Siaga vs Akdal vs Xrail for open

[DrLove]

folks, newbie trying to learn. So open shooters, what do you think is best in above for open assuming you can get all the bells and whistles on either?

[Alaskapopo]

R&R Saiga here.

Pros'

1. Reliable

2. low recoil flat shooting

3. Ability to quickly change from an entire mag of shot or slugs.

4. High capacity mags up to 20 rounds.

Cons

1. Cost.

2. Mag fed shot guns are more finicky on shells when it comes to the hulls themselves.

3. If parts break finding new ones can't be difficult depending on what it is. (12 gauge specific AK parts)

AKDAL

Pro's

1. Cheaper

2. High capacity mags up to 18 rounds

3. ability to change from an entire man of shot to slugs.

Cons

1. mag avaliablity is difficult especially for over 10 round mags.

2. more recoil and not able to take a mid barrel comp. My friends AKDAL from Firebird really thumps me compared to my R&R in fact it kicks more than my M2 Benelli or so it seems.

3. Mag fed shotguns need stiffer smoother hulls for best function.

Used to say not as reliable but at the last match both of my friends AKDALS ran. It seems they are more sensitive to funcitonal problems in the cold.

XRail

Pro's

1. Cheaper if you already own a suitable shotgun.

2. Not as finicky on ammo.

Cons.

1. Reliablity can be lacking on certain guns.

2. balance sucks with a box of shells hanging by your muzzle.

3. Not as easy to load more than 1 or 2 slugs at a time if different ammo is needed. If you are on the next tube you can't load any more unless you shoot out the rounds or jack them through the gun.

4. Once gun has been ran dry you can not load it back up to full capacity on the clock where with the AKDAL or Saiga you can just throw in a new 20 round mag if needed.

Pat

Edited May 18, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[latech15]

I know some people who would argue the reliability point as a pro on the saiga. I know, I know, yours runs, but all in all, they are not very reliable.

I had an Akdal that ran, sold it. I think that if I ever go back to open, I will use speed loaders like Jerry and Mike. Two of the best do it that way, why not try it?

[JFlowers]

The problem with Speedloaders is that Armstec has quit making them (and gone out of business I think). So the only ones available are on the secondary market and are hard to find.

[Jesse Tischauser]

The problem with Speedloaders is that Armstec has quit making them (and gone out of business I think). So the only ones available are on the secondary market and are hard to find.

This is bad news since they have the patent.

I opted for a fully integrated XRail Benelli. There aren't many times when you need to reload anything with 27 rounds on tap. Plus a Benelli is the mist reliable shotgun out there even when you hang a box of shells on it.

[outerlimits]

The patent expired, but there is such a small market for someone to start making them.

[Alaskapopo]

I know some people who would argue the reliability point as a pro on the saiga. I know, I know, yours runs, but all in all, they are not very reliable.

I had an Akdal that ran, sold it. I think that if I ever go back to open, I will use speed loaders like Jerry and Mike. Two of the best do it that way, why not try it?

You can not lump all Saigas together anymore than you can lump all 1911's or AR15's together. An R&R Saiga is a far different animal vs a stock Vodka special. Just like a JP ar is not like an M&A parts AR15 put together by Bubba, just like a Custom 2011 from Bennie Hill is not the same as a kitchen table gunsmith put together 1911. We have 3 R&R Saigas up here all running well. Its very hard for a shooter with speedloaders to keep up with a mag fed shotgun on a long course of fire. I remember 2 years ago in Texas when they had an all shotgun stage with some 23 rounds requied myself and a friend came in 4th and 5th place on that stage using an R&R saiga out of 52 shooters. The long courses of fire are where the highcapacity shotguns shine. Up here we routinly have stages that required from 20 to 35 rounds of shotgun rounds fired. The guys with speedloaders could not keep up and most in open have gone to R&R Saigas, AKDAL's and Xrails. I know in some areas that shotgun stages have been parred back to limit this advantage but is that the direction we want the sport to go. To basically design courses of fire to accomdate older weapon designs. That said nothing in this post is meant to offend those that prefer older designs with speedloaders. I am just a very big fan of mag fed shotguns namely the R&R Saiga as they have done very well for me.

Pat

Edited May 18, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[RH45]

I bought one of the first Firebird Akdals last year and it had to go back 3 times for upgrades to get it to run. I'm now happy to report it runs 100%. I put about 350 rounds through it at the Rockcastle shotgun match, and just got back from the CMMG 3-gun match where I ran about 150 rounds through it, plus maybe a couple hundred playing on the sporting clays range. I put 2 mercury, recoil reducers in the stock tube, and it still kicks me harder than my JP 1100.

