Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

draw time


sk330lc
 Share

Recommended Posts

What should your average time be, for drawing while wearing concealment (a vest) and shooting the zero down cirle on an IDPA target at 10yards? I've been at the 1.3sec to 1.2sec mark for some time and can't seem to improve. what are your times doing similar draws? thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Average out the same..CDP Ex,SSP/ESP Ma,but will only shoot SSP/ESP 1 or 2 times a year..i will just stop when i hit the 1 sec or below 2 or 3 times. usually i will do 10 to start with ,then end with 5 when i finish up or will do 15yd heads shots..

Pics below were from a few yrs back during a practice session shot from concealment and a 7 yrd target.. My comfort zone is in the 1.20 to 1.30 range on any target out to 10yds and in the 1.20 and below for close targets..

Pic 44, 2nd one, was the best run,.85 draw.16 split 1.01 for 2 shots..this was of the group of 5 practice draws,which was done after shooting the 45ACP for a couple hrs.

Use to work several state matchs a year,and when running shooters i kinda kept track of the different class of shooters and their draw time..Found out real fast that all Ma shooters don't draw that quick ,but were very confident in their draw,as in smooth and fast., and the 1st couple shots were fast and zero down...Now the SS/MM shooters would try and do the same and be pretty close,say 1.65 or so,but would almost always drop 2 to 3 points every time,increasing their time by 1 or 2 seconds.. Having a more constant draw each draw is better then 1 good 3 ok,and 6 bad on a 10 stage match.. 10 draws at a match 1.50 to 1.60 beats 4=1.65,3=1.75 3=1.95..or 17.70 vs 15.50=2.20 win ..just some thoughts,cause i've lost several 1st place matchs at .39 to 1.10 range..

go here: http://www.andersonshooting.com/

get this: http://shop.andersonshooting.com/books.html

the 2 book set,work it and you will see improvements

post-4535-0-13402500-1364923877_thumb.jp

post-4535-0-01514600-1364923922_thumb.jp

post-4535-0-47193100-1364923952_thumb.jp

post-4535-0-87986200-1364924950_thumb.jp

Edited by GmanCdp
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are some good techniques in Matt Burkett's video that have helped me have a consistent .85- .95 draw at 7 yards ( non concealed). The key for me was minimizing extra movement (not hunching my upper back ), and to work up to that speed. Another good resource is Steve Anderson's dry fire books. Good luck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you. guess I should have stated CDP -ss and SSP-ex .. have to figure out how to shave a few tenths off.

If you shave a few tenths off, you'll be as much as 1 second faster for an entire match. Are you sure that's where you should be focusing your effort?

If your transitions, accuracy and (lastly) splits are comparable, you should probably be classifying MA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you. guess I should have stated CDP -ss and SSP-ex .. have to figure out how to shave a few tenths off.

If you shave a few tenths off, you'll be as much as 1 second faster for an entire match. Are you sure that's where you should be focusing your effort?

If your transitions, accuracy and (lastly) splits are comparable, you should probably be classifying MA.

Very true. I have a lot to work on . this is just something I noticed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shoot the A's, if you take the time to do the math you'll find-- The point (.9) or whatever it is, not worth the C,C or C,D and for sure not D,D. Over all in a match consistent speed and points will do you right.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you. guess I should have stated CDP -ss and SSP-ex .. have to figure out how to shave a few tenths off.

If you shave a few tenths off, you'll be as much as 1 second faster for an entire match. Are you sure that's where you should be focusing your effort?

If your transitions, accuracy and (lastly) splits are comparable, you should probably be classifying MA.

Very true. I have a lot to work on . this is just something I noticed.

My point (which may not have been clearly stated) is that 1.3 from concealment, consistently hitting the down zero, is damn fast. If you can draw and shoot (accurately) that fast, but are still classed as SS/EX, there is probably some low-hanging fruit in other areas that will give you fairly dramatic performance improvement.

I just did a weekend class with ben stoeger, and he had us chasing 1 second draw times (uspsa equipment). He gave the impression that we all had a LOT more important stuff to do than worry about getting much below that for now, that better movement and transitions is where we'd really gain. For me it takes .2-.3 extra to draw from a non-real-world(meow)competition-only concealment garment.

