When is a Squib not a Squib?

[beltjones]

5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a

suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition (e.g. a “squib” load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he

deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe

condition. The Range Officer will then inspect the handgun or ammunition and proceed as follows:

5.7.7.1 If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected

problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot, but will

be ordered to rectify the problem. On the competitor’s score

sheet, the time will be recorded up to the last shot fired, and the

course of fire will be scored “as shot”, including all applicable

misses and penalties.

5.7.7.2 If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problem

does not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the

stage.

You can't pick out one rule, and ignore the others. In this case there is an order that must also be followed.

5.7.7.1 cannot be applied until the course of fire has been terminated, and the range has been made safe. Only then will the RO make his inspection, as laid out in 5.7.7

The RO must then find evidence of the problem.

5.7.7.2 clearly states that if the problem does not exist at the time of the inspection, a reshoot is in order.

This may, or may not, be the intention of whoever wrote these rules, but it is what we have.

This seems correct to me.

Well cited.

I'll add that the squib load is only an example. There are certainly other instances of unsafe gun conditions as well.

I would argue that the evidence of an unsafe condition was found in this instance.

[wide45]

...I would argue that the evidence of an unsafe condition was found in this instance.

State your case. What unsafe condition was present after the range was made safe.

[beltjones]

...I would argue that the evidence of an unsafe condition was found in this instance.

State your case. What unsafe condition was present after the range was made safe.

The unsafe condition was present prior to the range being made clear. Hence the declaration "range is clear."

The whole "squib" thing is but one example. There are other examples of an unsafe gun or ammunition. What about a gun that doubles constantly? That's an unsafe gun, right? So the RO yells stop, the competitor unloads and shows clear, and then what? You believe one must prove with an unloaded gun that it will double in order to justify the call? Nonsense.

And in this case I obviously found evidence that confirmed the suspected problem. It was lying on the ground. I saw it fall out of the gun. There is nothing in the rulebook that says the bullet has to still be lodged in the barrel, it just says we have to find evidence to confirm the suspected problem. In this case, it was suspected that a round was stuck in the rifling. When we witnessed the round fall out of the rifling the suspicion was confirmed. Case closed.

[Poppa Bear]

...I would argue that the evidence of an unsafe condition was found in this instance.

State your case. What unsafe condition was present after the range was made safe.

The unsafe condition was present prior to the range being made clear. Hence the declaration "range is clear."

The whole "squib" thing is but one example. There are other examples of an unsafe gun or ammunition. What about a gun that doubles constantly? That's an unsafe gun, right? So the RO yells stop, the competitor unloads and shows clear, and then what? You believe one must prove with an unloaded gun that it will double in order to justify the call? Nonsense.

And in this case I obviously found evidence that confirmed the suspected problem. It was lying on the ground. I saw it fall out of the gun. There is nothing in the rulebook that says the bullet has to still be lodged in the barrel, it just says we have to find evidence to confirm the suspected problem. In this case, it was suspected that a round was stuck in the rifling. When we witnessed the round fall out of the rifling the suspicion was confirmed. Case closed.

Range is Clear is not issued until the suspected problem is resolved. In the case of a suspected squib you if possible verify whether there is an obstruction or not where you stopped the shooter. If it is not possible to verify the squib at the line then you verify that the chamber is empty, issue ICHDH and then send the shooter with an authorized range official to the safety area to verify if there is an obstruction. A loose bullet falling out of the port or magwell does not mean they had a squib. What evidence do you have that the shooter experienced a squib load rather than an improperly loaded round that came apart in the magazine and caused the gun to jamb? Did you hear a poof instead of a bang?

