me, having read the IPSC rule book about taking shortcuts assessed 1 procedural for each shot fired after he took the short cut. He pitched a fit, and lied his butt off about what happened. The area CRO comes to see me, I told her what happened. She proceeded to argue with the IPSC RO about what the penalty should be. It is very plainly stated in the rule book.

After a while the RM was called, he talked to me, drew diagrams, etc, then he ruled that because Guga didn't mean to short cut, he just lost his balance, there would be no penalty. Me I did not see that in the rules but who am I, just a lowly USPSA CRO.

IPSC does what it wants to do. I think the ruling on Nils was not near as far from the rule book as the one given to Guga. Equipment position is defined as behind the hip bone, loading from a pocket is allowed, the pocket was behind the hip bone. I would not have called that on anyone.

Are shorts considered equipment? The equipment being described in the equipment positioning refers to the holster and mag pouches not the shorts Edited November 5, 2014 by bonglee0507

[ktm300]

Are shorts considered equipment? The equipment being described in the equipment positioning refers to the holster and mag pouches not the shorts

Well, Vince has ruled, I am sure Dino has heard about it, we have talked about it at great length. At this point you may not like it but it is the way it is. I did not like the ruling for Guga but I got over it. I suggest you do the same.

[bonglee0507]

Are shorts considered equipment? The equipment being described in the equipment positioning refers to the holster and mag pouches not the shorts

Well, Vince has ruled, I am sure Dino has heard about it, we have talked about it at great length. At this point you may not like it but it is the way it is. I did not like the ruling for Guga but I got over it. I suggest you do the same.

We're over it in fact we'll shoot on saturday with no mag pouches on. That could be the secret

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[ktm300]

Are shorts considered equipment? The equipment being described in the equipment positioning refers to the holster and mag pouches not the shorts

Well, Vince has ruled, I am sure Dino has heard about it, we have talked about it at great length. At this point you may not like it but it is the way it is. I did not like the ruling for Guga but I got over it. I suggest you do the same.

We're over it in fact we'll shoot on saturday with no mag pouches on. That could be the secret

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Sure, let me know how that works out. To me its a lot faster to pull from pouches but..........

[jrbet83]

Here you go bonglee

Continue on

Edited November 5, 2014 by jrbet83

[bonglee0507]

Here you go bonglee

Continue on

Oh yeah!

[ktm300]

Here you go bonglee

Continue on

Oh yeah!

LMFAO

[a matt]

Here you go bonglee

Continue on

Oh yeah!

LMFAO

PLUS 1 LMFAO!!! That's awesome...thank you.

[shred]

As I mentioned before, we specifically asked the RO on that stage if loads from a pocket (ANY pocket) were ok, and he said as long as they came from a division-allowed location. Nothing about 'front', 'back' or 'side', just where they came from.

Maybe that isn't the actual rule, but that's how he was ruling.

Now go look at Appendix E2 and see just how far forward pockets need to be to get in front of the line.

[bonglee0507]

As I mentioned before, we specifically asked the RO on that stage if loads from a pocket (ANY pocket) were ok, and he said as long as they came from a division-allowed location. Nothing about 'front', 'back' or 'side', just where they came from.

Maybe that isn't the actual rule, but that's how he was ruling.

Now go look at Appendix E2 and see just how far forward pockets need to be to get in front of the line.

IPSCE2.JPG

What happened to this

5.2.4

Spare ammunition, magazines and speed loaders should be carried in retention devices specifically designed for that purpose. Carriage of additional magazines and speed loaders in REAR pockets of shorts or trousers is also approved.

That illustration you posted refers to equipment positioning and again i will ask, ARE SHORTS/TROUSERS considered equipment????

I just cant understand, IPSC has a rulebook but they dont follow it

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Edited November 5, 2014 by bonglee0507

[BeerBaron]

yes, congratulations nils. ultimately (I hate to say this so much) I agree with bonglee that rear pocket means the pockets on your arse. BUT and it's a bit BUT (no pun intended) in this case it matters for nothing for a number of reasons.

1, he wasn't called on it which means either the RO didn't see, or felt it was within his view of the rules of what a 'rear' pocket is.

2. it has such little bearing on the outcome as to be meaningless. let's say he put a mag in his rear (bum) pocket and took that one instead. whould it make a difference? I doubt more than 0.1 or 0.2 of a second.

and the third and most important reason?

it's over. he won. he won by shooting the best balance between speed and accuracy. not by having magic pockets.

and being someone patriotic I have to say congratulations to the Australians who did well and there were a few but in particular for Brodie to achieve 3rd in open is a fantastic achievement. There is no such thing as a 'professional' shooter in my country. The top guys all have to have other full time jobs/careers to support their shooting. Australia also had top lady in open with Karla Blowers. well done.

Yup and this is about rules and not about personalities. Its a bump to open if the ro saw it

well the definition of a 'rear' pocket is somewhat in question. it now seems (from other posts after mine) that the rules comittee has clarified that 'rear' pocket now means any pocket where the opening is behind the hip bone. if that's the case then it matters even less now. besides which I'm sure he would have rather had an extra mag in a pouch rather than doing a pocket load.

anyway, it was a great close match. the right guy won and I think perhaps you may now be doing as the gifs above suggest and flogging a horse that is somewhat less than fresh...

