Indiana James Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I was up at the Reno Area Match. Some guys shoot through. They cost my squad about 45 minutes. If the RO's shoot Thursday, why are people shooting through. My squad showed up on time. My squad followed the schedule. My squad had wives to get back to. My squad paid the same price to shoot. Why should we be delayed for someone else. If they can't be there a day, OK do a make-up shoot after the scheduled squads shoot. They should have no right to delay those following the schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Two SV guys shot through with our squad but they worked the Josey Wales squad thereafter. The Brazilian juggernauts shot with us on one stage Saturday and when I ran into them that night at the Nugget, they said they didn't have to get up early for their 7:30 stage because they already shot it with my squad! >: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 This is why we have Rule 6.6.1. If the Match Director doesn't authorise people to skip the schedule, they're not entitled to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Until Vince's post I was thinking of targets shoot-through... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberkid Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 If those folks are just shooting through to gain a schedule that better fits them, screw em. However, I got a shoot through at the Nats so as to help get caught up with my squad due to a situation beyond anyones control. Mr. Amidon, as well as the range officers of the stages in question were extremely helpful. I didnt feel the need to offer anyone an explanation as to why I got a shoot through, just that I did. I guess I'm just saying that you shouldnt be pissed because someone got a shoot through, they may have a totally justifiable reason for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h4444 Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I've had to shoot through at an area match once before..... It was either shoot through or in my situation, no shoot at all........ I didn't want to do it.... I felt bad for the interuption, I did my best to slide in at the end of stages, I stayed away from stages that were bottlenecked, I did all I could to be courteous and unintrusive. The flipside is,,,,,there was ZERO advantage to me. Actually, it killed my performance, I had no rythymn the whole match, I was running my ass off trying to catch stages between squads etc. Once, I finished a stage between squads and was working to help reset the stage and guess what,,,,I walk to the line of the next stage without reloading mags. I usually reload right after shooting, but since I was helping reset, I didn't do that,,,,,only zerod a high point stage for that one. Like I said, I didn't want to do it for many of the reasons you sighted, but I did my best to minimize hassle. My performance sucked, but I still had fun and I'm sure my entry fee helped subsidize someone on the prize table. It isn't always the most convenient when someone has to shoot through, but if they have permission as Vince pointed out, they are a fellow shooter that may have had no choice, but are coming out and participating. Shooting through did take out some of the enjoyment,,,,I didn't get the opportunity to BS with the guys,,,,,etc. The comaraderie (sp?) is a lot of the reason I do this outside the competition, so it was a part that was missing for me that day. I understand how you feel, but at the same time if there aren't excessive shoot throughs, I support them because to be honest many of our matches need the revenue generated by the entries to keep them viable and it does help a few more people participate when their personal situations would prevent them from otherwise doing so. H4444 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Only time I don't mind seeing this is when the people shooting through are RO's, helped to run the match, or set up the match. I will also admit to having asked to shoot through at some of our local matches when I had to "Shoot and Scoot" off to work, but I always asked the RM, and if I was told no, then that was that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I agree that there are always situations that require folks shooting through and I have no problem with that. Emergencies, or having to work... no problem. But... at Area 4 this year, we were running 14 shooters on our squad. It seemed like every stage a couple of folks would come up and shoot through. Then on one stage, SEVEN people came up as a group and the RO let them shoot with our squad. Now folks, it takes a while to run 14 people through a stage but can you imagine 21? It's a small thing really, but it sure seemed to make a long stage. dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carinab Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I once had to shoot through the nationals because I was still nursing my then three month old daughter. Every two hours she had to eat. She'd get one bottle, so I had four hours uninterrupted. It is a match killer for all the reasons previously listed. You don't get to really walk through because you generally show up towards the end of a squad. Your match will almost always suffer. Shooting through takes the fun out of it. It would have been even less fun had someone hassled me. There is generally a good reason for the shoot through otherwise the RM wouldn't allow it. Course the RO's can limit how many shoot throughs join a squad too so it shouldn't be so hectic. RO's on occassion have been known to allow an entire squad to shoot their stage ahead of schedule as insurance against looming bad weather, etc. Turn it around, you're