That doesn't mean stop working on your draw. It's still important, especially in short stages and classifiers. I just wouldn't really focus on the draw right now if I were you. My advice is to figure out where you suck the most compared to local master class shooters, and work hard on those areas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My transitions do need work. shooting targets to my far left need work as well . my hits are alway in the far left of the -1 and -3 zones. have yet to figure out why. has to do with the angle and my line of sight. any ideas?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 months later...

My transitions do need work. shooting targets to my far left need work as well . my hits are alway in the far left of the -1 and -3 zones. have yet to figure out why. has to do with the angle and my line of sight. any ideas?

Since NPA and the "turret" became all the rage in this game, I just haven't noticed anyone discussing the LIMITS of the "turret" turn.

Perhaps you can train your limits better. I'm sure you can work up a COF/Drill that addresses this issue.

Perhaps there is some point in your rotation where it's just too far and you gotta shift your feet.

The end goal as I see it for what you describe is: Find a way to not fight the rest of your body to get those shots. All the fighting with yourself should be over when the buzzer sounds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

You guys are fast. My draw time to first shot for IPSC is around 1.8 s in dry fire practice and 2 seconds at a match, for a first target at ten yards. When I try to push it faster, I fumble my grip and then I have to readjust my grip after the first shot and loose time there.

I definitely need to practice my draw.

Is it normal for the draw to be slower in a match context? I would tend to think so because of the nervousness and adrenaline, but your views on that would be apreciated, Is there a way to relax so that the draw time and accuracy remains as accurate and fast during a match as in practice?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Times in dry fire are always faster than in live fire. that being said, your match and practice times should be the same because you should be spending a fair amount of your training time at match speed and know what that is. You also need to push the speed in training with the use of a par timer. Pick a par time for a drill and then do it until you can repeat it consistently with at least 90% As. Then drop the par time and repeat ...

If your match times are slower than training then among other things you are not shooting subconsciously. You are still thinking about your shooting using your conscious mind. The conscious mind can only do one thing at a time which is very slow since shooting requires you to do many things at the same time.

Mike Seeklander and Lanny Bassen both have excellent training books that deal with this topic, which is ignored by most of the average shooters and a religion for the top shooters ...

BTW, If you are constantly shooting left of target, particularly center left that is classic trigger jerk. You must fix this before you worry about ANY other skill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the tips, Nimitz.

Speaking of shooting subconsciously I was at a match today where many targets had hardcover. We also had mini targets (half the size of the classic targets). I had no problems with the mini targets at ten meters (equivalent to a full size at twenty meters) but the regular size ones with hardcover really slowed me down, even at five meters. Because of the unfamiliar geometry, I had to think about a point of aim, especially for the ones where the hardcover black was applied diagonally. I got my sights on the visible part of the A zone, but I had to mentally double chack check that I was aiming at the right spot. On a regular shaped target, I do not have to think. I look at the target and align my sights on the center of the A zone without thinking.

Guess I will have not only to practice with a timer, but also practice more with partials.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

yes, your training should include whatever types of targets you can expect to see at a match. You don't want the first time you see a target to be under match conditions. Partials, no-shoots, swingers, movers, long distance steel are all good things to include. And don't forget the SHO and WHO shooting as well ...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the tips, Nimitz.

Speaking of shooting subconsciously I was at a match today where many targets had hardcover. We also had mini targets (half the size of the classic targets). I had no problems with the mini targets at ten meters (equivalent to a full size at twenty meters) but the regular size ones with hardcover really slowed me down, even at five meters. Because of the unfamiliar geometry, I had to think about a point of aim, especially for the ones where the hardcover black was applied diagonally. I got my sights on the visible part of the A zone, but I had to mentally double chack check that I was aiming at the right spot. On a regular shaped target, I do not have to think. I look at the target and align my sights on the center of the A zone without thinking.

Guess I will have not only to practice with a timer, but also practice more with partials.

Well, maybe you need to add half-targets to your practice, and/or put some 2-inch target dots on the cardboard (like one INSIDE each corner of the A-Zone) and shoot for them while still keeping everything out of the C or -1.

