What to do?

[glandry51]

As a new shooter I would like some input on a situation I ran into recently. At a club level match, I was helping (as all shooters do) paste targets after they were scored. I found that on several occasions that the person calling scores was giving higher hits to certain individuals on targets. Such as giving A hits when it should have been C hits. As this is not my target to ask for a review, what is the course of action that should be taken?

Thanks

[bbbean]

Given that you're a new shooter, are you certain the calls were wrong? Are you familiar with USPSA rules on scoring?

If you're new and you don't understand something ask the RO for an explanation. As a rule, our sport tends to attract people with pretty high ethical standards, and the odds are a lot better that you misunderstood the scoring than that an RO was systematically giving someone better scores than they deserve.

BB

Edited July 1, 2013 by bbbean

[lcs]

Exactly as BB pointed out. If you see what you perceive as wrong scoring--Ask the RO for clarification. Local matches are great matches to learn as you can take a few extra minutes to answer questions.

[Mark R]

And remember, if the hole touches the perforation, you score the higher of the two scoring areas. See diagram on scoring.

[glandry51]

New as in not a master level, and yes the scoring was NOT correct. (I do know how to score and I do score our matches) I wasn't the only one who saw the errors. My question is more to the point of what is the basis if you do see this error. Do you have the right to question a score that is not on your target?

Edited July 1, 2013 by glandry51

[kmca]

Exactly as BB pointed out. If you see what you perceive as wrong scoring--Ask the RO for clarification. Local matches are great matches to learn as you can take a few extra minutes to answer questions.

I ran into a similar situation. I saw the target as clearly an alpha and a charlie. The RO said 2 alphas. The shooter (who, at least thought he was "big time") was following the RO. I was about to ask the RO, if the score was correct when the shooter told me to "shut up". I was a stunned and didn't say anything. What should I have done? BTW, since then, all of the "better" shooters I have come across, would correct the RO themselves. The usual comment is something like, "I want to score what I earn".

[Mark R]

If the RO walked by and was scoring and I was waiting to paste the target, I would ask the RO for clarification and/or correction.

[lcs]

New as in not a master level, and yes the scoring was NOT correct. (I do know how to score and I do score our matches) I wasn't the only one who saw the errors. My question is more to the point of what is the basis if you do see this error. Do you have the right to question a score that is not on your target?

In a Level II or III match, wrong scoring affects everyone. Having been an RO/CRO with some experience, I can say 2 alphas when I should have said 2 Cs. It happens. I try to be 100% correct, but sometimes shadows, sun, or to many pasters can play tricks on you. So, yes you should identify or "ask" about scoring that does not appear correct. Level I classifiers are important at local matches.

Most of us would want the correct score recorded.

[glandry51]

New as in not a master level, and yes the scoring was NOT correct. (I do know how to score and I do score our matches) I wasn't the only one who saw the errors. My question is more to the point of what is the basis if you do see this error. Do you have the right to question a score that is not on your target?

In a Level II or III match, wrong scoring affects everyone. Having been an RO/CRO with some experience, I can say 2 alphas when I should have said 2 Cs. It happens. I try to be 100% correct, but sometimes shadows, sun, or to many pasters can play tricks on you. So, yes you should identify or "ask" about scoring that does not appear correct. Level I classifiers are important at local matches.

Most of us would want the correct score recorded.

Thank you for the input. The incident that I am referring to was a husband giving his wife and a friend higher scores than they earned. It was a local match and most of the shooters there know each other. I had made a 3 hour drive and this was my first time at this match. He was called out by another local shooter and all was well after that. Trying to stay in the confines of not coming off as a jerk at a new match, I was trying to make sure I had the rules behind me to ask for a correction on a target that was not mine. As previously stated, most of those in our sport are of the highest ethical standards and this was the first time that I had seen this situation.

Edited July 1, 2013 by glandry51

[Bergie]

When ROs score targets they will sometimes call hits on targets that are not directly infront of them making you think they are calling the one they happen to be standing near. He also may be calling targets that he already walked past and is waiting for the clip board RO to repeat the previous target back to him before he calls the next one. He may not have called any targets incorrectly, he just called them in a different order than you were looking at.

[kmca]

I'm with the OP here. Just what is the "official" responsibility of a person just taping targets? Does anyone have the authority to question a target's scoring?

[Flexmoney]

I call "whoa" ...and suggest they look at that one again.

[Flexmoney]

I'm with the OP here. Just what is the "official" responsibility of a person just taping targets? Does anyone have the authority to question a target's scoring?

9.6.4 Any challenge to a score or penalty must be appealed to the Range

Officer by the competitor (or his delegate) prior to the subject target

being painted, patched, or reset, failing which such challenges will not

be accepted.

9.6.5 In the event that the Range Officer upholds the original score or penalty

and the competitor is dissatisfied, he may appeal to the Chief Range

Officer and then to the Range Master for a ruling.