[BeerBaron]

As I mentioned before, we specifically asked the RO on that stage if loads from a pocket (ANY pocket) were ok, and he said as long as they came from a division-allowed location. Nothing about 'front', 'back' or 'side', just where they came from.

Maybe that isn't the actual rule, but that's how he was ruling.

Now go look at Appendix E2 and see just how far forward pockets need to be to get in front of the line.

IPSCE2.JPG

What happened to this

5.2.4

Spare ammunition, magazines and speed loaders should be carried in retention devices specifically designed for that purpose. Carriage of additional magazines and speed loaders in REAR pockets of shorts or trousers is also approved.

That illustration you posted refers to equipment positioning and again i will ask, ARE SHORTS/TROUSERS considered equipment????

I just cant understand, IPSC has a rulebook but they dont follow it

Sent from my iPad Air using Tapatalk HD

come on buddy. wooosaaahh. let this one go.

for the most part the rules are fine and are administered just fine too. even in this case I don't think any different ruling would have changed the outcome, nor would it have changed anyone elses stage planning or equipment set-up. knowing that I can pull my emergency mag from a 'side' pocket (behind hip) or from a rear pocket changes nothing in the way I'll shoot. like you I thought rear meant the (usually) 1 or 2 pockets on the butt. now I know different but it changes nothing for me.

[bonglee0507]

yes, congratulations nils. ultimately (I hate to say this so much) I agree with bonglee that rear pocket means the pockets on your arse. BUT and it's a bit BUT (no pun intended) in this case it matters for nothing for a number of reasons.

1, he wasn't called on it which means either the RO didn't see, or felt it was within his view of the rules of what a 'rear' pocket is.

2. it has such little bearing on the outcome as to be meaningless. let's say he put a mag in his rear (bum) pocket and took that one instead. whould it make a difference? I doubt more than 0.1 or 0.2 of a second.

and the third and most important reason?

it's over. he won. he won by shooting the best balance between speed and accuracy. not by having magic pockets.

and being someone patriotic I have to say congratulations to the Australians who did well and there were a few but in particular for Brodie to achieve 3rd in open is a fantastic achievement. There is no such thing as a 'professional' shooter in my country. The top guys all have to have other full time jobs/careers to support their shooting. Australia also had top lady in open with Karla Blowers. well done.

Yup and this is about rules and not about personalities. Its a bump to open if the ro saw it

well the definition of a 'rear' pocket is somewhat in question. it now seems (from other posts after mine) that the rules comittee has clarified that 'rear' pocket now means any pocket where the opening is behind the hip bone. if that's the case then it matters even less now. besides which I'm sure he would have rather had an extra mag in a pouch rather than doing a pocket load.

anyway, it was a great close match. the right guy won and I think perhaps you may now be doing as the gifs above suggest and flogging a horse that is somewhat less than fresh...

Ya and somehow that ruling is a bit off. Only in ipsc. Tsk tsk. Nothing against Nils and as i have said before i know damn well that was not intentional and my posts are not intended to take the title away from him. But most of the foreign shooters there at the ws were a bit dissapointed with that ruling, i was there and we were all talking about it. As onof them said, rules are meant to be followed and they are not to be changed in an instant.

[bonglee0507]

As I mentioned before, we specifically asked the RO on that stage if loads from a pocket (ANY pocket) were ok, and he said as long as they came from a division-allowed location. Nothing about 'front', 'back' or 'side', just where they came from.

Maybe that isn't the actual rule, but that's how he was ruling.

Now go look at Appendix E2 and see just how far forward pockets need to be to get in front of the line.

IPSCE2.JPG

What happened to this

5.2.4

Spare ammunition, magazines and speed loaders should be carried in retention devices specifically designed for that purpose. Carriage of additional magazines and speed loaders in REAR pockets of shorts or trousers is also approved.

That illustration you posted refers to equipment positioning and again i will ask, ARE SHORTS/TROUSERS considered equipment????

I just cant understand, IPSC has a rulebook but they dont follow it

Sent from my iPad Air using Tapatalk HD

come on buddy. wooosaaahh. let this one go.

for the most part the rules are fine and are administered just fine too. even in this case I don't think any different ruling would have changed the outcome, nor would it have changed anyone elses stage planning or equipment set-up. knowing that I can pull my emergency mag from a 'side' pocket (behind hip) or from a rear pocket changes nothing in the way I'll shoot. like you I thought rear meant the (usually) 1 or 2 pockets on the butt. now I know different but it changes nothing for me.

Any diffrent ruling??? If it was ruled the other way around Nils would be in open div....

Btw, love the wooosah part

Edited November 5, 2014 by bonglee0507

[shred]

Dude, the RO said how he was ruling on it out loud within hearing of multiple ROs and nobody there said a thing about it. Are you saying that IROAs know less about the rules than you?

[bonglee0507]

Dude, the RO said how he was ruling on it out loud within hearing of multiple ROs and nobody there said a thing about it. Are you saying that IROAs know less about the rules than you?

No but at least we know how to read right

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