If I have a shooter drop the mag from the gun and then fail to chamber a round from a fresh mag, I will suspect they have a squib that was not caught. As long as they are still trying to clear a jam using the original mag it is still just a jam until I see unfired cases come out of the port, the slide well on its way to closing but failing, or some other indication that something is stuck in the chamber that is stopping the round from feeding. I as an RO need to document what was unsafe about the competitors gun. Having a jam is not unsafe.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Poppa Bear

[38SuperDub]

The competitor did try to load a couple rounds from existing mag and CHANGE mag and it was still doing so. I stopped him when on the 2nd mag I noticed the same issue was going on. I was on my "break" so to speak so I was sitting off to the side as we had 3 ROs so we alternated breaks. I had the same thing happen to me a few weeks ago - at first I thought ok the guy was just having some issues with the mag feeding but when he changed mag and it was still not allowing it to feed - i remembered my squib a couple weeks ago and yelled stop.

When it happened to me there wasn't enough audible difference for the RO to notice and stop me - the only clue was the round not chambering from 2 different mags. I figured it was better safe than sorry since the competitor tried 2 different mags and none would allow a round to chamber.

[Poppa Bear]

With your explanation I am more inclined to believe the shooter had a squib:

Squib . . . . . . . . . . . . . .A bullet or solid obstruction lodged inside the barrel of a firearm

The fact that it dropped out on its own is unusual, but the failure to feed a round from a fresh magazine does indicate some form of obstruction rather than a major jam of the original magazine.

[sperman]

Under your argument, if someone grabs a squib rod, and clears the bullet from the barrel before the RO allows him to holster and call RIC, then they get a reshoot.

[beltjones]

...I would argue that the evidence of an unsafe condition was found in this instance.

State your case. What unsafe condition was present after the range was made safe.

The unsafe condition was present prior to the range being made clear. Hence the declaration "range is clear."

The whole "squib" thing is but one example. There are other examples of an unsafe gun or ammunition. What about a gun that doubles constantly? That's an unsafe gun, right? So the RO yells stop, the competitor unloads and shows clear, and then what? You believe one must prove with an unloaded gun that it will double in order to justify the call? Nonsense.

And in this case I obviously found evidence that confirmed the suspected problem. It was lying on the ground. I saw it fall out of the gun. There is nothing in the rulebook that says the bullet has to still be lodged in the barrel, it just says we have to find evidence to confirm the suspected problem. In this case, it was suspected that a round was stuck in the rifling. When we witnessed the round fall out of the rifling the suspicion was confirmed. Case closed.

Range is Clear is not issued until the suspected problem is resolved. In the case of a suspected squib you if possible verify whether there is an obstruction or not where you stopped the shooter. If it is not possible to verify the squib at the line then you verify that the chamber is empty, issue ICHDH and then send the shooter with an authorized range official to the safety area to verify if there is an obstruction. A loose bullet falling out of the port or magwell does not mean they had a squib. What evidence do you have that the shooter experienced a squib load rather than an improperly loaded round that came apart in the magazine and caused the gun to jamb? Did you hear a poof instead of a bang?

If I have a shooter drop the mag from the gun and then fail to chamber a round from a fresh mag, I will suspect they have a squib that was not caught. As long as they are still trying to clear a jam using the original mag it is still just a jam until I see unfired cases come out of the port, the slide well on its way to closing but failing, or some other indication that something is stuck in the chamber that is stopping the round from feeding. I as an RO need to document what was unsafe about the competitors gun. Having a jam is not unsafe.

Again, the squib, as written in the rules, is but an example of something unsafe. Unless you're being willfully obtuse you would recognize that there are obviously other unsafe situations as well that the rule above would cover.

A bullet lodged in the rifling could easily be an unsafe situation requiring an RO to yell "stop."

[Poppa Bear]

Under your argument, if someone grabs a squib rod, and clears the bullet from the barrel before the RO allows him to holster and call RIC, then they get a reshoot.

Did anyone call "STOP!" ?

True story. Open shooter has a squib about 1/3 into the stage. Calls back for his squib rod. RO asks "Do you want to stop?" Response is "I have 2 minutes to clear this thing and if you call stop I will want a reshoot for RO interference." Because the shooter PAUSED himself to clear the malfunction we do not have a problem.

It is about safety, but it is also dependent on the experience of the shooter. You have a squib that you do not catch yourself and I will stop you if I catch it. Once STOP is called the COF is over for that shooter until it is verified as a squib or not.

