Prize Table Policy - Should there be Guidelines

[beltjones]

Should the prize table policy of a given match be a surprise to the competitors when they show up, or should USPSA issue guidelines on how to inform competitors of how the prize tables will run?

Before we go down that road, I'm not advocating that USPSA make a rule on how to distribute prizes.

What I'm suggesting is that on the registration form there should be guidance on how the prize table will run. For example, it would say, "Cash prizes to division winners, random prize draw, must be present to win." Or, "Prizes awarded in order of finish, if not present must appoint delegate to collect prize." Or, "Prizes awarded in order of finish within class (1st A, 1st B, 2nd A, 2nd B etc), must appoint delegate IN WRITING to collect prize."

It's a little annoying to go to a match only to find out you scheduled your flight to take off a couple hours after the last stage, but it's a random prize table and you have to be present to win. It's also helpful when deciding on which matches to attend if you know the prize table is distributed in a way you think is fair to the competitors. In other words, D-C class folks might prefer to go to matches with random prizes and out of towners might not go to matches where you have to be present to win a prize. Not to mention, it can be really difficult at a match to find out exactly what the prize table policy is. Often no one but the MD seems to know, and he can be difficult to track down.

I don't think there need to be complex rules about this stuff, but if USPSA is reviewing stages for acceptance as a level II match, it's probably a good idea to also issue guidance on what information to include in a registration form.

[DWFAN]

Yes, I think the match should publish (on the entry form or website preferably) before hand how the prize table will be handled. Match organizers should be able to take care of this without "guidance" from USPSA though.

[ac4wordplay]

It's reasonable for a competitor to expect this information to be easily/publicly available prior to paying the match fee. This consideration is overlooked/ignored so commonly that it's absence (unfortunately) has few exceptions.

"Guidelines" seems to be non-binding language, similar to 'suggestions', and could be disregarded and therefor meaningless. A "rule" presents other issues which may be better left untouched.

"Guidelines" is probably better than the current rule book's prize table recognition (nothing), without presenting the problems of a "rule".

I would vote in favor.

[Flexmoney]

- If enough people cared, they'd ASK THE MATCH DIRECTOR. Then, it would take care of itself.

- USPSA isn't reviewing stages for LII's, NROI is. Their focus is rules. We don't have a rule on how a Match should run their table.

- There is guidance on any number of things. That doesn't mean anybody reads/follows it to any degree.

[beltjones]

- If enough people cared, they'd ASK THE MATCH DIRECTOR. Then, it would take care of itself.

- USPSA isn't reviewing stages for LII's, NROI is. Their focus is rules. We don't have a rule on how a Match should run their table.

- There is guidance on any number of things. That doesn't mean anybody reads/follows it to any degree.

I was going to say the above is a little pedantic, but this is Enos, and we sweat the details here. heh.

The problem is, if 70 people ask the match director, then 70 people might get answers. That doesn't mean the rest of the folks will get answers. It also doesn't mean the MD will give everyone the same answer, and it doesn't mean the MD will do what he says when it comes time to distribute prizes. Having the prize table policy stipulated on the match website is a "best practice" that can only improve the match experience of competitors. Like I said, I don't think there needs to be a rule created, but having a checklist (or some guidelines) published by USPSA is a good idea.

[sperman]

I'm with Flex. If you want to know, ask the MD before sending in your entry. If you don't like the answer, don't shoot the match.

[beltjones]

I'm starting to think a wiki of sorts might be a good idea. Everyone is always saying how the organization should be more member-driven, so I think it would be good to have members provide relevant data for a given match. Forget the guidelines, the shooters can add relevant data.

For example, regarding the MS Classic last weekend, I would add the following:

Random prize table - must be present to win.

Awesome live music and all you can eat crawfish Saturday night.

Bring bug spray!

[38SuperDub]

Don't forget - CASH PAYOUTS for division / class winners and A+ Match staff and facility

[BillD]

B Class Senior shooters should get first crack at the prize tables.

[JakeMartens]

I say get rid of them all together

[38SuperDub]

Get rid of all the seniors? That's not very politically correct!!!

[BillD]

He wouldn't get rid of me....he NEEDS me....

[motosapiens]

I'm with Flex. If you want to know, ask the MD before sending in your entry. If you don't like the answer, don't shoot the match.

I agree that if you want to know, you should ask the MD, but I also agree that the MD should just be proactive and publish that information and save himself (and others) some trouble. It's not rocket science, it's just a good business model (and common courtesy).

For most people, it's not that much of an issue, but like the OP state, sometimes people have travel plans or other arrangements that may depend on it.

[Cy Soto]

For me, being able to shoot the match is incentive enough. If I happen to place well and win a prize, great but, when I sign up for a match, the prize table is not my priority.

[JakeMartens]

Get rid of all the seniors? That's not very politicwaste. co

Super seniors....

No prize tables.

As a person that has out together prize tables since 2001, I say dump them.

The amount of time and effort put into them, and the amount of money that companies put out would be much better served by them sponsoring shooters or teams of shooters.

Just putting stuff on a table to get listed in a match book that ends up thrown away later is not money well spent for those companies.

Discount certificates would serve those companies much better.

No matter how you do a prize table people are going to complain.

Put on a great match, award the staff, have great stages, and save the time and effort for better things

[Airedale]

I say get rid of them all together

I agree.

Or announce it is a winner take all. HOA cleans the prize table.

Dave

[John Heiter]

I'm starting to think a wiki of sorts might be a good idea. Everyone is always saying how the organization should be more member-driven, so I think it would be good to have members provide relevant data for a given match. Forget the guidelines, the shooters can add relevant data.