One of my favorite stories of needing to know not only what YOU can do, but also the gun/ammo combo, was one of Ayoob's accounts of an LE incident where the responders were pinned down about 100 yards from the trailer because the perp was armed with an old WWI or WWII bolt gun and was showing some ability to hit them from there. The experience LEO tried for a few head shots from good concealment but no effect was noted. After the perp was down, they found a nice 5-round group next to the porch light, just above line of sight to where the offender's head was when challenging them. Our officer held over way to much, having read too much about the leisurely velocities of his .45 ACP ammo.

Me, I knew what I could hit on a 100-yard B-27 target when I was a college sophomore, using a .38. Had a clue when I was 17, but knew for sure by then. I just didn't have the speed part in the mix yet.

So shoot for the corner of that A Zone, with both horizontal and vertical borders at play, and you won't have to *think* during a match.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

The speed of your draw is dictated by your weak hand. Snap your weak hand to the proper position. This will help.

Check out Matt Burkett's website or Mike Seeklander's DVDs.

My live fire ten yard draws are sub 1 second---B class --. My 40yd draws are probably in the 1.8 second range.

During a match, I am happy with 1.3 draw.

Remember in a local match there are probably 5 draws and about the same number of reloads sans SS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMO there is more time to be lost than gained going for a fast draw. You may gain a few tenths, but a bad grip is going to cost you on every shot. I strive for a solid consistent grip on every draw. I work on getting my grip, getting the gun up, and a sight picture. I'm not a Master class shooter; 1.8 is my practice par time.

How many times do you draw and fire from the same spot in a match? I know the majority of the time I am drawing and moving into a shooting position before the first shot.

Edited by Tul9033
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've noticed that when I really on focusing on drawing fast, I can get that 1 sec draw at 7 yards. The problem is that I speed everything after that way up too...beyond what I am accurately able to do at the moment. Any ideas about separating those from the draw?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've noticed that when I really on focusing on drawing fast, I can get that 1 sec draw at 7 yards. The problem is that I speed everything after that way up too...beyond what I am accurately able to do at the moment. Any ideas about separating those from the draw?

Try a drill where you need to draw, then move a bit, then set up and make long shots on steel. You will learn to settle down in a hurry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Ben! I'll give that a go. I guess I could do essentially the same in dry fire too...?

And so you know, I got the draw as a direct result of following your advice after taking your class a couple weeks ago in Atlanta!

To anyone else that might be reading...I'm a B class shooter, been shooting about 2.5 years. Finally took a class with Stoeger, and can confidently say I can see a path to master in the next year. If you can swing it, take one of his classes! It's pretty awesome for a turtle one week removed from a class to be seeking advice on how to handle this new speed!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Ben! I'll give that a go. I guess I could do essentially the same in dry fire too...?

And so you know, I got the draw as a direct result of following your advice after taking your class a couple weeks ago in Atlanta!

To anyone else that might be reading...I'm a B class shooter, been shooting about 2.5 years. Finally took a class with Stoeger, and can confidently say I can see a path to master in the next year. If you can swing it, take one of his classes! It's pretty awesome for a turtle one week removed from a class to be seeking advice on how to handle this new speed!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

I agree with a few of the others that are suggesting that your draw is very good and shouldn't be as much of a concern to you. The difference for me between classing EX to classing MA was mostly found in less points down. I see a lot of EX shooters at matches with lightning fast draws and screaming mag changes but they average 6 or more downs per stage.

About two years ago I got a chance to shoot on a squad with some really great guys including Vogel. The crazy thing was that even though he was faster than us his downs we're incredibly low at only 11 for the whole match! My times on most stages were within a second or two of his on the shorter stages and within 3 or 4 on the longer ones. At the end though I didn't have a single stage that I wasn't 5 seconds or more behind his scores because I just couldn't keep up with his pace and still get my hits.

Check out some of the draw times of some really great shooters sometime. You may be surprised by how many of them have a draw the same as yours or slower.

Follow up question for you...

Do you spend a lot of time drawing from less common positions like sitting or kneeling. I suffered from a severe lack of attention to those odd start positions for a long time and once I began to practice them I gained a ton of ground at matches.

Good luck with everything!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...