Bsdubois00 post supplied visual evidence that we were dealing with an obstruction and the shooter was still trying to feed a new round in to continue the COF. That is a safety issue and the correct call is to stop the shooter. The visual observations supported a call of a squib. The bullet falling out was not enough to satisfy my definition of a squib, but coupled with the attempts to load a round from a fresh magazine does satisfy that definition because now I know we were not just dealing with a bad magazine jam.

My stance through this entire thread has been one of accountability. If the RO calls STOP they had better be able to back up their call with something more than I Think.

[JAFO]

A little off topic, but I have two questions on your true story. How does one clear a squib during a COF with a squib rod and not get DQ'd for sweeping? If the RO has not cleared the shooter, the gun is still considered hot. And is calling for a squib rod considered asking for assistance?

[Poppa Bear]

...I would argue that the evidence of an unsafe condition was found in this instance.

State your case. What unsafe condition was present after the range was made safe.

The unsafe condition was present prior to the range being made clear. Hence the declaration "range is clear."

The whole "squib" thing is but one example. There are other examples of an unsafe gun or ammunition. What about a gun that doubles constantly? That's an unsafe gun, right? So the RO yells stop, the competitor unloads and shows clear, and then what? You believe one must prove with an unloaded gun that it will double in order to justify the call? Nonsense.

And in this case I obviously found evidence that confirmed the suspected problem. It was lying on the ground. I saw it fall out of the gun. There is nothing in the rulebook that says the bullet has to still be lodged in the barrel, it just says we have to find evidence to confirm the suspected problem. In this case, it was suspected that a round was stuck in the rifling. When we witnessed the round fall out of the rifling the suspicion was confirmed. Case closed.

Range is Clear is not issued until the suspected problem is resolved. In the case of a suspected squib you if possible verify whether there is an obstruction or not where you stopped the shooter. If it is not possible to verify the squib at the line then you verify that the chamber is empty, issue ICHDH and then send the shooter with an authorized range official to the safety area to verify if there is an obstruction. A loose bullet falling out of the port or magwell does not mean they had a squib. What evidence do you have that the shooter experienced a squib load rather than an improperly loaded round that came apart in the magazine and caused the gun to jamb? Did you hear a poof instead of a bang?

If I have a shooter drop the mag from the gun and then fail to chamber a round from a fresh mag, I will suspect they have a squib that was not caught. As long as they are still trying to clear a jam using the original mag it is still just a jam until I see unfired cases come out of the port, the slide well on its way to closing but failing, or some other indication that something is stuck in the chamber that is stopping the round from feeding. I as an RO need to document what was unsafe about the competitors gun. Having a jam is not unsafe.

Again, the squib, as written in the rules, is but an example of something unsafe. Unless you're being willfully obtuse you would recognize that there are obviously other unsafe situations as well that the rule above would cover.

A bullet lodged in the rifling could easily be an unsafe situation requiring an RO to yell "stop."

Correct. You as the RO need to back up that call.

One of the reasons 5.7.7 is written the way it is is to ensure that the problem actually exists. Otherwise the RO could call STOP, say you have a squib, and then zero your stage.

A true story. I had some rounds loaded up with Clays that i was getting rid of during a practice match. Most of my ammo was loaded with Universal. The RO heard BANG, BANG, POP and almost called STOP but knew me well enough to know that I would recognize if I had a squib. Hearing several more POPS intermixed with the BANGS he figured I was shooting mixed ammo and asked about it after the stage was over with.

[Poppa Bear]

A little off topic, but I have two questions on your true story. How does one clear a squib during a COF with a squib rod and not get DQ'd for sweeping? If the RO has not cleared the shooter, the gun is still considered hot. And is calling for a squib rod considered asking for assistance?

Squib rod is one of the 90 degree angled ones. He pushed the short end into the ground and then pushed the muzzle down on the long side. The shooter can always ask for assistance. It is up to the RO if they are willing to provide it. In this case as memory serves the squib had enough behind it that it exited the barrel so he loaded up a mag and finished the stage.

[sperman]

. The shooter can always ask for assistance.

Really?