at the range (always a good thing) and you get to watch a couple extra shooters (I enjoy watching anyone shoot). Outside of the schedule hoppers, the folks shooting through probably don't want to be doing it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I don't have a big problem with the occasional shoot-through, but a whole batch of them (or even the same one-two tagging along for several stages) gets annoying. Perhaps there should be a max-one-shoot-through-per-five-squad-shooters or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnshapiro Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I shot through once. On a Friday night I got a call that my son had broken his leg. It was too late to get a flight and my wife had everything under control and encouraged me to shoot the regular schedule on Saturday. But that didn't feel right. So the MD allowed me to shoot through Saturday morning so that I could catch an early flight home. My wife was happy with that. Big thanks to the MD! Sometimes it happens. Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Liota and I shot through Area 4 the first day, and then spent the second day laying out the prizes equitably by division (and the third day setting up the prize tables with all the trinkets). We shot some stages by ourselves (I find it very amusing to tape the last squad's holes, then shoot, then tape my own targets. No good reason, it just amuses me), and some with other squads. Since I hate shoot-through geeks who REFUSE to tape (like the group of four who shot through my squad at the Nationals this year), I'm usually Johnny-on-the-spot with the roll of tape. That backfired on me when I hit the Army squad, as the yellow-shirt types were in "lounge" mode instead of "tape and set" mode. If it wasn't for some hard working C and D class types who had been squadded with 'em, they would STILL be at Area 4. I found myself to be one of two on the squad of 14 who was taping...time to go, at that point. I got to shoot with or at least watch almost all the squads. Most were hard charging types, some were not. The same goes, I suspect, for shoot-through folks All that said...I really hate lazy shoot through folks. Such as...the four who were shooting through my squad at the Nationals this year. Not a piece of tape or a can of paint sullied their little French fingers, oh no. And that I hate. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterLefty Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 But... at Area 4 this year, we were running 14 shooters on our squad. It seemed like every stage a couple of folks would come up and shoot through. Then on one stage, SEVEN people came up as a group and the RO let them shoot with our squad. DJ, I don't know what happened there, but Wayne and Kenneth controlled the shoot-thru passes and told everyone including the ROs no more than 2 shoot thrus per squad. This was because of the number of shooters in each squad and the schedule. Fred and I held passes and while I was told that we could bump anywhere in the top three slots on a squad, I always told the RO to drop us into the mix and we would grab tape and go to work. If we saw another shoot thru at a stage we would pass that squad and wait. We also started at 12 and worked back to stage 1 so as not to inconvience the same squad more than once. Kenny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Perhaps it's time for a "Proper Shoot-Thru Etiquette" thread. As in: Good shoot thrus- Shoot when asked to This might well be first if the squad is just getting there.. You're the one in a hurry to be elsewhere, right? Don't ask to be '3-down' if everybody just got there. Help tape and reset A shoot-thru pass is not a no-work pass. Don't come in groups One or two, OK. More, bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 From the staff perspective, I really don't have a big problem with shoot-thru's as stuff comes up. This year at Nationals we had the Junior shoot-thru's which was cool (and we expected them). We also had a couple people come through that were trying to get done with the match, so they could get back to Florida before the next projected hurricane hit. As long as it is a valid excuse, and approved by the RM (or MD), I've got no problem with them. I just ask that they have a 'get outta jail free' card signed by the RM or MD (not a problem at Nationals), so I know that it is an approved shoot-thru, and I try to put them at the front of the squad. That way, I don't mess up the squad shooting order, and since they are shooting thru.... let's move them on to the next stage.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I had to shoot through for several stages at Area 4 due to being assigned to the wrong squad..... my score sheets said one thing, the squad list said another.... didn't get caught until a couple stages were shot. The R.O. at the stage that caught that I wasn't on their squad list (even though my scoresheet stickers placed with me my current squad) wouldn't let me shoot, accused me of trying to "shoot through". Right. SO off to the stat shack I go - Me: Explained situation. Stat shack: What?? Me: Explained again. Stat shack: "Oops, so sorry, here's a shoot through pass, catch up with your REAL squad". Me: "Couldn't I just stay with my current squad to minimize disruption?" Stat shack: "No. Catch up with your squad." Me: "Is it really my squad if my score sheets say something else, and I haven't shot with the other squad yet?" Stat shack: "No - catch up with your squad." They were nice enough to give me a ride on a 4 wheeler to my new squad, though, thanks. Shot several stages on shoot through, got caught up, had the good luck to shoot mostly when