For example, regarding the MS Classic last weekend, I would add the following:

Random prize table - must be present to win.

Awesome live music and all you can eat crawfish Saturday night.

Bring bug spray!

I disagree with USPSA needing to set any "guidelines" on something like a prize table policy. It should be up to each match to decide.

Given the number of issues involved with getting prizes (especially firearms) to winners who don't/can't stick around to pick them up at the match, I think those folks probably should accept some level of personal responsibility for finding out what the policy is for each match if they know they will need to leave early.

As far as this year's MS Classic, I can certainly understand there being some hard feelings. There were quite a few people who forfeited their prizes because they chose to leave early, including a couple people who had their names drawn to win guns from the prize table that were not there so the guns went to other shooters. I don't think there should be too many hard feelings though because the Match Director DID clearly state that shooters must be present to win when he put out the announcement about the match.

Check the first post in this thread:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=164483

John

Edited May 20, 2013 by John Heiter

[Jerome]

I wouldn't mind the prize tables going away as well. Not what I consider when choosing a match. Give a prize to HOA, Division/Class winners, placers and showers along with their plaques. Use the funds for staff & ROs. Maybe use funds to bribe (food, hotel, transportation, etc) more top shooters to attend your match.

[Cy Soto]

Maybe use funds to bribe (food, hotel, transportation, etc) more top shooters to attend your match.

That could open a whole 'nother can of worms...

[beltjones]

I'm starting to think a wiki of sorts might be a good idea. Everyone is always saying how the organization should be more member-driven, so I think it would be good to have members provide relevant data for a given match. Forget the guidelines, the shooters can add relevant data.

For example, regarding the MS Classic last weekend, I would add the following:

Random prize table - must be present to win.

Awesome live music and all you can eat crawfish Saturday night.

Bring bug spray!

I disagree with USPSA needing to set any "guidelines" on something like a prize table policy. It should be up to each match to decide.

Given the number of issues involved with getting prizes (especially firearms) to winners who don't/can't stick around to pick them up at the match, I think those folks probably should accept some level of personal responsibility for finding out what the policy is for each match if they know they will need to leave early.

As far as this year's MS Classic, I can certainly understand there being some hard feelings. There were quite a few people who forfeited their prizes because they chose to leave early, including a couple people who had their names drawn to win guns from the prize table that were not there so the guns went to other shooters. I don't think there should be too many hard feelings though because the Match Director DID clearly state that shooters must be present to win when he put out the announcement about the match.

Check the first post in this thread:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=164483

John

First, I think I made it pretty clear that it should be up to MDs to decide how to run their prize tables.

This thread wasn't specific MS Classic, but since you brought it up as an example, let's discuss it. Did the post you linked specify when the prizes would be distributed? Was it clear to competitors it would be after the match? Not all random draw prize tables occur after the match is complete. In fact, doing the random draw Saturday night during the Crawfish boil might make sense, no?

Also, I really don't understand the "must be present to win" thing. We all pay an equal match fee, we're not basing prizes on performance, so why penalize people who need to leave before the prizes are distributed? What is the downside to allowing people to appoint delegates in case they are lucky enough to win something? Someone who needs to drive home in order to make it to work ought to have the same opportunity to win something as someone who lives nearby, otherwise it's not truly "random draw," it's "random draw with local preference."

[John Heiter]

This thread may not be about the MS Classic but it is the only match that has been mentioned by name so far in this thread. I responded to the post that did mention the MS Classic specifically that said the match should add words saying "Must be present to win" and I pointed out that the match announcement for the match DID contain those words.

I get that some may have overlooked that statement and I'm sorry about that, but the MS Classic has had the same prize table format and policy for years now and it was clearly stated in the match announcement.

There are a few reasons why a match might employ a "must be present to win" policy. One of the biggest is that vendors pay big bucks to come setup for these matches. We all want them there because they give shooters the opportunity to pick up quality products at good prices without the hassle/cost of shipping. They also contribute cash and prizes for the prize tables and they pay for their own gas, lodging, and meals. They do all this in the hopes of getting enough sales to cover their costs and those hours between the last shot fired and the end of the awards/prizes are PRIME sales time for them. Having a policy that encourages shooters to bolt as soon as they unload and show clear is a good way to encourage your vendors not to come out and not to support the match next time. There are other reasons as well but that's a big one and may help understand the reason behind the policy.

John

[lcs]

IRS---you start putting rules for prize tables and the next thing you know.....................

[remoandiris]

At last year's Area 1 banquet there were people who left the room and missed out on winning a gun. The match finished the next day. The folks just didn't feel like hanging around for the drawings.

[jdphotoguy]

USPSA does not need to be involved in something as trivial as prize table guidelines.

[EkuJustice]

I agree uspsa dosent need to get involved in prize tables. Honestly no matter what you do your not gonna make everyone happy. The match director does the best they can to use the prizes that were donated to make the most people happy and promote the sponsors the best they can. If they take the very expensive stuff and go to the champ it makes the handful of people that actually have a chance of winning them happy but does little to draw anyone else to the match who has no chance of getting one. It also dosent make the sponsors who donated them look like they are well appreciated when they end up sold right off the bat. Do random draw and it gets the top shooters mad as they arnt gonna necessarily win a gun if they win the match. It does help draw others to the match as they have a chance of getting the gun and it puts the sponsors where there is a better chance of someone actually getting and keeping their gun. It's a delicate balance as to not piss off the top gm guys as well as not alienate the a-c class guys who make up the majority of the shooters at your ave level 2 match.

I have been on both sides so seen it from both was in different sports. Shooting uspsa as a b class shooter and coming from Skeet where I was a very competitive AAA