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

[spanky]

There was a squib AT "stop." As evidenced by the bullet falling out of the barrel AFTER stop and obviously not only by the power of the powder propulsion.

No reshoot IMO.

Edited May 7, 2013 by spanky

[Poppa Bear]

. The shooter can always ask for assistance.

Really?

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request.

[spanky]

. The shooter can always ask for assistance.

Really?

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request.

This was a level 2 match.

[Alphamikefoxtrot]

OK, what about the instance where the shooter is told to stop because the RO suspects a squib. The shooter, like the op's shooter, has tried to feed a few different mags into the gun, none of which worked. Upon ULSC, a bullet falls out of the chamber. Is that gun sufficiently clear of a squib? NO.

What if the original issue was a round without enough crimp and the bullet was pulled out of the case and stuck in the rifling. Upon insertion of the second mag, the same thing happened. The round was forced into the chamber, pushing the original bullet further into the barrel. The second bullet was also pulled from the case during the shooters attempt to clear the first jam. Upon ULSC, the SECOND bullet falls out of the barrel. Is the RO to assume that the squib is now clear? Nope, he is almost always going to put something down the barrel to check. THAT, my friends, is when the determination is made whether or not there was a squib in the barrel per the rules. If you apply that to the case in point, the RO would find out that there wasn't a squib, because the only one in there in this instance was the one that fell out. Shooter gets the reshoot.

Remember guys, we aren't looking for a reason to give the shooter a zero for the stage. We just want him to be safe and not destroy his equipment. If there is a situation like this, the RO is almost always going to err on the side of the shooter unless he is just being obtuse.

This is a real gray area and I think it could go either way. 99% of the time, the squib isn't going to just fall out the back of the barrel. But if it is me, I'm arguing that when the squib rod was used to check for a squib, none was found, and I want my reshoot.

[Nik Habicht]

This is a real gray area and I think it could go either way. 99% of the time, the squib isn't going to just fall out the back of the barrel. But if it is me, I'm arguing that when the squib rod was used to check for a squib, none was found, and I want my reshoot.

Hope you have another lot of ammo at that point. Might dq the ammo.....

[EkuJustice]

So do you do that to every shooter that has a singleammo problem?

[Nik Habicht]

Depends on what the problem is.....

Each call is individually made, based on the specific circumstances at hand....

[cas]

It may have been a squib, but how was it unsafe? He couldn't chamber a round. Without he ability to chamber a round there's no way bad things could happen. It was just a malfunction.

[remoandiris]

It may have been a squib, but how was it unsafe? He couldn't chamber a round. Without he ability to chamber a round there's no way bad things could happen. It was just a malfunction.

Squibs are malfunctions, Rule 5.7.7.

[JAFO]

It may have been a squib, but how was it unsafe? He couldn't chamber a round. Without he ability to chamber a round there's no way bad things could happen. It was just a malfunction.

Is it possible to smack the back of a slide hard enough to force a squib into the barrel far enough to chamber the next round? I imagine that depends highly on how far into the barrel the squib sticks, but if a squib is keeping the slide just out of battery, I could see someone smacking the slide closed and then bad things would happen.

Besides that, the way that 5.7.7 reads, the RO can terminate the course of fire upon suspicion of a squib. No evidence is needed to terminate the course, the evidence is required to determine whether there's a reshoot.

Edited May 15, 2013 by JAFO

[JayWord]

Before, this gets out of hand you might want to discuss the outcome of a missed squib with one of the shooters on Saturday at the SS.

Neither the shooter or RO heard it due to the wall configuration. Next round split the hood and locked up the gun tight. We measured the distance and determined there was no live round in the chamber and the shooter is now out a destroyed barrel and maybe a gun once his gunsmith pounds/beats the gun apart. Luckly, no one was hurt, but that is why we take squibs so seriously.

5.7.4 states the competitor, not the competitor and the rest of his squad, has 2 minutes to fix the issue.

8.6.2.1 was added to allow assistance to newer shooters without penalty. Therefore, if the shooter is not a newer shooter he ishould not be entitled to assistance from anyone except for safety even in a Level 1 match.

The above is my opinion.

Jay