I can start with 14 in my JP 1100, or 16 in my Firebird, and although I can shoot the JP a lot faster, I can reload the Firebird faster, but, I never actually practice.

The Xrail is for somebody a LOT stronger than I am.

Working the Rockcastle, shotgun match, and several other 3-gun matches, I've seen every shotgun made choke, including Remington 870s and Benelli Novas.

[gose]

R&R Saiga here.

Pros'

1. Reliable

2. low recoil flat shooting

3. Ability to quickly change from an entire mag of shot or slugs.

4. High capacity mags up to 20 rounds.

Cons

1. Cost.

2. Mag fed shot guns are more finicky on shells when it comes to the hulls themselves.

3. If parts break finding new ones can't be difficult depending on what it is. (12 gauge specific AK parts)

AKDAL

Pro's

1. Cheaper

2. High capacity mags up to 18 rounds

3. ability to change from an entire man of shot to slugs.

Cons

1. mag avaliablity is difficult especially for over 10 round mags.

2. more recoil and not able to take a mid barrel comp. My friends AKDAL from Firebird really thumps me compared to my R&R in fact it kicks more than my M2 Benelli or so it seems.

3. Mag fed shotguns need stiffer smoother hulls for best function.

Used to say not as reliable but at the last match both of my friends AKDALS ran. It seems they are more sensitive to funcitonal problems in the cold.

XRail

Pro's

1. Cheaper if you already own a suitable shotgun.

2. Not as finicky on ammo.

Cons.

1. Reliablity can be lacking on certain guns.

2. balance sucks with a box of shells hanging by your muzzle.

3. Not as easy to load more than 1 or 2 slugs at a time if different ammo is needed. If you are on the next tube you can't load any more unless you shoot out the rounds or jack them through the gun.

4. Once gun has been ran dry you can not load it back up to full capacity on the clock where with the AKDAL or Saiga you can just throw in a new 20 round mag if needed.

Pat

I pretty much agree with the all of the above, except maybe on the reliability part. I'd argue that the Firebird Akdals are at least as reliable as any Saigas I've seen out there. Ive also seen quite a few Saigas go down hard and not being able to finish the stage/match, but I still havent seen any Akdal do that. There are more Saigas with a lot more rounds through them out there though, so might just be a matter of time though, but so far the Akdals seem to be holding up well.

[BlueOvalBruin]

My Saiga choked hard at superstition. It's been finicky all along and I don't even use a comp. Have a FB Akdal on the way, we'll see how it goes.

[fastshooter03]

Maybe somebody could put up some real world costs of all 3 options?

IF that is even a factor nowadays....

I know the XRAIL integrated Benelli(26 rds) is around 3K and the XRAIL add-on(23 rds) is around $700..

I don't know how much the mag fed guns are plus the high cap mags you need.

Nick

[frag316]

I can't speak to the Firebird Akdal, but my experience has been:

Shotgun--$675

Magazines--$80-ish each x 6

Tooth and Nail Handguard--$240

TROMIX Gas Piston--$35

TROMIX Gas Ring--$10

TROMIX Trigger/Disconnector Set--$30

Replacement US-made hammer (TROMIX, maybe?)--$50

Stock Adapter--$60

Enidine Shot Stock--$120

Magpul CTR Buttstock--$65

Somewhere around $1765, all in for me. I did all of the work myself, so that part was free. I don't have any of the 18- or 15-round magazine adapters or anything like that. I also put an EOTech on as my sight, so another $450, but I don't count that because I can put the sight on another gun.

[RH45]

I think I have around 3K in my Firebird, with all my mags.

Last year it wouldn't run reliably, but since Jim installed the full ramp, it has been 100%.

[Alaskapopo]

R&R Saiga 3300 for Open plus extra mags. You will want at least 1 20 rounder for 175 and a coupled mag set for approximately 120 (2x12's put together) and 1 spare 12 rounder for 60.

Added up that is 3535. Just got done with the match we hosted her and the top 3 finishers in Open were running R&R Saigas and I did not see a malfunction during the match. There were 4 people using R&R Saigas the 4th had some pistol issues that dropped him down a few places. This match was proof that R&R Saigas are reliable not just mine.