it wasn't raining, and had better shooters in my squad to boot, so overall it actually helped me. But there were alot of shoot throughs going on though, and it is frustrating to have people show up for 1 day of a 3 day match because "otherwise they couldn't shoot". If the match is structured that way, shoot in 1, 2 or 3 days your choice, fine. But otherwise figure out how to make it work like the rest of us. Maybe if enough people that otherwise would be unable to shoot a 3, 4, or 7 day match complained, they would fix matches to be more efficient and shorter. Without shoot throughs upon request for "certain levels" of shooters, the matches would be forced to be better planned. Just MHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana James Posted October 6, 2004 Author Share Posted October 6, 2004 I like's Shred's idea - shot through etiquette. All right! Let's all agree to something and stick to it. Besides - Shred on the National's SuperSquad. You know Squad 30 - they had a DVD made for them!!! Indy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 I had to shoot through for several stages at Area 4 due to being assigned to the wrong squad..... my score sheets said one thing, the squad list said another.... didn't get caught until a couple stages were shot. Hmmmm, sounds like either the stages did not have a squad list, or the staff was not checking people in on every stage. But there were alot of shoot throughs going on though, and it is frustrating to have people show up for 1 day of a 3 day match because "otherwise they couldn't shoot". If the match is structured that way, shoot in 1, 2 or 3 days your choice, fine. But otherwise figure out how to make it work like the rest of us. I guess I didn't realize that the reason for the shoot-thrus was to shorten the match for one or more people. In my original response I said 'as long as it's a valid excuse'. While I am sure that not everyone will agree, I do NOT think that granting a bunch of people shoot-thrus just to make the match a little more convenient for them, is a valid excuse. However, I DO think that granting shoot-thrus that allowed our Juniors to attend Nationals, or shoot-thrus to try to get home before something like a hurricane hits, are valid excuses.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 DJ,I don't know what happened there, but Wayne and Kenneth controlled the shoot-thru passes and told everyone including the ROs no more than 2 shoot thrus per squad. This was because of the number of shooters in each squad and the schedule. Kenny Kenny, I was only relating an experience. I understand some people shooting through. Match staff, vendors, hurricane watchers, etc. I really do understand. Although I didn't shoot as well as I would have liked, this was my first area match and I had an absolute ball. I wasn't going to let folks who had to shoot through mess it up for me. I was having too much fun. dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterLefty Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 DJ, I am glad that you enjoyed the match. That is the important part. I was just bemused that you got hit with 7 walk ons when I was told to allow no more that 2 per squad and stage. Kenny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 I have seen a larger match that let GM's shoot through because they had a schedule to meet. Didn't really upset the pace of the match but I didn't really see why they were allowed to shoot through? Lady won high lady and guy was 2nd or 3rd over all. Neither was there to accept their awards. TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 I have seen the same sponsored shooter shoot through in no less than 5 state and area matches in the past year and a half. I do not know the reason, but it gives me a bad feeling that I have seen it so many times. Maybe there is a valid reason for it. This shooter has a sponsor, and a very important job in the real world, but I still don't understand. I am feeling like I should have kept this to myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 I've seen a few big-names shoot-through because they're working the sponsors table in the vendor tent. So long as they're working and not "working", I've got no problem with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri Burst Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 The squad I shot with at the NATS had people shoot through although I wouldn't call it shoot throughs. They stayed with us for 2-3 stages. That happens twice and the part the REALLY sucks is they didn't help with pasting and resetting props then they moved with us to the next stage. I was JUST ABOUT READY to say something, and those who know me know I do not have any diplomacy, when they left. That's probably lucky for me. The only time anyone should be allowed to Shoot Through is when they are working the match. If you can't shoot with either the RO's, 1 day, or on the regular scheduled "days" of the match then stay home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rishii Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 the last time I shot the Desert Classic, the Burner shot thru with my squad, he stayed with us for a couple of stages. prior to his shooting the stage, he was total focused, you could see the gears running in his head, afterwards, he would lighten up, and all of us, who had never been so close to shooting god, picked his brain big time. he answered all the questions, gave pointers, etc. he was also out there taping targets, re-setting steel with the rest of us for every shooter on the squad. a total class act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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