[motosapiens]

I'm with the OP here. Just what is the "official" responsibility of a person just taping targets? Does anyone have the authority to question a target's scoring?

9.6.4 Any challenge to a score or penalty must be appealed to the Range

Officer by the competitor (or his delegate) prior to the subject target

being painted, patched, or reset, failing which such challenges will not

be accepted.

9.6.5 In the event that the Range Officer upholds the original score or penalty

and the competitor is dissatisfied, he may appeal to the Chief Range

Officer and then to the Range Master for a ruling.

Does 'competitor' mean *any* competitor? or only the actual shooter? Since an incorrect score affects everyone, I would tend to think that *any* competitor could challenge a scoring call.

[MarkCO]

I have been on all sides of this in some form or another...some people (from U to GM) are ethical and some are not. If you shoot this sport for any amount of time, you will see that. Here are some tips that I find helpful...

1. This is (for most of us) supposed to be fun, so don't let a cheater steal your enjoyment. I have been guilty of letting some other shooters get me all wound up, but no more.

2. The rulebook is supposed to be followed irrespective of personal issues. If someone can't do that, they need not be an official. A short talk with the MD/RM/SC/AD/DNROI might be in order for this kind of issue.

3. There is an RO discipline procedure, and if #2 does not help the issue, then this is a possibility.

4. The guy who gets 2nd for being honest is a better person than the winner who cheats his way there.

[ktm300]

I call "whoa" ...and suggest they look at that one again.

+1 though I am not sure I actually say "whoa".

If I am calling targets I try not to, but I make mistakes now and again. I never mind when someone points them out to me.

The guy that calls "double" on every miss tends to get under my skin a little.

[High Lord Gomer]

The guy that calls "double" on every miss tends to get under my skin a little.

But when I go *really* fast, I shoot a lot of doubles1

[lcs]

I'm with the OP here. Just what is the "official" responsibility of a person just taping targets? Does anyone have the authority to question a target's scoring?

9.6.4 Any challenge to a score or penalty must be appealed to the Range

Officer by the competitor (or his delegate) prior to the subject target

being painted, patched, or reset, failing which such challenges will not

be accepted.

9.6.5 In the event that the Range Officer upholds the original score or penalty

and the competitor is dissatisfied, he may appeal to the Chief Range

Officer and then to the Range Master for a ruling.

Doesn't this really apply to the shooter or competitor? If I or my delegate does not agree as the targets are scored. Does not really apply to someone pasting.

I do agree with "Whoa"

[High Lord Gomer]

Maybe...

"I only see one Alpha...where is the other one I need to paste?"

[glandry51]

Again guys, this DID happen and he was called out for it. That is not the question here. My question was, does anyone have the right (by rule) to question the scoring of a target? I was only trying to give a real world example that did not help the shooter and therefore would be much more likely to be seen unfavorably by others. Had the RO called an Alpha Charlie and I said, wait its a double Alpha...everyone would have said thanks. But having to make a difficult call that negatively affects someone else's score is not so easy; so I was just asking for clarification if this could be done by rule.

[sperman]

If I recall, a couple of years ago at Nationals a 3rd party challenged the score on a target (not the shooter or his delegate.) I don't remember the details, but I do remember that any competitor is allowed to challenge a scoring call.

I found the thread I was thining of:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=137376

[MarkCO]

If you are the RO, then you should be checking. TWO ROs should really look at the targets, one calls, the other checks and agrees.

Staff is there to officiate, competitors are there to win. Yes, in local matches, the responsibilities intertwine. If you see a score called to your benefit you did not earn, tell the RO. If you see a score called to someone else's benefit they did not earn, tell them. In time you will be able to weed out those with integrity and those without. How you chose to deal with each occurrence is sometimes a gray area.

There are some GMs who I would feel confident allowing them to shoot a stage, come tell me the time and their hits knowing if I went and checked, they would be right. There are some other GMs, I will never let get between me and a target and I watch them like a hawk because I have personally known them to cheat. To think that the other GMs don't know who these few are is ignorant. They know, and there are prices paid for their lack of integrity in other ways. I have had a few call me back to recheck a target because they thought I had given them something they had not earned. That is the model to follow IMHO. Act with integrity and others may too.

When a white glove goes into the mud puddle, the puddle does not get "glovey", rather the glove gets muddy...

Edited July 1, 2013 by MarkCO

[ima45dv8]

With pasters on my fingertips, I've stopped many RO's and said, "You might want to look at that again."

Likewise, I've had people stop me and say, "You might want to look at that again."

I'm not sure there's a rule that specifically empowers me to do that, but I'm pretty sure there isn't one preventing it, either.

Do what's right.

[EEH]

If I recall, a couple of years ago at Nationals a 3rd party challenged the score on a target (not the shooter or his delegate.) I don't remember the details, but I do remember that any competitor is allowed to challenge a scoring call.

I found the thread I was thining of:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=137376

Was that during the rev.nat.one year

[Sarge]

Do what's right.

BINGO!