%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Ken R/th_IMGP5992_zps10a354f7.jpg

Edited May 31, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[SouthernGunsLLC]

Dude ^^^^^^

That was awesome!

[Patrickxx]

I've had my akdal for a month and so far it's been running well. Here's some footage from my fourth three gun match second big match.

[Akkid17]

I've had a chance to run a saiga a couple of times and an akdal a couple of times both are awesome. The saiga is a little easier on the shooter but its still a shotgun, I don't like how so much has to be changed to get it to competition level and mounting optics is kind of annoying with either a side mount like an AK or a stock adapter style but still a rocking gun. I bought an akdal and payed a full 1000 less than alaska popo did with a similar amount of mags and its the firebird so I now have an extra grand in the bank. I also like the fact that the akdal is so similar to an AR so I don't need to "get used" to another system, mounted an eotech and it points like an ar but kicks like a 12ga. If money is no object get the one that suits you the best, although I wouldn't advise an xrail system because of the reloading situation (mike and jerry are in a class of their own, but Clint Upchurch uses an r&r saiga) plus they have been known to be as temperamental of not more temperamental than mag shottys. I watched two to down in a match last year on my squad (talk about frustrating) and I wouldn't want to have to rack out all the issue ammo rather than just dropping the mag and clearing the chamber and gassing it back up and moving on. The best advice I've gotten about any gear or gun buys is to find someone with one and see if they'll let you use it, don't buy three shotguns to find the one you like. That and I'd wait til next year to buy any to see how this season goes for people with both systems and use that to go forward. Or do what I did and see a good deal in the classifieds and just get one.

[Alaskapopo]

I've had a chance to run a saiga a couple of times and an akdal a couple of times both are awesome. The saiga is a little easier on the shooter but its still a shotgun, I don't like how so much has to be changed to get it to competition level and mounting optics is kind of annoying with either a side mount like an AK or a stock adapter style but still a rocking gun. I bought an akdal and payed a full 1000 less than alaska popo did with a similar amount of mags and its the firebird so I now have an extra grand in the bank. I also like the fact that the akdal is so similar to an AR so I don't need to "get used" to another system, mounted an eotech and it points like an ar but kicks like a 12ga. If money is no object get the one that suits you the best, although I wouldn't advise an xrail system because of the reloading situation (mike and jerry are in a class of their own, but Clint Upchurch uses an r&r saiga) plus they have been known to be as temperamental of not more temperamental than mag shottys. I watched two to down in a match last year on my squad (talk about frustrating) and I wouldn't want to have to rack out all the issue ammo rather than just dropping the mag and clearing the chamber and gassing it back up and moving on. The best advice I've gotten about any gear or gun buys is to find someone with one and see if they'll let you use it, don't buy three shotguns to find the one you like. That and I'd wait til next year to buy any to see how this season goes for people with both systems and use that to go forward. Or do what I did and see a good deal in the classifieds and just get one.

One point the Saiga from R&R has AR15 controls. Safety, mag release etc. Both are viable platforms.

Pat

[Jesse Tischauser]

Reloading situation? You don't reload an XRail that's the whole point.

[Alaskapopo]

Reloading situation? You don't reload an XRail that's the whole point.

I have created stages where you would have to reload your Xrail. 30+ round counters with slugs mixed in. I am sure there are some other matches like that around as well.

Pat

[Akkid17]

Ya, like the one we have in alaska coming up has a 35 round minimum shotgun stage. 25 flyers and 10 static clays talk a out a barrel burner.

[Patrickxx]

If it wasn't so far I'd love to shoot a match down there.

[Alaskapopo]

Plan it around a vacation, go fishing and shoot a match. Love to have you up here.

Pat

[AKJD]

Ya, like the one we have in alaska coming up has a 35 round minimum shotgun stage. 25 flyers and 10 static clays talk a out a barrel burner.

I was looking over those stages, yeah I'll definitely be practicing my loading some more before the match.

[gose]

I don't like how so much has to be changed to get it to competition level and mounting optics is kind of annoying with either a side mount like an AK or a stock adapter style but still a rocking gun.

It will be interesting to see if the Saiga builders are going to start building race guns on the VEPRs instead, since that should give them a better starting point than the Saiga, hopefully leading to a better and cheaper product.

A VEPR can be had for around $1000 OOB and thats with a pistol grip, rail on top, thumb safety and magwell. Add a good comp, dot and maybe some new trigger parts (or whatever else you need for 922®) and you'll have a pretty decent Open gun for less than $1500.

Edited June 3, 2013 by gose